Recovery Arcs on intermediate canopies.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Would you drive a Ferrari as an intermediate driver? Canopies don't have brakes like cars do, you cannot let go of the gas pedal.

Actually you can lose control of some cars (especially on something like a rear engine Porsche 911) simply by taking your foot off of the gas and then cornering fast. It's called "lift off over steer" and this occurs because the weight is shifted to the front of the car and off of the rear wheels while cornering. To prevent this one must apply a small amount of gas after braking in the turn in order to shift the weight back onto the rear wheels.

But this of course is total thread drift.

Sorry I can not help myself. I like swooping and driving fast cars around race tracks.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[JohanW 0]

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Canuck, no offence intended. Your 1.6 jumped at me, I thought it was 1.9, and then I started reading.

I guess my memory is not as good as I hoped it would be. Personally I would choose a different tool if my wingloading was approaching 2.0 or higher. I still stand by my original words that say Crossfire2 is a good canopy to transition in order to learn advanced canopy flying techniques once someone has proved themselves as an intermediate. Plus it is possible for someone (assuming they are mature and have some mentoring/coaching) to skip the Crossfire2 and jump into something like a Katana. But neither one of these canopies should be considered intermediate canopies.

I guess it hinges on the definition of an intermediate canopy pilot. We fully agree on the Crossfire and the Katana not being intermediate canopies; I guess a canopy pilot that has proven himself as an intermediate and is learning advanced canopy flying techniques is really an advanced pilot, especially when mature (and you had better be with canopies like that

Johan.
I am. I think.

[ianmdrennan 2]

30 days should help you cool your jets.

For the rest of you: Keep it under control or I'll smite thee with a ban hammer

Performance Designs Factory Team

[hparrish 0]

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I know when I did my first high performance coaching while flying a Crossfire2 I was pushed up 200 feet from my initial setup altitude. It was not easy at first being pushed up so high (the riser pressure on the Crossfire does build up pretty high), but it was absolutely the right thing to do. I did not know it at the time, but I was living in a moderate corner as an intermediate swooper and none of the locals knew enough about high performance competition swooping to correct me in those early days.

This is the best paragraph written in this entire thread. So True.

[DocPop 1]

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I know when I did my first high performance coaching while flying a Crossfire2 I was pushed up 200 feet from my initial setup altitude. It was not easy at first being pushed up so high (the riser pressure on the Crossfire does build up pretty high), but it was absolutely the right thing to do. I did not know it at the time, but I was living in a moderate corner as an intermediate swooper and none of the locals knew enough about high performance competition swooping to correct me in those early days.

I had the same experience (got my initiation alt pushed up on my most recent canopy course). What was the 'secret' to being able to make this higher altitude work without being overcome by the riser pressure? (FYI - I am already starting in fairly deep brakes as this was what my canopy coach recommended)

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[superstu 0]

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I had the same experience (got my initiation alt pushed up on my most recent canopy course). What was the 'secret' to being able to make this higher altitude work without being overcome by the riser pressure? (FYI - I am already starting in fairly deep brakes as this was what my canopy coach recommended)

90% of the people i work with need to bump up their altitudes, and i know other coaches on my team, PDFT, ect, say the same thing. it amazes pretty much everyone how high you can actually start a turn and still get it to the ground, just need the right tools in the tool box

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[DocPop 1]

Stu - that is really what I am asking.

What are the right tools for someone like me who tends to plane out high, but does NOT want to take my start altitude down?

The following do seem to help, but I want to know if there might be more things to add in:

- start from brakes, then go to double fronts before starting the turn.
- make the turn a slow carve rather than a snap
- use harness input to assist with the turn

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[CanuckInUSA 0]

The internet is not the best place to be doing such coaching. I say this not because I am trying to hold you back, but because it is better explained and demonstrated with one-on-on coaching. Let's just say a swooper has a window of opportunity as they setup their swoop. Depending upon how they arrived at their setup point (every jump is different) dictates what sort of turn and what sort of tool they pull from their tool box to get them to the ground safely swooping the deck. Of course Stu and myself speak of a "tool in a tool box" because we both learned from the same coach a few years back.

If you are serious about becoming a better canopy pilot, check your ego at the door (this is generic, it applies to all of us, I am not saying you have an ego), dedicate jumps towards canopy control and seek coaching from any of the qualified pro pilots out there. They can teach you a whole lot more than you will ever try and learn through the internet.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[DocPop 1]

Thanks for that, Canuck. I understand the whole internet coaching thing. I have paid for canopy coaching every season in addition to 'informal' coaching from a couple of swoopers at the DZ and dedicated canopy jumps.

No ego, just hoping for tips to help me improve. I am completely willing to accept it if folks don't feel comfortable to give CP tips on the internet.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Just remember there is this window of opportunity once you reach your setup point. Your location in the sky and your altitude above the deck dictates what tools to pull out of your toolbox when it comes time to initiate the swoop. The more experience you have the easier it is to recognize how well you flew to the setup point, to realize what tools you can use and what tools to keep in the toolbox on that jump.

Right now you should concentrating on flying good patterns and getting into the habit of trying to get to your setup point as consistently as possible in different weather conditions. I am not saying don't swoop (I will leave that decision up to you and your coaches/mentors). But swooping should not be your primary focus at this time. Being consistent flying your approaches, being predictable to the other canopy traffic in the sky, learning your wing, learning how to control that wing, learning how to be accurate with it. If you fly a bad approach to your setup point, you are already behind the curve when it comes to swooping.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[DocPop 1]

Cool - I understand what you mean.

Thanks for your help.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[TaylorC 0]

Still jumping the hockey helmet steve?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Still jumping the hockey helmet steve?

Of course ... it offers more protection than any skydiving helmet I have.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[JanuszPS 0]

I just wonder where Vision would be placed. I jumped it once the "same" size as my Cobalt 120 and in my opinion that canopy was smaller in size, more responsive and the recovery arc was shorter.
As a side note, is the H-mod in cobalts affecting the recovery arc or just openings and dive?
I think about modifying my sweet cob 120 just to get longer dive/recovery arc from it. It opens already long enough (900ft) that anything longer would be scary.
any advice would be appreciated.
j.

Back to Poland... back home.

[TaylorC 0]

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Still jumping the hockey helmet steve?

Of course ... it offers more protection than any skydiving helmet I have.

haha nice. still freezing your balls off in alberta? Been jumping a velo for the past season here and switching to a xaos now. loving the crossbrace these days

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Been jumping a velo for the past season here and switching to a xaos now.

Nice ... I see your jump numbers have increased a lot. I am sure you have improved greatly these last few seasons. In fact I am sure you guys have been ripping it up out there at Pitt Meadows and Abottsford. You may not be able to jump every weekend, but your chances of staying current are better than mine. But I have only myself to blame. It was cheaper for me to live in Alberta, so I moved.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ianmdrennan 2]

Take the chit chat to PM's guys.

Performance Designs Factory Team

[JohnDeere 0]

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Take the chit chat to PM's guys.

Why? I thought the forums were for "chit chating"

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[JohanW 0]

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I just wonder where Vision would be placed.

I jumped a Vision once and felt it was was the Stiletto should have been. With hindsight, that is, the design is a lot newer of course.

It had all the playfulness of the Stiletto but with a lot longer recovery arc. Feels longer than the Pilot, probably somewhere around the Safire. Can't comment on the openings really, did not jump it enough for that.

But it's a lovely canopy (in my opinion and with my frame of reference). I liked the Mamba even better, but anyone considering a Stiletto who thinks the Mamba is a step too far, I'd advise to demo a Vision.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[danielcroft 2]

Would you consider the Vision or Mamba to be intermediate canopies?

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Would you consider the Vision or Mamba to be intermediate canopies?

Vision may be, Mamba no.

I got 2 demo jumps on Vision 132 some 4 ago. I remember I use to jump Pilot150 those days. The openings were more demanding and I had to fly it actively all the time. It was quite demanding.

I started to fly my Cobalt135 a months after that demo. I was really happy with that. It felt more calm and less twitch than the Vision.

I'd rather go for a size smaller semi-elliptical than than a classic elliptical like Stiletto or Vision.

PD term like Navigator -> Navigator -> Sabre2 -> Sabre2 -> Katana -> Velocity

[danielcroft 2]

Thanks for that.

[4chewnate 0]

So what about the Pulse??

(not to anyone particular)

[JohanW 0]

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Would you consider the Vision or Mamba to be intermediate canopies?

No.

As I said, the Vision has all the playfulness of a Stiletto. This includes the openings. The Vision is a step beyond intermediate.

The Mamba is roughly in the same class as the Katana, though the recovery arc on it is probably shorter. I like the Mamba almost as much as the Katana, and better than most anything else short of something crossbraced. The Mamba is a step beyond advanced.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[danielcroft 2]

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So what about the Pulse??

(not to anyone particular)

I'd put it at about the same level as the Pilot, not sure what the more experienced people think though.

Thanks again for the info about the Mamba.

Are there canopies that we're missing out of this list?