What do you pay for Coached jumps?

[SCR10480 0]

Hello everyone! Need to get a better demographic sample on what Coaches (USPA Rated) are charging for training jumps in various locations. At our DZ. we have three very good Coaches who have (up to this point) gone unpaid for their efforts.

Thank you for your input.

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[elightle 8]

Hi.

I must admit I am unfamiliar with what USPA coaches teach their students. But it seems that a lot of newer jumpers are not adequately prepared for 4-way. That is one reason I am writing an article on drills that can help bridge this gap. Also, I am putting together a beginners team at my home DZ this season so my team will learn RW the correct way from the ground up.

If you would, point me to the material in the SIM or whatever that explains what skills USPA coaches are supposed to teach.

Blues!
Ed Lightle

[SCR10480 0]

Hello Ed,
If you would, please refer to SIM section 4 Cat. E as this is the beginning of the Coaches area of instruction. As it is set up, the Coach continues on with the Student's training through Cat. H, and on up to their licensing. The Students that we train (Individual results may vary) are also brought along on 4 ways as their skills permit.
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[Foggy 0]

Hi Ed

essentially the USPA Coach can teach the generic portions of the first jump course, i.e., equipment and canopy control. They can also teach the freefall portions of categories F thru H (ISP basic freefall skills). All under the supervision of an instructor. They can also introduce basic group freefall skills (you can download the details in the IRM essentials in pdf format on the USPA website as well as the SIM). Also consider that you only need a B license and 100 jumps and there are only two in air eval jumps. There is no requirement for 4-way knowledge although I am sure it would be helpful

Foggy
D21109

[elightle 8]

Thanks! I'll check it out.
Keep up the good work with coaching!

Ed

[elightle 8]

Thanks, Foggy!

Ed

[daveb 1]

I pay several hundred dollars a day for coached jumps, and I'm pretty sure my coach is not USPA certified. ;-)

The USPA coaches I know of generally get slot+5. Even before the USPA coach program, I'd pay at least his slot, and almost always an additional $5. It made his jump a freebie, but since he was focused on my needs, that seems entirely reasonable.

I don't put alot of stock into the USPA coach rating.... the requirements are not all that impressive. I took the course a few years ago, but never made the eval jumps; the paper trail is now moldy, so I'd have to repeat it, and I don't find the hassle worth it. That's not where my heart is anyway -- I'd much rather teach good RW skills to (licensed) jumpers of all levels.

I think I want to be like Ed....

[bodypilot1 0]

The USPA Coaches rating is a VERY easy rating to get, and a prerequisite for all ratings you wish to acheive as an Instructor.
The rating can be achieved at very low jump numbers, but it basically gets everyone on the same page for teaching the correct way, and then you basically watch the jumper do it and debrief them.

Some DZ's charge a flat Coach jump rate and the DZ makes money off the student that has no choice but to pay the fee's to the DZ.

I'd have to say if the Coach doesn't have great air skills as a skydiver, has limited skills in the air and doesn't provide video for debriefing the student, he should only charge slot and maybe a pack job.

After I sign one of my private students off and out from under my supervision as an AFF instructor, I charge slot +$25 and always include a video debrief.


Be safe.
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[DanG 1]

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I'd have to say if the Coach doesn't have great air skills as a skydiver, has limited skills in the air and doesn't provide video for debriefing the student, he should only charge slot and maybe a pack job.

I'd have to say that if the Coach doesn't have great air skills, observational skills,and teaching skills, then he/she shouldn't be a Coach to begin with. The fact that the Coach rating is easy to get doesn't mean that the students should receive poor instruction. My dropzone pays slot plus $30 to our coaches, but the instruction the student gets is top notch. We don't have 100 jump wonders working in the instructional staff. I'd be curious to know how many low jump number coaches are actually out there teaching the ISP.

- Dan G

[bodypilot1 0]

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The fact that the Coach rating is easy to get doesn't mean that the students should receive poor instruction.

I totally agree.


Be safe.
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Ron 7]

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I'd have to say that if the Coach doesn't have great air skills, observational skills,and teaching skills, then he/she shouldn't be a Coach to begin with.

You have to define what is good. The course is not hard (I have never taken it...Just going on what others said) But they are not teaching really difficult stuff. If they meet the standards, then they have met the standards and are coaches. It does not need "great skills". No rating course's need great skills...You just have to meet the standards.

If a person has met the standards, then they have met the standards.

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The fact that the Coach rating is easy to get doesn't mean that the students should receive poor instruction.

Take that up with the USPA.

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We don't have 100 jump wonders working in the instructional staff

But what if they passed the coach course?

Remember back in the day you only needed 100 jumps to be a S/L jumpmaster. And most did a good job.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[DanG 1]

I agree that if a person has the prerequisites and passes the course, then they are Coaches. That does not mean that a DZ will necessarily put them to work. I don't make the decisions about who works at the DZ where I jump. I do know that the guy who does has turned down more than one person who had a rating because they were not ready to be on the instructional staff. In the long run, whatever you think about USPA or the ISP, having good people on your instructional staff is not only safer, but is better business.

If we keep talking about USPA Coaches, this thread probably belongs in Safety and Training, or Instructors, not Relative Work.

As far as non-instructional RW coaches (Airspeed, etc.), the general going rate for top tier guys (or gals) seems to be about $300 a day, plus expenses. USPA Coaches don't make quite that much
- Dan G

[Scrumpot 1]

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I'd be curious to know how many low jump number coaches are actually out there teaching the ISP.

Quite a lot, and it seems to be the "norm", at least as I've observed around most USPA dropzones I've visited.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[daveb 1]

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As far as non-instructional RW coaches (Airspeed, etc.), the general going rate for top tier guys (or gals) seems to be about $300 a day, plus expenses. USPA Coaches don't make quite that much

I know what you meant by "non-instructional", but I do want to emphasize that the coaching provided by the Airspeed crew (in particular) is highly instructional, and worth the cost of admission. Value, as in all things, depends on what you seek.

[rehmwa 2]

This thing degenerated into a bunch of semantics pretty quickly.

There are USPA rated Coaches - they met the requirements as laid out.

There are good 'coaches' out there.

I've seen no relation (good or bad) between the two.

Edit: USPA rated "Coaches" should be paid based on how good they are at being "coaches" not because they got the minimums signed off. In other words, I don't see much value in the current rating. But, then again, I think the Pro-rating is stupid too.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 7]

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I think the Pro-rating is stupid too.

I like the PRO rating.

Its not that hard and if you can't do it you have NO business doing a demo.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

I know you do Ron. And the check out requirements are simple enough and any equivalent can be administered or observed by demo organizers as a check for who they invite on the demo teams. But, this can happen without need for a "formal" licensing process. (I expect people to be organized and responsible on their own volition or they have no business pulling demos together).

Frankly, I don't think a demo organizer should ever invite someone onto a team unless they personally know/observe that other's skills and judgement - rather than inviting a stranger just because the rating is signed off.

Inviting a person with bad judgement/skills on a demo would be equivalent to signing off the Pro-rating for an individual who doesn't meet the requirements (who then gets to go anyway on a demo). i.e., irresponsible decisions can happen with or without the rating and either results in an idiot smashing into the spectators.

To me, it's much like the tunnel coach license (or gratuitous gun control laws) is to you. If a person can't do a demo well, they shouldn't regardless if they have a rating or not. One could just as easily tie the requirements to the D license and not have to administer separately.

I'd love to see the D License be harder and have more meaning. With requirements for flying in all orientations (how can you call yourself a 'master' skydiver if you only know how to fly in one orientation), more advanced requirements for accuracy (covers the demo requirement), perhaps a CrW requirement (showing ability to use all the canopy control inputs, not just toggles).

Edit: Let's just say the Pro Rating and the Coach Rating are analogous. Sure, they indicate either a good friend signed them off as a favor and they aren't 'really' qualified. Or that they are qualified to the MINIMUMs. And even so, they still may or may not be any good at it.

Edit Edit: The C and D licensing requirement used to cover demos. After various accidents and new generations of canopy technology, instead of fixing/amending the existing licensing requriements to address those changes, we added another new set of requirements (Pro Rating). I think adding rules instead of fixing broken rules is the big problem here.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DanG 1]

I would like to make the same point regarding coaches. Just because someone has a USPA Coach rating doesn't mean a reputable instructor should hire him without observing his skills firsthand. At my dropzone that is how it is done. I am suprised that other people are saying, or implying, that USPA Coaches are working at their DZ with marginal skills and a piece of paper that says "Coach".

- Dan G

[Ron 7]

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I know you do Ron. And the check out requirements are simple enough and any equivalent can be administered or observed by demo organizers as a check for who they invite on the demo teams. But, this can happen without need for a "formal" licensing process.

The problem is this is not happening. People are getting on Demos/student jumps without the skills needed.

I like the idea of a license to do both....But the problem (as you pointed out) is people having a buddy "pencil whip" the license.

The problem is not the license, but the jackass that just signs shit off without the conditions being met.

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Frankly, I don't think a demo organizer should ever invite someone onto a team unless they personally know/observe that other's skills and judgement - rather than inviting a stranger just because the rating is signed off.

Agreed, and when I was on a demo team if you were not on target you did not jump...even if you had the license ect.

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To me, it's much like the tunnel coach license (or gratuitous gun control laws) is to you. If a person can't do a demo well, they shouldn't regardless if they have a rating or not.

Except for this...I am FOR being able to prove you can do what you need to do. I am not about an organization doing something just to make money. So in the case of what I thought was going on in the Tunnel case...I saw an organization that provided no benefit for the card other than to do what people were already doing..That *seems* to not be the case with the tunnel coaching. As for Gun restrictions I am FOR tighter regulations and manditory training to carry.

I am also for much more restrictive regulations for the PRO rating. I let mine lapse since I had not done a demo in two years...even though I was able to still land on target (and did for my sign off every year) I gave it up since one dead center a year is not enough to be considered "current" to do a stadium demo.

I think very few people have any business doing a demo. Those that can do them train to do them...I was doing 300 jumps a year just for target practice. Some guy that does 100 fun jumps a year and only goes for a target for his rating, and on a demo...Well he should either train more, or not do the demo.

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I'd love to see the D License be harder and have more meaning

I would also...

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With requirements for flying in all orientations (how can you call yourself a 'master' skydiver if you only know how to fly in one orientation), more advanced requirements for accuracy (covers the demo requirement), perhaps a CrW requirement (showing ability to use all the canopy control inputs, not just toggles).

I'd like to see a license that has the requirement to be "skilled" in two or three of a group of areas....Kinda like the PADI Master card. Out of: 4way/8way (X number points, or X average), big ways (multi plane loads with you having been both in the lead and trail plane), head down (Like the AD), CRW (4 stack), Video , INSTRUCTION (Ratings)...ect you would have to show skill in say three or 4 of them. This would allow me who has no interest in headdown to get it, while allowing a freeflyer to still be able to qualify without doing 4way. And it allows people who would never do CRW to qualify.

I would also require a cutaway.

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Edit: Let's just say the Pro Rating and the Coach Rating are analogous. Sure, they indicate either a good friend signed them off as a favor and they aren't 'really' qualified. Or that they are qualified to the MINIMUMs. And even so, they still may or may not be any good at it.

First thing you have to do is make it so no one "pencil whips" anything. Then you have to make it so that the rating actually means something.

If the standard coach rating needs to be harder, then it should be harder. Thats up to the USPA, but they seem more eager to down dumb it than make the rating mean something...

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AggieDave 6]

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Just because someone has a USPA Coach rating doesn't mean a reputable instructor should hire him without observing his skills firsthand. At my dropzone that is how it is done. I am suprised that other people are saying, or implying, that USPA Coaches are working at their DZ with marginal skills and a piece of paper that says "Coach".

I definately agree and that's how its done at my DZ. At some other DZs I've visited instructors aren't even all teaching the same things, its all over the place.

My DZ you have to be above and beyond in ability for a Coach rated jumper. If you're someone who just barely passed the Coach Course, without you getting significant coaching, you're not going to be doing any coach jumps at my DZ. And that's after you sit through some staff meetings and watch our head instructor and our head coach teach their material so you know what you're getting after the tandems and the AFF and exactly how we teach what we teach. If you don't like how we teach something, then bring it up in a staff meeting or to the head instructor and head coach before that. However, just teaching it how you were taught won't be tolerated, we have a higher standard then that.

I will say though, the students that this program turns out with their A-licenses are pretty good fliers and overall pretty aware skydivers. Basically it nearly pisses me off since I didn't learn a LOT of the skills and abilities they have finishing our program until I had well over 100 jumps. And that level of teaching has to do with properly implimenting the coaches with the right kind of coaches with the right kind of teaching.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[BenediktDE 2]

Depends on the place I jump at. Some ask for the ticket plus 14 to 20 EUR for the instructor on one DZ, ticket only on the next.
At one DZ that is not commercial you only pay 7 EUR additional to your ticket. Instructors do it for fun and the rest of the ticket is paid by the club in order to help new skydivers and bind them to the club.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

[SCR10480 0]

Thanks Man.

I guess the point I'm trying to clear up is this:

Should a Coach ("Very easy to get rating" "Only need a B and 100 J's...etc.") be expected to shell out the $18.00 to $22.00 to go be a stabilizer for a student, when they could be doing 4 way for the same amount of "fun" money? Or should the student that NEEDS coaching be expected to pay the Coaches fare? How selfless are these "pseudo" Instructors supposed to be?

It's painfully obvious that many don't take a Coach's skills seriously...but should they always be charitable?

That's all...

[daveb 1]

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I guess the point I'm trying to clear up is this:

Should a Coach ("Very easy to get rating" "Only need a B and 100 J's...etc.") be expected to shell out the $18.00 to $22.00 to go be a stabilizer for a student, when they could be doing 4 way for the same amount of "fun" money? Or should the student that NEEDS coaching be expected to pay the Coaches fare? How selfless are these "pseudo" Instructors supposed to be?

If you *hire* the coach, you should pay. If the coach just wants to jump with someone, even a newbie, the coach should pay.

Figure it like this: if the focus of the skydive is you, you should be paying the other's slot(s). If the focus is on jumping with others, each foots their own bill. How much to pay is determined by value to you, and agreed upon by the coach.

[druspork 0]

My home dz [UK] policy is the student covers the slot. The coaching is not necessarily 100% cutting edge - but then not every dz has Airspeed managing the FS coaching.

I dont claim internationally astonishing coaching ability, but I will offer my service where I can, and it's nice to have the slot covered. The rest of my 4-w team is the same. We love to help out, what we coach is as current as one US training camp a year allows. If we have to cover our own slot when coaching there is an obvious temptation to stick to our own training. Fact of life really.

As a coach I'm not Dan BC - if that's what the student wants they have to go to Perris (or Eloy, or Deland, or Empuria yadda yadda).

Dru

[Avion 0]

This is an interesting topic for me, because I am planning on obtaining a coach rating. By the time I'll have 100 jumps, I'll also have about 7 hours of air time considering the 5.5 hours in the tunnel that I'll have by that time too. Additionally, I am well versed with briefing and video debriefing from my tunnel work.

When I begin, I expect I'd be happy to just get my slot paid. But, I'm looking forward to getting slot+20 someday

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