mantis

[skymick 0]

I was just wondering what everyone's opinion is of the Mantis position. I've heard various things about it from being essential if you want to start cranking out shit loads of points to it being only useful for one or two different blocks and randoms, and generally the box position is ok for eveything else.

Opinions?

Cheers

[rehmwa 2]

You can fly in about any position

The Mantis vs boxman is like
race car vs go cart

It's simply faster, more precise, and has more range.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 7]

It is a better way to make fast moves...

I have been told by some that it is not good for big ways....I used it on a 110 way, and I have a buddy that used it on the 300 way.

Back in the early days people lept out in a big "X", it was 50/50 if you were belly or back to earth, but you didn't tumble as much in this position...Then some frog found out if you bend your legs and arch you can fall Belly to earth. Next was the "Boxman" (no not the orginizer, he came latter). Which was better than the old hard arch. Then as more points were being turned, the top teams could not move from the boxman to pick up the grips and back to the box man to move to the next point as fast as they needed to...The mantis evolved from needing to have your hands in front of you to fly and to pick up grips.

Look at it this way...you want to fly an airplane? You learn in a Cessna 152 (Hard Arch). Now you want to go fast? You get into a Bonanza (Boxman). You want to do really cool ass shit? Pitts Special (Mantis).

You could not learn AFF in the mantis...Man that would be funny to watch though!

But if you want to faster...you need the right position...And I'd bet that in 10 years it will be different than today.

Its not for everyone...In fact you don't need it, anyone that tells you you do need it is wrong. You can skydive your whole life and not need it...I know pilots that have never flown in a Pitts, and I know pilots that don't want to fly anything else.

I teach it to people when I coach.

But what do I know?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,623]

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It is a better way to make fast moves...

I have been told by some that it is not good for big ways....I used it on a 110 way, and I have a buddy that used it on the 300 way.

Back in the early days people lept out in a big "X", it was 50/50 if you were belly or back to earth, but you didn't tumble as much in this position...Then some frog found out if you bend your legs and arch you can fall Belly to earth. Next was the "Boxman" (no not the orginizer, he came latter). Which was better than the old hard arch. Then as more points were being turned, the top teams could not move from the boxman to pick up the grips and back to the box man to move to the next point as fast as they needed to...The mantis evolved from needing to have your hands in front of you to fly and to pick up grips.

Look at it this way...you want to fly an airplane? You learn in a Cessna 152 (Hard Arch). Now you want to go fast? You get into a Bonanza (Boxman). You want to do really cool ass shit? Pitts Special (Mantis).

You could not learn AFF in the mantis...Man that would be funny to watch though!

But if you want to faster...you need the right position...And I'd bet that in 10 years it will be different than today.

Its not for everyone...In fact you don't need it, anyone that tells you you do need it is wrong. You can skydive your whole life and not need it...I know pilots that have never flown in a Pitts, and I know pilots that don't want to fly anything else.

I teach it to people when I coach.

But what do I know?

Good advice, Ron. You wouldn't want to fly hard IFR in a Pitts S2S (although it can be done) any more than you'd fly Lomcevaks in a Bonanza (a really bad idea).

Of course, never forget that 95% of SUVs never get driven off the highway; sometimes cool is more important than anything else!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

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Good advice, Ron. You wouldn't want to fly hard IFR in a Pitts S2S (although it can be done) any more than
you'd fly Lomcevaks in a Bonanza (a really bad idea).

How about the straight tail acro Bonanza?....

Man I LOVE that plane. Fast, 4 place, and aerobatic....Though I doubt it can do a Lomcevak...Then again I don't know if I can do one.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ZoneRat 0]

I fly on a rookie 4-way and a rookie 8-way team. The fall rate of both teams are typically about 110 sas. I can handle it fine with a slightly de-arched boxman, but I'd love to learn the mantis.

My question is this: Can the range of a mantis typically encompass the fall rate of a boxman position?

I don't really want to hassle with buying a slower jumpsuit so I can mantis with my box flying friends.

Am I out of luck then?

Thoughts?

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”

[Albatross 0]

The "Mantis" is not a specific position but a way to presurize your legs and upper body. If you watch the best body piolots in the world (Shannon Pelcher, Tomas Huges, David Vg...) you will see that they are actually starting to get bigger so that they have more surface in the air stream. That means that they are actually falling fairly slow. The position actually offers the possibility of a MUCH wider range of fall rates.

Chris

[Ron 7]

The Mantis is rather flat body position. You are cuping air with your upper body, and your legs are flat in relation to the horizon.

Most people when they start flying the mantis need to add a little lead.

It can be slower, or faster depending on your arm position, and the amount of arch.

In the mantis you can rotate your arms so that they spill all the air they had...In effect taking all that lift away..In the box man you can only really arch hard.

So the mantis can be faster or slower depending on what you do.


However, you don't need to learn it...You can skydive your whole life without it....

If you want to learn it the best way is a tunnel camp.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

Short answer - Mantis will give you much more range (both on the slow end and the fast end) than boxman does.

good luck

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Emma 0]

Your own body shape, size, weight and flexibility will also in part determine how mantis-y vs how box-y you are. A good coach (ideally top FS jumper themselves) would take a look at your current position and help you to modify it, if it looks like it would help your speed and/ or stability.

Essentially the mantis is a less stable position than the box, but what you sacrifice in stability, you make up for in speed...Uh, unless you go unstable and funnel yourself...Pfft ASPD go pretty fast but they don't all fly mega-mantised-up.

[ZoneRat 0]

We had a 8-way team camp last weekend. My performance was satisfactory, but I was disgusted at my body position. I could barely watch the tapes. My knees were a little down, my arms were too far out... ugly ugly ugly. I've gotten lazy.

Later that day I was on a 32-way formation load. I was right in my slot, patiently waiting for those I were to dock on to make their grips and settle out... the second they did the fomation floated. Couldn't catch it. A couple others exceeded target fall rate as well.

I can't stick with the position I'm flying, I can fly it ok at the level our teams are at now, but I can tell that it will become a limitation later on when things heat up.

Not sure what I'm going to do. Nationals is coming quick and I'm uncertain that I should dink around too much with things just now.

Sigh...I guess I'll just re-examine and tighten my box position for now and integrate some mantis theory post nationals in a tunnel camp. I'll ask my coaches. They're top FS folk (Marian Kramer/ Rick Duran from Rave). They'll know what to do.

Thanks for the input, guys.

I learned a few things.
Robin

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”

[ZoneRat 0]

btw...Skymick... I just noticed that I hijacked your thread... sorry 'bout that.

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”

[SpinDoctor 0]

You can turn faster because you are smaller and you are using both ends to turn (Legs and arms)

Also much better range (try going faster when you are already maxed out in a box man)

Great for picking up grips too... try a cheated cat grip when your thumbs are around your ear 'oles

It is one of those "time in the tunnel" things... but eventually you will start to do it without thinking

(There was s'posed to be a pic of Pete Allum exiting in the mantis here - but i couldnt find it...)

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Connextion: British 8 Way Team
www.bodyflight.co.uk
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[Remster 24]

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and you are using both ends to turn (Legs and arms)

Thats funny, thats what I do when I center turn, and I'm an old fashioned box type.

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Also much better range

Thats not a requirement for team jumps as the speed is pretty much leveled and stable. Also, I'd argue you probably dont really have a larger range, just a faster fall rate when neutral.

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Great for picking up grips too... try a cheated cat grip when your thumbs are around your ear 'oles

Again, you dont have to fly mantis to cheat grips.


I'm not saying its not a better position for some, but its not the end all be all.

Remster

[rehmwa 2]

from one Rehm to another Rem

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and you are using both ends to turn (Legs and arms)

{{{{actually, the best mantis turns you don't need your arms to stay centered - you do need to with boxman}}}}

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Also much better range

Thats not a requirement for team jumps as the speed is pretty much leveled and stable. Also, I'd argue you probably dont really have a larger range, just a faster fall rate when neutral.

{{{disagree - my fall rate range is huge since learning mantis - the flat board style of fall rate control is way more effective than arching and 'hugging the beach ball'}}}}}

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Great for picking up grips too... try a cheated cat grip when your thumbs are around your ear 'oles

Again, you dont have to fly mantis to cheat grips.

{{{{he's talking about having to fall faster while simultaneously taking grips in a boxman, not cheating cheating alone}}}

I'm not saying its not a better position for some, but its not the end all be all.

{{{If you read the above, everyone agrees you can fly in most any position, but mantis is superior in almost every way - someday, there might be another improvement. let's hope so}}}

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[sundevil777 93]

Did a 2 way recently with a ~200 jump novice without a lot of RW experience trying to use the mantis position. The constant correcting and overcorrecting with hands/arms made me have to orbit around to get the first dock.

It was very irritating having my target doing unnecessary adjustments. is having the hands in front of you likely to make a novice 'twitchy'?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[skymick 0]

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btw...Skymick... I just noticed that I hijacked your thread... sorry 'bout that.

dont worry bout it..I had completely forgotten about this thread anyway till now!

[rehmwa 2]

Everyone has a learning curve. They are probably too stiff and would be twitchy in the boxman/frog modified/etc. After 200 jumps, he should be 'settled down' by now regardless.

If it's not fun, don't jump with him unless you guys are working on the problem specifically.

Send him up on solos to get comfortable. He'll smooth out.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Emma 0]

Yeh but I think you have all forgotten the main point, which is that mantis just looks cooler.

Image is everything, skill is nothing...

[gremlin 0]

Yeh but I think you have all forgotten the main point, which is that mantis just looks cooler.

Image is everything, skill is nothing...

Don't forget matching jumpsuits, not only cool but worth another 2 points per round

I'm drunk, you're drunk, lets go back to mine....

[Emma 0]

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Don't forget matching jumpsuits, not only cool but worth another 2 points per round

Lol...totally! And if you can get matching rigs too, medals are certainly within your grasp....

[Dogwap 0]

Please post a link to a photo of someone flying in the Mantis position. Or please try to describe the prescribed hand, arm and leg positions. I’m imagining the following configuration.

Thumbs down.
Elbows forward, at about the nose/ears, as opposed to the shoulders with the box-man.
Shoulders slightly cupped (dependent on desired fall-rate).
Legs spread as normal.
Knees slightly lowered to create an overall de-arch (again depended on fall-rate)
Lower legs extended at maybe 45 degrees (fall-rate).

The above is just a guess. Please tell me where I’m out of line.

Thanks,

-------------------------------------------------------
To those who say it’s a small world, let me tell you,
I’ve seen the world, and it’s only getting bigger.

[rehmwa 2]

Real simple -

turn on the TV set

Lie down in front of the TV set on the floor like you're watching it. Take your hands off from under your chin and lay your forearms (in or forward) flat on the floor.

That's about it (from knees to bottom of rib cage relatively flat, the head is lifted with the back muscles - not pushed up with the arms - to a fairly high place, hands and elbows in front in whatever is comfortable, feet are extended a little more than you'd think).

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 7]

Bill gave a good exanple of the Mantis...

Here is what I teach.

Get a piece of paper and a pen....I'll wait.

Now lie on your stomach on the floor. Bend your lower legs 90 degress to the floor. (With booties...w/o they will be extended a little bit)

Its a little windy so you need to hold the paper with both hands.

Now write a letter to your Mom...You really should do this more anyway.

Notice that your hands are down and in front of your face? thats where they need to be for grips.

And notice that you are supporting your upper body with your arms down? That will bring your head up and let you see more, and it cups the air so you can move it better.

And your legs are level with the horizon...This allows them to be more effective.

Now finish the letter and dispatch it quick...Your Mom misses you.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[FreeDiver 0]

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Bill gave a good exanple of the Mantis...

Here is what I teach.

Get a piece of paper and a pen....I'll wait.

Now lie on your stomach on the floor. Bend your lower legs 90 degress to the floor. (With booties...w/o they will be extended a little bit)

Its a little windy so you need to hold the paper with both hands.

Now write a letter to your Mom...You really should do this more anyway.

Notice that your hands are down and in front of your face? thats where they need to be for grips.

And notice that you are supporting your upper body with your arms down? That will bring your head up and let you see more, and it cups the air so you can move it better.

And your legs are level with the horizon...This allows them to be more effective.

Now finish the letter and dispatch it quick...Your Mom misses you.

Ron

I should remember this!!


Suppose you are doing this while standing up: Should your elbows be below your shoulders ?

Cuz the first few times I flew this position I had my elbows above my shoulders and it was shaky. Since I put them below my shoulders i'm stable