mantis

[rehmwa 2]

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And notice that you are supporting your upper body with your arms down? That will bring your head up and let you see more, and it cups the air so you can move it better.

Ron's got it, write a letter in freefall. One exception, don't support your upper body with your arms - i.e., don't push down with your arms to get your head up. Lift your head and upper torso up with your back muscles.

Freediver - don't do this standing up - refer to the freeflying forum.

Actually, I understand what you mean, don't think about it standing up, too confusing. I'd say that the elbows can be anywhere in the plane of the floor (recall watching TV on the floor example). If you are falling slow, they'd be out in front of you (if standing, higher than shoulders). If trying to fall slow, they'd be tucked down a bit toward your ribs.

later

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[smooth 0]

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Real simple -

turn on the TV set

Lie down in front of the TV set on the floor like you're watching it. Take your hands off from under your chin and lay your forearms (in or forward) flat on the floor.

That's about it (from knees to bottom of rib cage relatively flat, the head is lifted with the back muscles - not pushed up with the arms - to a fairly high place, hands and elbows in front in whatever is comfortable, feet are extended a little more than you'd think).

illustration here

[Ron 7]

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Ron's got it, write a letter in freefall. One exception, don't support your upper body with your arms - i.e.,
don't push down with your arms to get your head up. Lift your head and upper torso up with your back
muscles.

I push down with my arms against the air.
If you don't you will pitch forward and your chest will be flat. This is what happens if you try to fly in the boxman.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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Suppose you are doing this while standing up: Should your elbows be below your shoulders ?

Cuz the first few times I flew this position I had my elbows above my shoulders and it was shaky. Since I
put them below my shoulders i'm stable

Your arms should be in front of you, your elbows should be bent around 120 degrees, and your elbows will be in front of your shoulders.

It is not a stable position...Thats what makes it fast.

A Cessna 172 is stable, a Pitts Special is not.

It is the instability that makes it easy to move fast, but you have to take an active roll in FLYING stable....It does not just happen.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

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I push down with my arms against the air.
If you don't you will pitch forward and your chest will be flat. This is what happens if you try to fly in the boxman.

I think we're on the same page. You push to put your arms in position - that's ok. (I'm also pretty sure you are WAY more experienced in 4-way, I've only got 3 years - go Frost)

What I meant is you don't push with your arms to get your head high, you lift the head and torso with the back muscles (straight from tunnel camp - Shannon, Lise, Ian if I remember right). One problem I've seen lately to validate this statement - is students trying to push down to get the torso up, that's wrong - the arms are independent of the torso.

I'd like to be more head high than I am right now. I'll try more pressure on the arms and see how it feels. THANKS

Smooth - Great pics in the clicky.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 7]

Well you have to be arched, but try the pressure and let me know.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Dogwap 0]

Thanks for the info guys.

From your descriptions, it sounds like the name Mantis pretty well describes the position of the upper body, head and arms. Sorta like eatin’ corn-on-the-cob while layin’ on your belly out in the lawn.

But I'm still a little unclear on the lower legs. Is the idea to extend your legs as close to horizontal as possible without jetting forward unintentionally?

Chow

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To those who say it’s a small world, let me tell you,
I’ve seen the world, and it’s only getting bigger.

[rehmwa 2]

You'll need a little more pressure on the legs than normal. But just enough to keep from backsliding. Look at the clicky above and scroll down. The woman in the picture looks just right.

You want to get a coach for at least 5 jumps to learn it right. Tunnel camp anyone?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 7]

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Tunnel camp anyone?

Im coaching in the tunnel on the 22nd.

Sorry, I live here

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

Lucky you - to live right there.

We are starting to get more interested in the Tunnel up north here. I hope to make at least one NSL camp this winter/fall and then just TIME in the spring.

With my team just starting to break into double digit dives (First year, I'm the experienced one on the team so you know we're just starting, but the chemistry is PERFECT so we have a couple great years in front of us), I'm very happy to have all this experience in this forum to draw from - I just wish we'd have more discussions on launches and blocks. I'm thinking 10+ average is doable with the current group just getting familiar, then we can invest in tunnel and some coaching.

With Ron and Melanie in the teens (I'll watch for both teams at nationals and root for each team), I see the light at the end. I just want to go fast.

When we start the new season, I think I'll just start asking more questions and try to drum up more business in this forum.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[karlm 0]

Many of the reasons why the "Mantis" is better have been cover and I will do so again until it sinks in.

Get down on the creepers in the box position, now try and look at your feet, you have to distort your body shape to be more aware. Now try it with 3 friends and you, get into the box and look across at your opposite. I bet you lifted your head, and that's what the "Mantis" does for you, allows you better all round vision of the skydive.

And by lifting the head up, you create more power in the legs with positive energy being available 100% of the time in your booties for turns and control.

Taking some of the pressure off the top end, allows ones hands to be used to pick-up grips and not induce a back slide effect.

If you take a look at a good 4-Way skydive filmed from the side (so you can see the jumpers profile) you will notice that the body ranges from one extreme "Mantis" to almost the classic box during the skydive.

With the "Mantis" your legs are also wider apart than the box, so it also increases stability.

Better never to have met you in my dream than to wake and reach for hands that are not there.

[rehmwa 2]

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With the "Mantis" your legs are also wider apart than the box, so it also increases stability.

Good response, but disagree on the wider knees. Shoulder width apart or just a little more is more effective. If they get out too much, you'll waffle on your turns (told that during tunnel camp).

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 7]

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Good response, but disagree on the wider knees. Shoulder width apart or just a little more is more effective.
If they get out too much, you'll waffle on your turns (told that during tunnel camp).

Agreed, wider knees can limit the amount of drop you can put into a knee. You will start to de arch if they are to wide...

I start people in the tunnel with the knees almost together. Then after they are together I let them drift apart a little.

Shoulder width is good.

Stability is for the boxman....

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

Thanks Ron, that's what happened to me in the tunnel when learning. I swirled whenever I tried to stop a turn - since the legs were too wide, (it must've been) I couldn't really dig a knee straight down - now I understand why Shannon kept telling me to keep them closer and why it worked.

Doesn't mean I am any good at it, just good coaching.

Practice
Practice
Practice
Practice

I really need another camp....

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[karlm 0]

Yip, you guys are correct I watched my 4-Way dives and my legs are closer together than I thought, and teach others.

Thanks for the input.

Better never to have met you in my dream than to wake and reach for hands that are not there.

[Emma 0]

How wide apart your legs are can also depend on your size, weight, shape and flexibility. It is harder to arch with wide legs for many people, and an increased arch also gives increased stability.