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steve1

Being cut from a load!

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ah, what the heck....

and as usuall, you have chosen one side and will not listen to another (much more experienced) veiwpoint.

In order to do all the things required on big ways, you must learn to do them on smaller skydives, you can practice every exit situation in a small skydive.

learning to fly your body gives you many more skills useful in a big way than just going out any flailing around in a big way.



Thank you and I concur....

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"If you can learn all that doing 2 or 3-ways, why does Airspeed (among others) offer big way training camps?"

If I were an ironic ass (I'm actually :)But of course the best way to train for bug way is to jump big way, stupid who doubts it.
I have never participated in any special big way training camp and i never had major problem with finding my way to a slot.

Anyway, partially you are very right, ordinary 2ways do not help too much. But if you know the principles of the big ways you can train both mentally and physically for them.
Jump a two way with 10+ seconds delay. Plan the two way jump so that you decrease your fall rate very much and let your body to dock on you, jump tracking competition for fun and write the big way rules with red in on your bedrooms wall.

z

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ah, what the heck....

and as usuall, you have chosen one side and will not listen to another (much more experienced) veiwpoint.



Maybe - I'll admit I've only been on 22 jumps that were bigger than a 250 way.

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In order to do all the things required on big ways, you must learn to do them on smaller skydives, you can practice every exit situation in a small skydive.



No you can't. You can't practice being 18th to exit an Otter from the left-trail position (when the base is on the opposite side from the door) by doing 2 or 3-ways. Neither can you practice being one of 8 floaters by doing 3 or 4 ways.

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learning to fly your body gives you many more skills useful in a big way than just going out any flailing around in a big way.



It's much more than flying your body - it's about being safe on break off and under canopy too. More people got cut for safety issues than for flying skill issues on the big ways I've been on. Have you ever landed with 250+ other canopies in the air around you? How did you practice for that on a 4-way?
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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ah, what the heck....

and as usuall, you have chosen one side and will not listen to another (much more experienced) veiwpoint.

In order to do all the things required on big ways, you must learn to do them on smaller skydives, you can practice every exit situation in a small skydive.

learning to fly your body gives you many more skills useful in a big way than just going out any flailing around in a big way.



Thank you and I concur....



Have you ever been in the landing pattern with 250+ other canopies around you? How did you practice that on a 4-way?
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Your right you can't prepare yourself for 100+ dives by doing 4-way, but I think the post started with someone being worried about weing cut on a 12way or something close to that. I thought it was about a LO that jumps with all skill levels at once. I think that is great to jump with all levels. All I'm saying is that if you put a low time jumper on a jump like a 12way they might not learn how to fly their slot as quickly. I think they worry about all of the people around them. They feel more pressure of making a mistake. They may get pulled out in a chunk it flies great and then they key the next point. That person usually forgets about things like flying their slot and fallrate. I was just saying that low time jumers should start out small and get a solid skill set. Just my opinion, it all good.:)

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If you can fly your body, you can fly solo, a 2 way, a 10 way a 100 way piece.

Every exit can be done in a small group....In fact I have done several exits on 2 ways that I would never do in a 30 way...Like hanging upside down from the bar, or hanging from a seat belt outside the plane.


John, your a pilot....Collision avoidance is collision avoidance... MOST accidents I have seen have been only 2 people hitting each other....Thats it, infact I have never heard of a 3 or 4 way collision...Well that means that all it takes is 2 people to collide.....If you can fly your canopy and keep your head looking around....You can avoid 99% of collisions


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You can't learn how to
be front-front float on a trail plane on a 3-way.



Really? I can practive front float on a solo....And all you ahve to do is leave with the other group...how hard is that?

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You ignored most of the issues.



Nope, you just choose to ignore my input.

If you can jump, fly to your slot, track away, deploy, and not collide with anyone, and can stay calm...you can do a big way. I know this, I have done several big ways, and was invited on the 300way, but 4way won out. My first big way was the Javelin 110 way, I had only 600 jumps and was 24 years old. The largest thing I had been on before was a 40way...I had no problem being the second to last diver Left trail otter. I don't see the big issue here.

Ron
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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ah, what the heck....

and as usuall, you have chosen one side and will not listen to another (much more experienced) veiwpoint.

In order to do all the things required on big ways, you must learn to do them on smaller skydives, you can practice every exit situation in a small skydive.

learning to fly your body gives you many more skills useful in a big way than just going out any flailing around in a big way.



Thank you and I concur....



Have you ever been in the landing pattern with 250+ other canopies around you? How did you practice that on a 4-way?



Dude,

Don't get so bent. Do you remember the original post? I was merely agreeing with Weid14 since most of your post show antagonism towards others. And no, I haven't been in a landing pattern with 250+ canopies. Have you ever landed a 3 stack from the pilot position? Your skygod attitude amazes me. Go back and read the orignial post and then respond.

Like yourself I jump at a large dropzone and newbies get lost and frustrated. We have skills camps for every level and encourage them to participate in the 2 way camps after they get their A licenses. New freefliers learn about exits and presentation skills that will help them in their discipline. While others decide that the relative work is a lot of fun. Even experienced skydivers will participate. These people are building their skill level so that they may have the opportunity to participate in something larger and/or more complex.

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If you can jump, fly to your slot, track away, deploy, and not collide with anyone, and can stay calm...you can do a big way. I know this, I have done several big ways, and was invited on the 300way, but 4way won out. My first big way was the Javelin 110 way, I had only 600 jumps and was 24 years old. The largest thing I had been on before was a 40way...I had no problem being the second to last diver Left trail otter. I don't see the big issue here.

Ron



Your point would be more credible if the largest thing you had been on before the 110 was a 4-way, not a 40 way.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Still, from 40 way to 110 way....

2 A/C to 5? And almost last out of the left trail?
Not a big deal really...Thats why I don't do big ways...I personally find them boring as hell.

And you didn't respond to all the other things I wrote...I have noticed that when you don't have an answer....You don't reply.

I think that big ways help you learn big ways...Hell I never said they didn't. If I were going to put a 100 way up, I would not just grab 4 way jumpers that have never swooped.

But you can learn the skills need to do big ways on any skydive.

And a 20 way piece flies just like a two way if people are doing the right thing.

Ron
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Still, from 40 way to 110 way....

2 A/C to 5? And almost last out of the left trail?
Not a big deal really...Thats why I don't do big ways...I personally find them boring as hell.



Well, that's your privilege. Let's not forget that this part of the discussion was prompted by the statement

"I was in Eloy this weekend and I didn't see anyone cut from any of the loads. I also think that 2,3,or 4 ways are a better way to improve you skills."


Note the word "better". Your have argued that you can learn (some) big way skills with 2, 3 and 4 ways, but I don't see that you have made the case that they are learned better than by actually doing big ways.

Your statement above relates to going from 40 to 110, not from 2, 3 or 4 to 40.



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And you didn't respond to all the other things I wrote...I have noticed that when you don't have an answer....You don't reply.

I think that big ways help you learn big ways...Hell I never said they didn't. If I were going to put a 100 way up, I would not just grab 4 way jumpers that have never swooped.



Why not, if they have learned better?


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But you can learn the skills need to do big ways on any skydive.



Disagree, but even if you are right, do you learn them better ?


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And a 20 way piece flies just like a two way if people are doing the right thing.



Yes it does, but the inputs need to be different, and the only way to learn them is to do them.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Well, that's your privilege. Let's not forget that this part of the discussion was prompted by the statement

"I was in Eloy this weekend and I didn't see anyone cut from any of the loads. I also think that 2,3,or 4
ways are a better way to improve you skills."


Note the word "better". Your have argued that you can learn (some) big way skills with 2, 3 and 4 ways,
but I don't see that you have made the case that they are learned better than by actually doing big ways.

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I think you can learn more about skydiving on a 2 way than on a 100 way. Maybe not all big way specific skills. (And I think you can LEARN them, but not PRACTICE them) This was not just about big ways, it was about learning skills.
do you not agree that you can learn more skill son a 2 way than on a 100 way?

Everything you need for a big way can be learned on a 2 way:

Swooping....Leave 10 seconds after the guy.
Fallrate...Have the guy slow and speed up.
Tracking....Track like hell.
Canopy avoidance...look around.

Now to PRACTICE them in real life, big is the only way to TRAIN for big...But you CAN learn all the SKILLS on small ways...With a greater chance of success.



Ron
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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>So which part you can not practice in 2-3-4 way?

Covering 1000 yards of separation quickly and stopping before you take out the formation. Damping a wave. Flying as part of a line. Dealing with people on both sides of you, close, at breakoff. Exiting at the right time if you're a trail floater. Figuring out what to do when the guy in front of you is lost, or your slot is five armspans wide. Following 5 people into the formation. Keying on 5 people out of 30.

4-way skills are critical, but you need to learn a bit more to make the jump from good 4-way jumper to good big-way jumper.

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I've been cut from a few dives. The axe was grinding, the pressure was there and it got to me. I didn't think so at the time, but it was the right thing to do for the group. The LO's were Manos and Ponce De Leon.
A few years later I was jumping with Roger as LO again, doing good dives, but they could have been better and I was inwardly begging for the axe to come out. Those 2 or 3 "last chances" boil down to 2 of 3 marginal dives for the group... and that's not nice.
The axe is good. We preform best under pressure and when there is a chance of no more chances, we try our best. If that pressure is too much, step off, or explain to the LO that you're not comfortable on the outside and would prefer being closer to the middle.
Hang in there. If you get axed, you'll learn, and most LO's will give you another chance when your skills improve. or slide you to a smaller group on the day. Smile. Say thanks for the dives. Try again later.

t
It's the year of the Pig.

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I do not track any different after a 4way then after a 100+ way, maybe shorter or longer sometimes, but with the same speed and same intensity same technique.

I wave of even before deploying my reserve :) the routines are burned in the nerves and the muscles. I do not fly any different a 2way then a 10 way line in a 60 way. Expecting the unexpected... being ready to react if something happens. And 4 way can funnel for the same reason as a 100+ way.

I still do not believe that this big way stuff is a magic. I have seen on the 2points 120 way 5-600 times jumped novices performing perfectly without any special big way experiences and sometimes I see skygods screwing up badly.

Imho being a good 4way jumper is way more difficult then to be a good big way jumper.
But I do not say that big way is easy or piece of cake.
I just say that being a good big way jumper does not require more then being a well controlled, focused, jumper in general with proper nerves and attitude.

z

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THis is hard for me to understand, since i come from a Rural Kansas DZ with 1 C-182 and a quite country airport ALL to ourselves. Being cut from a load? I would kill that load organizer!! What if that was the last load of the day??? If my pin is in, and i'm manifested, and no students are waiting, thats my spot! >:(
I see the big DZ's and their procedures, it just seems like such a waste sometimes. If you keep jumping with those of your experience level, your never going to get any better. Some of the best jumps, where i have learned the most, have been where i have been invited to do a 3 way or 4 ways with coaches or instructors, and sometimes i have screwed up, yea royaly. [:/]
I guess this goes back to the problem of being at a DZ with people who take a jump as seriously as if they were at Nationals, and some people (Like mE) who want to have fun and learn as much as possible (more skill, more fun). Half the fun is in learning, and maybe some big loads should just calm down and accomodate for other jumpers.
B.T.W. , it seems that being cut from a load at a DZ where there are not enough aircraft to keep everyone in the air as much as they please, is simply, well, retarded.
Sometimes i just wish people would calm down and enjoy themselves more.

- sds
"Just stop whining and put it in the bag, you have a reserve - My mentor on ProPacking"

=========Shaun ==========


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You're not quite getting it.

There are loads for lower-experience jumpers to cut their teeth on and there are loads for more experienced skydivers to go push their limits.

Someone without big-way experience has no business being on a 60-way, and someone who can't track or turn 4 points on a simple 4-way has no business trying to get in on a multi-point 12-way.

It is up to the load organizer to gauge the talent of the jumpers they are working with and to place them in the slots where they have the greatest chance of success.

If someone isn't up to the task at hand, a good organizer will tell that person, and not risk the safety or enjoyment of the rest of the group. A good L.O. will also tell that person why they were cut and what they need to work on.

We all skydive to have fun, but we don't all usually like to waste a jump-ticket on a zoo-load or a complex dive we know won't build.
Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

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You missed the point dude :) Being cut from a load means that a person is axed, kicked out from a formation load, because of safety problems or because of different experience level. I've seen people being cut from a dive on Herc boogie because they were too good :)

z

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I can see where a single 182 DZ has limited options. But getting cut from a load is not Skydiving specific. Think basketball. Varsity, Jv, pick up games. Not every one gets to play 4th quarter for the Bulls. Some people have put much time money and effort to up their game. In fact you say " (more skill, more fun). Half the fun is in learning," I aggree. At the big DZ's you wont miss loads. A few guys with about 200 jumps just returned from florida and they made 46 jumps each in 5 and half days.B| But they did not get on every load. BTW if you have one 182 and there are ten jumpers on the DZ how does every one get to make the sunset load?:S

Who took this picture??


Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time...

nati003.jpg

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>I do not track any different after a 4way then after a 100+ way . . .

I definitely do. If I am on a 4-way I track off and keep an eye on the other 3/4 people. When I'm clear I pull. On a big way I track to pull altitude, and check above me a _lot_, and on occasion take it lower to make sure I clear someone above me - which generally isn't a consideration on 4-ways.

>I do not fly any different a 2way then a 10 way line in a 60 way.

Again, I do. In a 2-way, if the other person is flailing about, I might compensate for their changes in fall rate. I cannot do that in a 10 way line as part of a 60 way - I have to hold relative to the base, or at most split the difference. It's not rocket science, it just takes a bit of practice.

>And 4 way can funnel for the same reason as a 100+ way.

Never seen a wave in a 4-way develop into a motion that could toss people off it, nor have I ever lacked the strength to hold onto a grip in a 4-way. They are both RW but they're different animals.

>Imho being a good 4way jumper is way more difficult then to be a
>good big way jumper.

I agree there. It's much easier to take a 4-way god and turn him into a good big-way person than take a big-way god and turn him into a good 4-way person.

>I just say that being a good big way jumper does not require more
> then being a well controlled, focused, jumper in general with proper
> nerves and attitude.

Add proper experience to that and I'd agree.

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>Half the fun is in learning, and maybe some big loads should just
>calm down and accomodate for other jumpers.

And perhaps some new jumpers should calm down and learn some RW skills by doing 2 and 4 ways before they clamor to get on the 20-ways. You learn a lot more turning 4 points on a 4 way than you do never touching a 20 way.

>B.T.W. , it seems that being cut from a load at a DZ where there are
> not enough aircraft to keep everyone in the air as much as they
> please, is simply, well, retarded.

Putting a jumper on a load where he is guaranteed to flail, and thus hose the dive (and not learn anything in the process) is pretty dumb. Letting him stay on a load where he is a danger to others, due to his lack of experience with that sort of flying, is even more stupid. Sorry I'm not more politically correct, but not everyone has the same skills - some people can't do some things. It's a sad but inevitable part of learning to skydive.

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