What you don't know

[davelepka 4]

Time and time again we see the posts from newbies asking about this inappropriate canopy or that inappropriate canopy, only to have them reply in outrage that anyone would point out their choices are inappropriate, like this guy -

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3909918;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

The argument always comes around to two basic points, the one being, "You've never seen me fly, so you don't know what I can do", and the ever popular, "I've already made 'x' jumps on such and such a canopy, and they went fine, I even stood up the landings".

The singular argument you can always make to these folks is that, 'You don't know what you don't know', and it's correct and valid. Selecting the right canopy for the job requires experience with several different canopies in several different situations. Lacking such expereince, a person has no place from which to make such a call.

So to all you newbies who can't seem to get it through your thick skull that you don't know much of anything (with regards to canopies), I offer you these two examples -

Case one - A jumper with 1000+ jumps, and several instructional ratings. Jumping a Velo 103, with previous experience on other, smaller high performance canopies, nobody batted an eye as his canopy choice. On a long spot he made it back to the DZ in brakes, and initiated a 90 degree turn onto final. With little airspeed coming into the turn, the ground hungry Velo was in the porcess of building speed (and control effectiveness) when the jumper hit the ground. No amount of stabbing the brakes was going to make that high performance canopy respond from such a slow airspeed entering the turn.

A little higher turn initiation would have done the trick. Rolling into the turn with more airspeed would have likewise changed the outcome of this incident. As it sits, the outcome is that the jumper died in the hospital later that day.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3908128;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Case two - This jumper is a VERY experienced canopy pilot with something in the neighborhood of 5000 jumps, with a good number flying and swooping high performance canopies and holds an instructional rating. Toward the end of a routine jump, he flew up behind one of his buddies, also an experienced jumper flying an identical canopy. Upon closing in on his pal, the jumper used a deep braked 'S' turn to keep from overtaking the other canopy. He made this turn acorss the wake of the other canopy, and stalled half of his canopy, throwing him into diving line twists at about 1000ft. Due to a long, extended chest strap, the jumper managed to get to his cutaway, and was less succesful in finding his reaserve handle, with his Cypres ultimately deploying the reserve for him. The jumper landed safely under his reserve.

A difference of just a few feet in altitude where th jumper made his 'S' turn would have made this a non issue. A touch less brakes on the 'S' turn would have made this a non issue. As it was, he asked too much from his canopy in air that was too disturbed for the canopy to keep flying.

(In an odd coincidence, the first incident took place at Skydive Elsinore where last year another jumper went in becuase he couldn't find his reserve handle after a low cutaway due to a loose chest strap and a set of camera wings, much the same way the jumper in the second story couldn't find his handle)

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3893058;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

So newbies, what don't you know? I can't say for sure, but hold yourself againt these two examples, and try to imagine how much these two jumpers know (knew) that you don't, and then think that even that wealth of knowledge was not enough to keep them out of harms way.

1000 jumps, several ratings, and experiecne on even smaller wings wasn't even enough to keep the first jumper alive.

5000 jumps, with most of them on high performance wings, an instructional rating and he almost met his maker just flying behind another canopy.

How do you stack up?

[Floflo 0]

"Yeah, but my [overloaded for my experience] Sabre 2 isn't a high performance canopy (Proof: I always stand up my landings). Anyway, I never fly close to another canopy, and I know I must not make a low turn, what was this guy thinking by the way?"

[frost 1]

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If with 500 jumps i had no issues with 2.1 [wingloading], plus on the forums there are people who with the same experience fly 2.5 and [not to mention] Luigi jumped a 37 with no intermediate downsizes, then IMHO it's not unreasonable to see my 1.9 wingloading as an adequate one.

Go argue with that one!

P.S. Dave, dont you ever get tired from holding back talented new pilots and trying to stop them from achieving maximum results?

[DocPop 1]

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Case two - This jumper is a VERY experienced canopy pilot with something in the neighborhood of 5000 jumps, with a good number flying and swooping high performance canopies and holds an instructional rating.

[devil's advocate]
So if even this guy could not handle it, then perhaps all high performance canopies should be banned for the safety of all?
[/devil's advocate]

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[ecnuob 0]

As a jumper currently "pushing the limits" as you say. Neither of your story's have ANY real relevance to me. Comparing me flying conservatively on a Tri-150 or Saber2 loaded at 1.26, and someone with a ton of experience flying a highly loaded, fully elliptical canopy to it's limit are completely different fruits.

Tell us the story about the guy who downsized from 1:1 to 1:3 at 100 jumps and wasn't a retard trying to learn to swoop. I.e. flying a normal rectangle pattern onto final at 200 feet and had an accident that could have been prevented by being on a larger canopy and it might mean something.

I have actually found it much easier to plane out and smoothly land a saber2 150, then the 170. And as far as the twitchiness or responsiveness of the 150 over the 170, yeah the 150 spirals faster, but the turn-in/initiation rate has very little difference.

The only situation that comes to mind (you don't know what you don't know, so feel free to enlighten me) is the panic induced turn to avoid something in the landing or flight path and hooking it in.

I've probably proved my ignorance in here somewhere already, and I invite you to fill me in. I started AFF on a sabre2 190 with an exit weight of 190, 2 through 17 on a Tri-175, 17-22 on a Sabre2 170, 22-55 on a tri-150, 56-59 on a sabre2 150. And will likely make the next few on a nitron 150 (undecided on that one). I was certainly nervous the first 10 or so on the triathlon-150 and flew and landed a considerable distance from the main landing area, and certainly had to plf a good percentage of those landings. But with a bit of coaching I feel quite safe on the tri and Sabre 150's and can land consistently within 10m of target. Quite frankly that sabre2 150 lands like a dream and feels far more stable then the rest!!!

[Dutton 0]

I don't think anyone really cares if you kill yourself through your own ignorance.

Like the man said- not all the baby turtles make it to the sea...

We all go through that stage where nobody can tell us anything, and hopefully we grow out of it before something bad happens.

[dragon2 0]

OK, here ya go. This jumper was one of the reasons for our canopy BSRs.

Jumper with 100 jumps, just bought himself a sabre 150, loaded at a little over 1.2.

Quite a windy day, at the time I resigned myself to driving the van and taking landing pictures, I had a couple hundred jumps then.

Guy comes in with the wind, flying an unfamilar-to-me canopy. Hey that's with his new canopy! Cool, I'll take some landing pics of him, he'll like that. Wait, he's not turning... Guess it's one of our cameraguys? Dunno..

Joe finally and not very high turns 90 degrees crosswind, he's now crabbing, maybe gonna hit a barb wire if he keeps going crosswind.

Instead of landing crosswind or even finishing the pattern, he now turns 270 degrees the other way

Canopy dances left, canopy dances/dives right, canopy makes it to 270 but DIVES, canopy hits ground, jumper hits ground, jumper hits ground AGAIN. Ow cr*******p.
I run towards him, me being the only one in the landing area at that time.

When I reach him, he's lying curled up next to a divot where he hit the first time. He's barely breathing, if you can even call the noise he makes that. I have no f*** idea what to do, other than "he's making noise so he's alive and breathing" and "do not touch him" and "keep talking to him, there'll be help here soon"

There was. Said help actually included a doctor that was at the airport watching planes, even he didn't dare touch him in any way.
Then the ambulance came.

When the ambulance left, we were very glad it was with sirens on.

The doctors debated surgery for him since he was presumed a lost case, but it was a slow day apparently, no other emergencies and they did the surgery on him. He had 2 broken femurs, one bleeding (he was lying on top of it), broken collarbones and the like and hit his head pretty bad. But he made it. His recovery took a year. And he's jumping again, up to this day. He doesn't remember why he did what he did, he doesn't remember a thing about his accident, wish I didn't either and oh yeah did I take any pics while he was lying there...

Well may I should have, as an in-your-face for people with mad skillz. But of course at the time my mind was completely elsewhere.

I had trouble closing my eyes for a few weeks after witnessing that, kept seeing the canopy turn turn dive hit hit run so that kept me awake a good while.

This was the first serious accident I've witnessed, after that unfortunately a few more, most of them jumpers with a couple hunderd jumps and stiletto-type canopies.

I do NOT want to see (and HEAR!) any more thank you, and if you think about jumping a canopy most here are saying is over your head, it's not just about YOU, you may want to consider the people who have to clean up after you

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[ecnuob 0]

What makes you think his outcome would have been any different on a 170? Sounds like he shouldn't have been jumping in those winds and clearly made a flight pattern mistake that he could just as easily made under a different canopy. The 170 may have lessened his injuries i suppose, but the accident most likely would have still happened. Germain's chart puts that jumper between a 158 and a 190, so if he had been flying a 160 would you still blame his canopy choice, or the fact they he clearly fucked up while flying it and by being in the air in winds high enough that you yourself chose not to jump?

[Decodiver 0]

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As a jumper currently "pushing the limits" as you say. Neither of your story's have ANY real relevance to me.

'Cos you're good right?

Those stories have relevance to everyone because they highlight complacency.

Learn to suck up info wherever you can 'cos it might just stop you doing the same thing one day.

Cheers,

Coops (who knows fuck all).

[Flyfast 0]

Another TBTB.

Looking forward to seeing you on the SoFPiDaRF page, cool guy.

ZC OG

[ecnuob 0]

You're right they do highlight complacency and i should have said any real relevance to the topic at hand. I still fail to see the relevance to the 100 jump wonder that's contemplating a 1.2 wingload, I'd bet they are being anything but complacent.

I never said I was good, but I've had good instruction and mentoring that has approved my choices every step of the way.

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Another TBTB.

I know the school of fast downsizing one but whats TBTB?

[JohanW 0]

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What makes you think his outcome would have been any different on a 170? Sounds like he shouldn't have been jumping in those winds and clearly made a flight pattern mistake that he could just as easily made under a different canopy. The 170 may have lessened his injuries i suppose, but the accident most likely would have still happened. Germain's chart puts that jumper between a 158 and a 190, so if he had been flying a 160 would you still blame his canopy choice, or the fact they he clearly fucked up while flying it and by being in the air in winds high enough that you yourself chose not to jump?

The outcome would have been very different under a 170.

The lines would have been longer and he would have had more fabric over his head. So his recovery arc would have been shorter, his angle of arrival would have been less and his speed would have been lower.

Yes, he would have had the accident anyway. But the point of flying a less unforgiving canopy is not to protect you from making mistakes - it's to keep you alive to learn from them as you will inevitably make them.

F*cking up is inevitable, even if *you* of course never will. But you can stack the odds in your favour by flying a wing that will make the resulting impact more survivable.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[JohnDeere 0]

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I started AFF on a sabre2 190 with an exit weight of 190, 2 through 17 on a Tri-175, 17-22 on a Sabre2 170, 22-55 on a tri-150, 56-59 on a sabre2 150.

Cant believe nobody has called this BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is not an instructor/DZO/DZM that would start you out on that or progress you like that! Troll on down the road!

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[Heatmiser 0]

OK. You want relevance. I got 3 stories. All personally witnessed by me. A jumper, A licensed, around 50 jumps, bought a Nitro 150. Exit weight, 185. Asymmetrical flare, panicked and planted his foot instead of sliding or PLF'ing. Torn ACL, No jumping for 3 months. Another jumper, A license stamp still fresh, buys a Nitro 120, loaded at .95 to 1. Proceeds to pound in for next 25 jumps or so. If she wasn't so light, I'm sure she would be injured. Third jumper, 225 jumps, moves from a Turbo Z 155 to a Nitro 135. Third jump, decided to jump it at night, Broken heel. Do you know how hard you have to hit to break your heel? Dude. The sky is not going anywhere. What is your hurry? Are you going to be happier, or cooler flying the Nitro you barely have control over, than the Sabre 2? BTW, ALL these stories were with straight in approaches with no surprises or obstacles.

What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo

Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama

[danielcroft 2]

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You're right they do highlight complacency and i should have said any real relevance to the topic at hand. I still fail to see the relevance to the 100 jump wonder that's contemplating a 1.2 wingload, I'd bet they are being anything but complacent.

You don't have to be complacent to make a bad decision and when you're not armed with sufficient information it's very difficult to avoid some of the more common pitfalls.

If you do switch to a nitron, you're going to need quite a while to train yourself to respond to obstacles (in the air or on the ground) appropriately, it's the stuff that jumps out and surprises you that is the problem. The knee-jerk yanking of a toggle at 50ft would probably be recoverable on a more standard wing with a lower loading if you reacted quickly enough, could the same be said for a fully elliptical canopy? What aerodynamic factors are at play? Do you know? Does it matter if you know if you don't have the right training and experience?

I'm not the greatest canopy pilot in the world and truth be told I'm loading higher than Brian's chart recommends. My canopy choices are also based on the opinion of the people who coach me and watch all my landings either in person, on video and often both. I'd love to be flying a Crossfire 2 right now but I'm not ready.

Many people, experienced canopy pilots, world champions and excellent coaches have said ad infinitum that following a controlled and incremental canopy progression (it's called a progression for a reason) actually makes someone a *better* canopy pilot.

The "what you don't know" is exactly how the incidents Dave mentioned relate to the low timer getting on a high loading, complacency is just another way of saying that the person wasn't evaluating the situation clearly, either through lack of knowledge, lack of focus or otherwise. You arguing otherwise shows that there's a lot you still don't know you don't know as is true for me.

[P-dro 0]

One more example.
A friend of mine decided he could ignore the wingload BSR that exists here. He knew he he could handle it because you know he was careful. He had roughly 150 jumps and bought a 150 where he should have been under a 190.


One day he ended up in proximity of a canopy he didn't see coming, close to the ground. He gave a sharp input to the toggles and smashed into the ground. He fractured his pelvis and his leg in 3 places. He stayed screamning in agony on the ground during 40 minutes before being taken to the hospital by the paramedics. He remained uncertain of wether he could walk again normally, or even have normal genital functions for 3 months. To this day he still limps and has quit jumping.


Most probably a larger canopy would not have prevented the accident (he may still have had more time to look around and spot the incoming canopy) but would have certainly mitigated the consequences.

Johan has perfectly resumed it:

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But the point of flying a less unforgiving canopy is not to protect you from making mistakes - it's to keep you alive to learn from them as you will inevitably make them.

[dragon2 0]

You. Are. Not. Getting. The. Point.

You're either a troll or a DGIT, hopefully for you (and your jump mates) you're the former.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Joellercoaster 6]

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As a jumper currently "pushing the limits" as you say. Neither of your story's have ANY real relevance to me.

Sure they do.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[theonlyski 3]

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You're right they do highlight complacency and i should have said any real relevance to the topic at hand. I still fail to see the relevance to the 100 jump wonder that's contemplating a 1.2 wingload, I'd bet they are being anything but complacent.

I never said I was good, but I've had good instruction and mentoring that has approved my choices every step of the way.

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Another TBTB.

I know the school of fast downsizing one but whats TBTB?

Id say it means Too Badass To Bounce, which, as we have established (even as recently as a few days ago) that people way better than you, are not TBTB.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message