pst 0 #1 May 7, 2003 Hey there all, I have been jumping a Turbo Z 165 for the last 150 jumps and I have learned a great deal off of it, but it is time to downsize. I weigh 135 with an exit weight of about 150. I was looking at a batwing 116. Does anyone have any imput on this canopy, both positive and negative views would be great. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bwilling 0 #2 May 7, 2003 Quotebut it is time to downsize Why is it time to downsize? "If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #3 May 7, 2003 how many total jumps? And what is your dz elevation? Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #4 May 7, 2003 I like my batwing although I don't jump it much anymore. I mostly jump my 119 Saphire. It (the batwing) is one of the canopies that if you get line twists, your more than likely gonna have to chop it. I have a 116 with a speed kit on it. It has tons of flare at the end but is extremely ground hungry. Alot of people who have never jumped one will probably tell you not to get it. I changed to my saphire because I was doing some bigger stuff and I was dropping out of the sky too quickly and didn't have alot of glide or hover ability and some people just don't watch for others under canopy. I had to land on a road once because someone didnt' notice me, even though I was yelling at the top of my lungs and the people on the ground could hear me - he didn't and I ended up landing on the road (no injuries). This is not the canopy's fault. Going from a 165 to a 116 is a huge step down. Please reconsider something a little bigger or at least a few jumps on a 150ish, then a 135ish before attempting a 116. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pst 0 #5 May 7, 2003 I have 215 total jumps and about 35 as of late on a Sabre 135. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #6 May 7, 2003 seems to me to be kind a largish canopy progression.But, regardless, have you demoed the canopy or even one similar to it? Correct me if I'm wrong but the Batwing is a 116 ft2 zero p elliptical, right? Your current experience is on a 165ft2 f11 square. I wouldn't jump on a canopy just because it seems like a good deal( if that is your reason) or because the person trying to sell the canopy is telling you how wonderful and easy to fly it is. DEMO other canopies. hell at least demo that one.I personally won't but anything unless I jump it first.Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
R00tj00se 0 #7 May 7, 2003 More important than anything else - do you know what crossports are???? (Sorry - I had to!) Regards the Batwing. I put a few jumps on a 135 but it had lots of jumps on it, was very porous (took longer than my spectre to open) and the lines were getting on a bit so my opinion of it may be slightly jaded. I only know 2 people who have jumped batwings and they both like them. Only advice I can give is if you want to know - go try it. However, jumping from your current canopy to a 116 at your jump numbers would be considered slightly excessive unless you are very skilled - but then again, that's not what you were asking, is it?. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #8 May 7, 2003 thats a really big jump even from a 135 saber, be VERY careful man!! http://precision.aerodynamics.com/top/batwing.htm here is Precisions page on the batwing, which for some reason is hidden on there webpage I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adamjenner 0 #9 May 7, 2003 165 to 116? BIG jump there...be careful! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #10 May 7, 2003 Hi, Firstly, thanks for posting and not just running out and buying. I know the 116 seems like a cool possiblity, please please consider the following: 1) Theres a huge difference in flight characteristics between the turbo and the batwing. 2) That is a massive downsize - it's never a good idea to downsize so dramatically (and change flight characteristics). I suggest working your way down to that size and type. 3) Have you asked any of the instructors or knowledgable canopy pilots at the DZ if they think you are ready for this type of canopy, or if there is something else out there that will give you what you're looking for and keep it in your skill range? 4) Think you can land a 116 in a backyard, downwind with trees all around it? There a million other questions, but I think most appropriately is the question "Why?". What are you looking to gain over your current canopy? What about switching to something like a Crossfire2, sabre2, etc in the 150 range then moving down from there? I know you're asking about the canopy itself, but no-one here can give you the answers you are looking for until we know what it is that you are trying to accopmplish under canopy. If you're interested. please feel free to PM me to discuss this in detail. ----- Edit ----- FYI - Straight from Precisions website Quotewe recommend 1,000 jumps experience for its use. ----- Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #11 May 7, 2003 I jumped the splatwing a few times.. didn't really like it.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #12 May 7, 2003 your profile says you have a 220ish reserve..Do your hardness suport that big differens in canopi sizes or do you get a new hardness aswell? I dont know about the canopi you ask about sorry.. Stay safe Stefan Faber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ERICCONNELLY 0 #13 May 7, 2003 As others here have said. Seems to be a big jump in size. As far as the Batwing goes tho. I LOVE MINE!! I did demo though and went from a 160 Triathlon to my 153 BW. Only 7ft2 difference but a BIG difference in handling. Be safe. ETR Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #14 May 8, 2003 That's a pretty large step (165 to 116) I'd recomend going to no less than a 134 Batwing, and suggest a 153, because of the radical difference in planform. And with as cheap as Batwings can be had for now, you can by 3 or so for the price of one brand new canopy.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #15 May 8, 2003 QuoteI put a few jumps on a 135 but it had lots of jumps on it, was very porous Just wanted to point out that ZP is just that, Zero Porosity. It doesn't change......---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #16 May 8, 2003 I was under the impression that the "ZPness" of a canopy eventually wears out. Is that wrong? --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #17 May 8, 2003 Don't think a splatwing is made to support higher wing loadings. I may be wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #18 May 8, 2003 I believe that it is actually coating over the material (not 100% positive). And yes...it most definately does get porus over time/jumps. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmddave 0 #19 May 8, 2003 One of the guys at my dz jumps a batwing 116. He's 225 out the door and has survived the landings so far. Oh, we're at 5200 msl also. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
R00tj00se 0 #20 May 8, 2003 QuoteJust wanted to point out that ZP is just that, Zero Porosity Why does your main become easier to pack over time? Becasue the fabric/coating degrades and it allows air to escape more easily - I think this would be called an increase in porosity. All other things being equal your canopy is going to take longer to open and handling characteristics will change. If I'm wrong then please correct me - no offence taken. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #21 May 8, 2003 I had two Batwings, a 134 and a 116, for a number of years. They were, as I was flying them, very fun and I never had a problem with them. They did not like being out of trim and the openings became squrily if the trim was way out. My exit weight out the door was from 225 to 240lbs during the years I was jumping the Batwing. At the heavest noted weight, the 134 with the slightly lower load of 1.8 compared to the 116 at 2.07 did get a better landing. The design seemed to be really effecient at up to 1.8 but above that landing performance seemed to drop off. Regarding the guy who was looking at a 116 after comming from a 165 Turbo, one word NO! The 116 at a 1.3 load still will be very unforgiving and I would try out a 153 first or no smaller then a 134. They are out there at decent prices but honestly you should have more jumps then 200ish before going to any eliptical canopy. The other alternative is to consider a semi tapered wing like a Sabre 2 or one of those new class of canopies. Regarding a fast canopy progression, Can you land it time and time again and again, sure BUT the big problem with a fast progression is that if something goes wrong it happens very fast. The problem can quickly be magnified with a slow or incorrect recognition while jumping a canopy that is a small fast ZP design. Scott C."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #22 May 8, 2003 ZP is just that, for its life. Unless ZP is damaged (i.e. holes, tears) it is Zero Porosity. The coating will take on a softer less slippery hand, but will not change in porosity. The changes in flight are trim issues. Anyone who has jumped a freshly relined canopy can point this out to you. It is not out of the question to see a canopy with well over 2000+ jumps to be perfectly airworthy after a reline, and with some of the new line types, relines are not a concern for many more than the industry standard practice of 400-600 jumps.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unutsch 0 #23 May 8, 2003 someone correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't a bigpart ot their advertisments something like: you should have 1000 jumps? anyway, if you'll buy it, be safe Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation: http://www.padliangeli.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #24 May 9, 2003 If I remember corectly it was a minimum of 500 jumps..... That is of course what they said in the ad!"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerm 0 #25 May 9, 2003 QuoteZP is just that, for its life. Unless ZP is damaged (i.e. holes, tears) it is Zero Porosity. The coating will take on a softer less slippery hand, but will not change in porosity. The changes in flight are trim issues. Yes zp is for life, however R00tdude is right the the CANOPY becomes more porous over its life and passes more air with age (hence easier to get air out when packing etc). The trick is that the stitch holes widen over time.... they are pulled and pulled and pulled and eventually widen and allow more air through, so you're both right for different reasons :) So if you have a stiletto with 2000 jumps on it that is a dog even after a reline, ya might think about having the seams coated.. THAT is where you're losing the air. -jerm Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
