Tadem video - do you track?

[AndyMan 7]

My last jump on saturday I was videoing a tandem.

After a normal freefall, I backed off for the pull, then went into deep wings and pitched up for deployment. After the pair went out of sight I relaxed, went to normal pitch, and well... pitched.

My opening was a bit "brisk", and the tandem sniveled. A few seconds after opening I found myself on a colision course with the now fully deployed tandem..

It wasn't a close call, we had good separation. Both TM and I went to rear risers and avoided each other by a wide margin.

That said, I will be sure to give a bit more delay in the future.

What are other tricks people use to avoid the situation? Is it common to give a short track once you're done shooting deployment? Another thought I had was simply to change my heading so that we wouldn't be flying towards each other should it happen again, but this seems weak as I rarely have 100% on-heading openings.

Also, what techniques do people use to ensure a tandem doesn't cutaway with you below them?

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[tonyhays 86]

If the tandem instructor is opening at the correct altitude, then I wouldn't think tracking, or worrying about your heading, should be much of an issue. Waiting til about 3500-3000 feet for pull time should give you plenty of separation.

Of course, I have yet to have a tandem master hose me on the spot after a few hundred video jumps, so maybe I'm spoiled.

No tracking for me.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[ltdiver 3]

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Waiting til about 3500-3000 feet for pull time should give you plenty of separation.

So, I guess you don't worry about a tandem cutaway, then?

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[diablopilot 2]

Typicaly no.

I watch the tandum untill I can see the slider is down, and then I flip over and dum. Usually this has me opening no lower than 3000 agl. If they chop after this, I will be well out of the way due to the foward speed of my canopies.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ltdiver 3]

I watch for full canopy inflation as well before flipping over and deploying, JP.

However, I was asking this question of tonyhays.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[diablopilot 2]

Sorry. I just like to run my big yap.......



(slinking of to be quiet now....)

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tonyhays 86]

Having full canopy inflation doesn't mean they won't chop it.

But to answer your question: No, I don't worry about a tandem cutaway.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[ltdiver 3]

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Having full canopy inflation doesn't mean they won't chop it.

But to answer your question: No, I don't worry about a tandem cutaway.

That's why I back track while the tandem canopy inflates.

Consult with your TI and ask what altitude they're in the saddle after a cutaway. You might be surprised.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[tonyhays 86]

I'm sure it could be as low as 2000 feet, depending on the situation. Maybe even lower.

So do you feel that back tracking gets you sufficient distance away from the tandem in the event of a cutaway? No matter what the situation?

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[ltdiver 3]

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I'm sure it could be as low as 2000 feet, depending on the situation. Maybe even lower.

So do you feel that back tracking gets you sufficient distance away from the tandem in the event of a cutaway? No matter what the situation?

Yes. Tracking ensures horizonal separation, deploying lower....vertical. Being heads up to keep track of the tandem canopy before flipping over....noting it's position again...once you're open...helps to keep the skies safer.

It'd be good to hear from some seasoned TI's here as well on this thread. I'm sure they've seen alot in their -years- of experience.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[tonyhays 86]

So what do you think generates more horizontal separation and keeps the possibility of a collision lower: tracking after the tandem deployment, or achieving vertical separation and allowing your canopy to take you out of the way?

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[diablopilot 2]

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achieving vertical separation and allowing your canopy to take you out of the way?

Speaking as a vidiot and a TI, the vertical is what is going to save my bacon...

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ltdiver 3]

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So what do you think generates more horizontal separation and keeps the possibility of a collision lower: tracking after the tandem deployment, or achieving vertical separation and allowing your canopy to take you out of the way?

Haven't relied on just the later, so can't compare just one to the other. I do both.

What's nice at the DZ where I jump is that jump run is north/south. So....when the tandem/video get set-up they're either facing east or west (to keep the sunlight in the proper orientation). So, on deployment you track -across- line of flight and (if your canopy opens on heading) your canopy flys that way too...AWAY from the tandem.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[riro 0]

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but this seems weak as I rarely have 100% on-heading openings.

Keep your heading on the TM then you should be fine


I flip to my back to get the opening and when the tandem-canopy is out I flip back and pull... we have a 100m (?) or so differense in height.

--
riro - http://www.ronnkvist.nu/gallery/

[motherhucker 0]

I see the time between the tandem pull and my own as MY time. I happen to enjoy tracking quite a bit, and have found myself able to get some pretty badass forward speed with camera wings. Often I'll flip over to find that I'm perpendicular from jumprun and right over the landing area--I'll turn toward it, track, and hummit. This is as much to avoid canopy traffic as it is to have fun. The tandem cutting away is not a concern to me. I have filmed enough tandem cutaways (~30) to confidently say it doesn't concern me.
mh

[jmfreefly 0]

ALWAYS.

I either track or backslide enough to ensure horizontal separation. (Large wings can make backsliding almost as fast as tracking).

Vertical separation doesn't mean squat.

Seeing a 'fully inflated canopy' doesn't mean squat.

There is a video clip in our 2002 Year End video that shows a Tandem (still in mid snivel) falling past the video guy under canopy. Close enough to see the bald spot on the Tandem masters head, and that is with a .45 lens. Extremely close. Maybe I will pull the clip out and post it.

I also saw almost the exact same scenario on a compilation from Oregon.

Additionally, I try to take care not to fly my canopy under the Tandem just after I open also. Tandem masters tend to muck around with sub-terminal, or fully open Mals a bit longer (because of the altitude they have). Having someone with a spinning malfunction spiral down into you can't be a fun time.

j

[AggieDave 6]

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Vertical separation doesn't mean squat.

Seeing a 'fully inflated canopy' doesn't mean squat.

Finally, someone speaks the voice of reason.

Vertical seperation doesn't do a bit of good if that 1000' if burned up with a mal.

A fully open canopy doesn't do a bit of good, since lines might have snapped or anything could have happened.

When a tandem pair chops and dumps the reserve, they basically go back into freefall for a bit as they build speed to open the reserve. That's one of the reasons why tandems open so high in the first place. The reserves are designed to open at tandem terminal and not kill, but still function when cutting away from a malfunctioning main.

So basically, I would like it, as a TI, if you would track or backslide away after getting the opening shot, its just safer for the 3 of us. I'm all about doing weird things when sport jumping and I like doing CReW, but weird things piss me off when I'm doing tandems, and if you're close enough that you could turn and dock under canopy, you're much too close. So why not take the chance of it happening out.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[flyingarab 0]

I have to agree with the back track idea. The same goes for AFF as well. We all flip on our backs to get the openings and then we can decide what to do from there. I have started to flip on my back, get the opening while back tracking and then roll back to my belly, track a little and pull. This still allows me to pull above 3K.

I have a video I shot a month ago for an AFF level 1 training where the student and the instructor had to chop. If it weren't for tracking, I am sure there would have been cloe close calls.

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[davelepka 4]

***Vertical seperation doesn't do a bit of good if that 1000' if burned up with a mal.

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If the camera flyer sees the tandem slider is down, that elimiates any high speed mals. In the case of a low speed mal (tension knots, line breaks, etc) the TM will try to fix the problem (delaying a cutaway) or deciede to cutaway, inform the student, and request that they arch again (again delaying the cutaway). During these delays, the camera flyer has fallen 1000+ ft below the tandem, and deployed, burning up another (at least) 500 ft. Thats 1500 ft of separation. Add to this the forward speed of the canopy moving the camera flyer out from under the tandem, it hardly seems is if this would be a problem.

BUT

Camer flyers who don't roll over and film the entire opening need to track to avoid collisions. If you cannot confim that the canopy is out and infalted, you cannot confirm that you can safely deploy. A bag lock, streamer, or other high speed mal; if combined with a quick pull and opening from a camera flyer can result in a problem.

ALTHOUGH

After tracking, it is essential to locate the tandem, and stay out from under them. The forward speed of your canopy can quickly cancel out your tracking by flying you back under the tandem if you are not careful.


The stories in the thread about tandems sniveling past camera flyers were clearly the result of trigger happy camera flyers.

You have to take a test and pass a course to be a TM. Any jackass with a camera helmet can call themselves a cameraman,

[AggieDave 6]

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If the camera flyer sees the tandem slider is down, that elimiates any high speed mals.

Right. Although, I was thinking along the lines of if the TI noticed broken lines, etc during opening, and was quick to chop. Even if the video flier watched the opening, the tandem pair will be back in freefall awaiting the reserve deployment. A collision while the pair are still in freefall doesn't seem likely, but I was thinking more along the lines of during and directly after the reserve is open and flying. At that point the TI may have his/her hands full, trying to possibly pick a landing area, etc. Never mind that (atleast with RWS' reserves) the brakes are set so deep that until the TI releases the brakes, they are basically rocking in and out of a stall. The reserve isn't real manueverable with the rear risers at this point.

My point is, if the video guy would atleast get some horizontal seperation before deploying, then it would be basically a 100% non-issue instead of a "maybe/possibly."

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Deuce 1]

I backfly the opening, throw a peace sign, continue the backflip, put my altimeter in the camera's view, track toward the DZ and dump in a track at 2500.

The TM will pull higher if the spot sucks. If they don't, I land off.

[ivanrockon 0]

Amen! Same here.

Ivan "Rock On"

[YahooLV 0]

I back track while the tandem canopy inflates.

Consult with your TI and ask what altitude they're in the saddle after a cutaway. You might be surprised.

ltdiver

[ltdiver 3]

Hey Curt!

Nice to hear from you again!!!
You coming out to the DZ again anytime soon? The air conditioner's installed in my trailer if you want a place to relax out of the sun...

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Courteney 0]

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In total agreement!!! Any cameraman who meets the tandem snivelling past him after deployment should fall a bit longer. I was taught to watch the tandem deploy, remove wings, (if you're wearing them), whilst backsliding and then deploy.
In 3 years I have seen thousands of tandems and there hasn't been a case of TM's meeting camermen after cutaways. Vertical seperation doesn't hurt but if you combine that with a good backslide I don't see a problem.

...drags me down like some sweet gravity!!!

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