Being cut from a load!

[steve1 5]

I've been getting on some loads recently where there is a possibility of getting cut if you mess up.
Recently, at Eloy, our load organizer Phillip (don't call him Phil unless you want a reprimand) kept harping about how he might have to make some cuts. I mean this was before every load. If you were the one who screwed up badly enough, you would be axed. Now, I know I don't really have the skills of most of these folks and I was hesitant about jumping with them, but I figure what the hell. The only way to learn is to jump in and do my best. Most of the time I was flying an outer slot, that again was probably beyond my skill level, but I did okay most every jump. So far I've never been cut, and I was just wondering if any people out there have experienced being cut from a load. I understand the reasoning for this, but I don't relish the day it happens to me. So, is there anyone out there who has experienced being kicked off a load? Am I the only one who worries about this sort of thing? I know you're supposed to think happy thoughts like, "I was lucky just to participate" right after being told to "hit the road Jack." But I'll bet it would still be a pretty depressing thing to deal with, and maybe that is one reason freeflying is becoming so popular. I mean jumping is supposed to be fun, right? I know many jumpers who won't get on a bigger RW load for fear of messing up. Any thoughts on this issue?.......Steve1

[Ron 7]

Well I was cut from 2 loads, and not let on several.

I got cut from a 110 way for being late to the dirt dive. (We had t bring rigs, and my packer was not done).

I got cut from a load by a guy that I cut from a load 2 years before...Man he held a grudge...Oh well we are good friends now.

I have been cut, and I have cut people. I will jump with anyone, but I have to think of the good of the group. If no one cares about the jump, I will let anyone on as long as it is still safe. But in a 20 way you have 19 other jumpers to think about. It is not fair to have one person who is unsafe, or just not at the same level as the others in the group holding the group back.

I will not put people in way over their heads. Its dangerous, and bad for the group, and the person.

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know you're supposed to think happy thoughts
like, "I was lucky just to participate" right after being told to "hit the road Jack." But I'll bet it would still be
a pretty depressing thing to deal with, and maybe that is one reason freeflying is becoming so popular

The last load I was cut from WAS a freefly jump....They can be just as "cutty" as RW folks.

Good jumpers sometimes want to do good jumps. You will feel the same way someday. It does not mean that they don't want to jump with you, they want to feel pushed as well.

ALL JUMPERS WANT TO FEEL PUSHED AT SOME TIME....That means that we ALL want to jump with people better than us sometimes....Just like you. But it does not always happen. So, at times we have to "cut" to push the group.

Its nothing personal.....And I am sure that if you do get cut that they will welcome you back later.

Don't sweat it....I know it sucks, but EVERYONE has been cut.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[BoobieCootie 0]

Being a 183 jump newbie, there're times I feel that I could mess up a dive. My fear is not so much as not doing what I'm supposed to; it's wasting the other jumpers' jump money.

Sometimes I might get lucky and be invited to join a group. The organizer would even re-work the dive plan to accomodate me. I would usually get the easier parts like being part of the base (very important as I've learned the hard way because the skydive can't happen without the base), or one of the outermost slots (didn't matter if I didn't dock).

For times when I solo, I pratice flying my position. I'd ask a group if it's ok to follow them out and just observe. I would practice my turns while I watch the group.

After a while, it does get boring and you're right - I'll begin to journey into the darkside. Still, I'm solo-ing because other freefliers would want to get their money's worth by being able to fly relative with others of the same skill and most importantly, not endangering themselves by having me around. Then I've also had the opportunity to be some aspiring vidiot's guinea pig and get video feedback from my sits (if I'm even in it to begin with)

I've had the opportunity to jump with less experienced jumpers and put together what I've learned from previous loads. It's these opportunities I get to be load organizer that I put more emphasis on myself to do well.

Then there's Weid14 and many others (non-DZ.com) who has been most welcoming to help me progress. And there's Casch who falls like an anchor whom I pass on the goodwill.

[harryskydives 0]

Hey Steve: I have been on both sides of this issue. I load organize and have also been cut for performance reasons, in the past. Some examples: If you have 8-10 people doing 12-14 points and you add a couple of inexperenced people that maybe 3-4 points are their ability level. It is not fair to the others. Many organizers are trying to up the level of play. They are saying go do some serious 4 way and up your level of play. Some times some one gets cut becaus they are unsafe, ie low and flailing under the formation. I have cut people that did not understant that which reinforces my decision. Some times it is politices, or just discipline to keep the skydives moving. I have cut people that want to smoke and joke while others are packing, miss the debrief, and then do not understand why you moved on without them. Most of these things can be over come by explaining what is expected to jump on patricular load. Do not take it personally, yeah right, except to find some people that are happy with jumping with you and work to move up. PS i would rather do hot 4-way than to do a big one point skydive any time.

Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time...

[BoobieCootie 0]

Hey Harry!

If my memory serves me correctly, I got cut from a load with you when I was at Skydive Oregon. Yeah... I was manifested for the next plane

We jump next time we meet ok?

[Shark 0]

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PS i would rather do hot 4-way than to do a big one point skydive any time.

Me too. But I also like doing a 1 point big way on occaision. Lately, a 30 pt. 2 way has been a lot of fun, when the 4 way isn't happening.

[skybytch 259]

I've never been cut... deserved it (at least) once and been "demoted" to the lower experience/more flailprone LO group once.

The "demotion" - hey, I was flailing and they wanted to do better stuff. I was pissed for about a minute, then picked a goal for myself for the next jump.

I screwed up big time on the jump before we set the women's record - major red zone violation. I knew I was going to get axed, and I knew I deserved it. Didn't happen; I was told later that I didn't get cut because I'd been 100% up to then. I think it was more cuz I didn't take anyone out...

I think the best way to look at getting axed is this - pretty much everyone screws up once in awhile. Pretty much everyone has bad days, bad weekends, even bad months. Having the right attitude after getting axed is the key to getting back on the big stuff later - recognize and accept that you screwed up and the goals of the LO/group won't allow that.

Re: getting cut for being late to a dirt dive and/or goofing off. Big way organizers emphasize being on time to dirt dives - think about it. 100+ people standing in the landing area in full gear in the hot sun... waiting for you to show up so they can start. You can avoid this by keeping a close eye on the organizer; see him/her heading to the dirt dive area or getting geared up, it's a good clue that you should be doing the same thing.

It's okay to show up to a dirt dive without your rig if it's still being packed. Another bit of "secret stuff" - find someone before the dirt dive and tell them where you are in case you don't make it on time; at least that way the entire group knows why they're standing in full gear in the hot sun waiting for you.

[Ron 7]

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It's okay to show up to a dirt dive without your rig if it's still being packed. Another bit of "secret stuff" -
find someone before the dirt dive and tell them where you are in case you don't make it on time; at least
that way the entire group knows why they're standing in full gear in the hot sun waiting for you.

Well I didn't miss a load....The organizer put me back on as soon as one of the others organizers told him what happened... No big deal...

I solved this problem by not doing big ways anymore
I don't like them. I got invited to the 300 way, but that is not MY idea of fun. I would rather spend that time/money doing 4way or tunnel.

BTW Jerm....I have 4 hrs of tunnel the next 2 weeks. Hows that for tunnel whore?

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[steve1 5]

Thanks for the input on this. Somehow it is easier to accept being cut, knowing that others have been in the same boat. It's reassuring to know that a 100 way organizer was once cut. I guess the key is doing your best and not getting discouraged when it does happen. It's amazing how much the sport has changed in 30 years. I've only made a couple hundred jumps, since being out of it for 25 years, so I'm learning plenty. Steve1

[harryskydives 0]

We jump next time we meet ok?

For sure! PS Gary & I are taking a few to the tunnel the end of this month, we have one slot open. Interested?

Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time...

[btucker 0]

In over your head, stress, nerves and performance anxiety isn't my idea of fun. Jumping is supposed to be about fun and developing your skills! When I want the stress and performance anxiety; It will be on my terms - in competition. Oh man round1 on jump run, does it get anymore turned on!

The people I jump with with will laugh at my stuff ups and I'll laugh at theirs. If I'm on a jump and someone screws up (as all humans will do) I'm thinking "haha glad it wasn't me." No matter what happens I can use the time to my benefit, work on my body position, even look at the view. It never ever is a waste of money and no one should ever jump with other people who will think like that.

I can understand for extremely large record attempts people will have to be cut. Not everyone will be firing on all cylinders. One of my coaches got cut on the 300way, everyone even champions screws up. I'm sure it wasn't anything personal. In other sports, some teams take a squad to competition so they can pick to best and brightest on the day. I've spent many a day as a reserve - but smile you are part of the team.

I don't understand that on "fun ways" anyone should be cut. Part of the joy of skydiving is people develop their skills. If [say] someone backups going into a donut [always my sin], rather than cut them, bring it to attention of the coach/organizer. Who can then help the person fix it. Then smile at the next jump when they do the move perfect.

Was your dive perfect? If it was maybe you should be cut for not pushing your envelope.


Also, I've always been told that [where a choice exists] the base should have the more experienced people in it.


Blues, Benno

[Ron 7]

This was a question about what to do if you are cut....

It happens, and will happen for as long as people jump.

I will not put someone on a load that it is bad or dangerous for the group.

Groups differ, mistakes differ.

Cuts will happen....They are not done just because..they are done for the good of the group.

It does not mean that that person is never going to be welcomed back..It could just be they had a bad day, or still have some learning to do.

If you get cut....Don't worry it has happened to EVERYONE.

Organizers should do it quietly, and explain why...and offer sugestions to fix that problem..not all do, and that is a shame.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[flyangel2 2]

Ten plus years ago when I went to do my first "big way" experience, I was cut. I was lucky enough to have a LO that explained what I had to work on. I went and did that. Being cut can hurt the ego, but you have to set that aside and take away from the experience what you have to learn to do to be on the next big way.

On the flip side as a LO myself, having to cut a jumper for poor performance isn't fun. Some key information to remember when getting on a bigger way, is to not put yourself in a position that you aren't comfortable with. Work up to being last out and doing the long swoop.

I do hate when jumpers are cut for politics. It happens, and you're left standing on the ground for no reason. That's when you have to become the cheerleader for the rest of the team.

Good luck in your adventures and don't give up.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[Mad47 0]

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In over your head, stress, nerves and performance anxiety isn't my idea of fun. Jumping is supposed to be about fun and developing your skills! When I want the stress and performance anxiety; It will be on my terms - in competition. Oh man round1 on jump run, does it get anymore turned on!

I believe that the only way to learn fast is to get on the loads with people much more experienced than you are. Obviously, this adds some pressure because you do not want to screw up, and you know that it will probably be you who make most mistakes on that dive. However, this pressure is a very small price for the opportunity to absorb the experience accumulated during many years of jumping and seeing how things need to be done. If they do not want to play a 4-way with puppies like I am, I will wait for another chance. Luckily they do want to play quite often

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[canopywhore 0]

I was in Eloy this weekend and I didn't see anyone cut from any of the loads. I also think that 2,3,or 4 ways are a better way to improve you skills.

[Zoltan 0]

Yes, being cut is a hard part of bigways. Luckily i've never been cut form any bigger ways. It does not mean that i've never made mistakes. I made, a made a lot. But the jump organizers somehow never said that it was dangerous to the rest of the group nor blocking the performance of the group.

But I've seen people being cut and I understood their feelings. Being axed out is not a good feeling and on every bigger way jump I feel a bit stressed by the feeling of "what if i screw up".

Well, in the pedagogical psychology there is a concept of stress level. Proper amount of stress supports the performance and beyond this level the stress blocks the performance.
That is why students should fear a bit the about exams or tests, but if the teacher/trainer puts more stress on students then the necessary, then comes the problem. Brain lock and stupid mistakes.

So the idea of axing folks out of big ways is good. It gives the feed back and shows that there is no perfect performance. The only thing you can do about it is to control your stress level and to gain self confidence.

z

[TequilaGirl 0]

I jumped with Phillip out at Eloy during the Holiday Boogie....he is alot of fun to jump with.....and he did make cuts - but most the cuts he made were safety violations.....i.e. someone deploying canopy at 4000 feet without waving off......needless to say I was not to happy dodging that guys canopy......(and if see Phillip again - tell him Cyndi from Texas still won't go out to dinner with him.....hehehe)

[Tf15 0]

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I was in Eloy this weekend and I didn't see anyone cut from any of the loads. I also think that 2,3,or 4 ways are a better way to improve you skills.

Which skills? Not big-way skills, that's for sure.

Three times is enemy action

[Zoltan 0]

"Which skills? Not big-way skills, that's for sure."

???

I think you are mistaken here. What is the big-way skill anyway?

Jup out, dive close to the formation in your own sector, stop 1 meter higher and 2-3 meters far from your slot and dock when your slot is ready. Do not be earlier in your slot then the jumpers in fron of you. Fly your slot and track away flat and long, wave off and look around and pull. Land safely without agressive canopy manouvers.

So which part you can not practice in 2-3-4 way?

[Dolemite 0]

I agree. Someone once told me that my skills wouldnt improve while I was doing a 4 way team. He said that real skill comes from big ways. 20+ stuff. Big ways are for fun, I have been on several 100+ and never been cut. Most places you cant get on a ripping big way. Most of the time you are sitting there waiting for some zoomie or deadspider to get into his/her slot. Not my idea of a good time or getting quality jumps for my money. If you want to work on skills get some ripping small stuff going on. There are some skills that are needed as Zoltan described, but sitting there looking at assholes and elbows for 60 seconds is maybe something I will do once a year so I can get a new picture on my wall of some record. Otherwise I dont partake too much in "fossil formations".

-Dolemite

"Officially disapproved by the man"

[kallend 1,623]

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"Which skills? Not big-way skills, that's for sure."

???

I think you are mistaken here. What is the big-way skill anyway?

Jup out, dive close to the formation in your own sector, stop 1 meter higher and 2-3 meters far from your slot and dock when your slot is ready. Do not be earlier in your slot then the jumpers in fron of you. Fly your slot and track away flat and long, wave off and look around and pull. Land safely without agressive canopy manouvers.

So which part you can not practice in 2-3-4 way?

Coming from a trail plane, or maybe 2 or three planes back from the base plane, exiting as a floater with 7 or 8 people outside the plane, exiting as a late diver without too much delay or getting tangled with the guys in front or beside you, finding your slot among 100+ people, sheepdogging the 5 people ahead of you, flying a piece with 19 other people, finding clean air to deploy in with 100+ other folks tracking away in a staged break-off, dealing with waves coming through the formation, adjusting fall rate as the formation builds to 20, 50, 100 people, landing in a confined area with 100+ other canopies in the air...

If you can learn all that doing 2 or 3-ways, why does Airspeed (among others) offer big way training camps?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

Coming from a trail plane, or maybe 2 or three planes back from the base plane, exiting as a floater with 7
or 8 people outside the plane, exiting as a late diver without too much delay or getting tangled with the
guys in front or beside you, finding your slot among 100+ people, sheepdogging the 5 people ahead of you,
flying a piece with 19 other people, finding clean air to deploy in with 100+ other folks tracking away in a
staged break-off, dealing with waves coming through the formation, adjusting fall rate as the formation
builds to 20, 50, 100 people, landing in a confined area with 100+ other canopies in the air...

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All this is just swooping, and can be learned on any size formation....Yes the swooping from another A/C requires the use of another airplane, but you can do 8way out of 2 cessna's....They don't need to be twin otters Swooping is swooping, and can be done on a two way....And I have had LONG ass swoops on 20 ways from the back, and short swoops on 40 ways.

Tracking to clear airspace I do on EVERY jump, not just 100ways

If you can learn all that doing 2 or 3-ways, why does Airspeed (among others) offer big way training
camps?

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Because you make more with 40 people paying than with 4???

Both large and small groups have opportunities to learn...Most smaller jumps produce more. Thats why most coach jumps are one on ones ,not one on 30 ways.

ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Coming from a trail plane, or maybe 2 or three planes back from the base plane, exiting as a floater with 7
or 8 people outside the plane, exiting as a late diver without too much delay or getting tangled with the
guys in front or beside you, finding your slot among 100+ people, sheepdogging the 5 people ahead of you,
flying a piece with 19 other people, finding clean air to deploy in with 100+ other folks tracking away in a
staged break-off, dealing with waves coming through the formation, adjusting fall rate as the formation
builds to 20, 50, 100 people, landing in a confined area with 100+ other canopies in the air...

Quote

All this is just swooping, and can be learned on any size formation....Yes the swooping from another A/C requires the use of another airplane, but you can do 8way out of 2 cessna's....They don't need to be twin otters Swooping is swooping, and can be done on a two way....And I have had LONG ass swoops on 20 ways from the back, and short swoops on 40 ways.

Tracking to clear airspace I do on EVERY jump, not just 100ways

ron

I'm missing something here. How can you learn to deal with 100+ other canopies in the air in "any size formation", and how is it all "just swooping"? Ditto for exiting in a large group, flying very large pieces, and not getting lost? You can't learn how to fly a 12-way piece on a 2-way or 3-way. You can't learn how to be front-front float on a trail plane on a 3-way.

You ignored most of the issues.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[weid14 0]

ah, what the heck....

and as usuall, you have chosen one side and will not listen to another (much more experienced) veiwpoint.

In order to do all the things required on big ways, you must learn to do them on smaller skydives, you can practice every exit situation in a small skydive.

learning to fly your body gives you many more skills useful in a big way than just going out any flailing around in a big way.

[wmw999 2,122]

OK everyone. Just remember -- there is one and only one correct way to learn anything. Just one. And each person's life should be a quest to find that single way to find all truth

Personally, I'd have to say that you can't learn everything on small loads in the same way that you can on big loads, but it's for damn sure cheaper and safer to learn the vast majority of it on smaller loads.

And just ask my son -- I'm always right, I never lie, and I know everything

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)