Recovery Arcs on intermediate canopies.

[ElyJs 0]

You are right small canopy at that number of jumps may equal pain. But thats not really the point.

This forum is being destroyed by the banter you see in the 10 posts preceding this. Moderators are put in place on almost any message board worth reading so not every topic disintegrates into personal attacks and arguing. It would be nice if there could be better theoretical discussion.

If someone makes a post "Am I ready to downsize" then flame away.

Dave's comment "Fuck You" I mean come on! Tearing apart everyone's post with quotes? It just ruins the integrity of the forum, even if he does mean well.

Anyways I am going back to lurking, heres to improving the quality of posts!

[AggieDave 6]

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The way I understood the OP´s post was that he was merely seeking info on different canopies. Based on that info he may then make the right or wrong decisions.

I didnt see any "seeking for justification" or anything like that.

I know. Hence my original responses.

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I did however notice how some people attacked him merely based on his profile, without ever even seeing him fly his canopy.

That is because no one out there has "mad skillz." Swooping and advanced canopy flight is a learned skill that takes time and jump numbers. You can shorten some of the jump numbers with plenty of coaching, but at the end of the day there really is no substitute for jump numbers. I know you know this and I'm preaching to the choir.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[davelepka 4]

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I did however notice how some people attacked him merely based on his profile, without ever even seeing him fly his canopy.

Slow your roll brother, and check your facts.

I asked a fair question as to if his profile was correct, and put the focus on whoever would sell a newbie a Stiletto. His response is what set the thread off course, and his response was very telling.

It's the old concept of getting a bit too defensive that you start to make yourself look guilty.

A little research would have revealed that this is the same poster who thought it was a good idea to tech himself to be a rigger, and tried to get questions asnwered in the rigging forum. No surprise, he was met with comments stating that rigging is not a self-taught skill, and of course he replaied that he, 'had it all under control, and was doing just fine'. See the pattern forming?

I also learned that this same poster is in the process of teaching himself to BASE jump. Do I need to tell you the response he go to that over on the BASE board?

This isn't a court of law where everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty, this is an interent forum where we have seen (several times) jumpers get themselves killed by procceding contrary to the advice given. As such, I view everyone as guilty until proven innocent. Until you can show that your equipment are in line with your skills, and that your questions are in line with both of those, I'm not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt. If you have nothing to hide, come forward with your story, and there is a wealth of information to be had, some of it the posters may want to hear, and some of it they won't.

This is not a court of law, and it doesn't have to be fair. If you don't like it, don't log on. The reason that this forum exists, and that people do continue to log on is that the members have found a way to keep it honest.

It's not honest because everyone is all warm and fuzzy, it's honest because we're realistic and straightforward. Skydiving and canopy piloting is a high risk activity where good intentions and kind words don't mean squat. Realisitc and straightforward words are of real value here, and that's what I'll provide.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Dave, no PA's - your one warning.

Performance Designs Factory Team

[ianmdrennan 2]

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In fact this entire forum is ruined by posters that interrogate everyone and therefore prevent most valid discussion about any flight characteristics. Usually moderators prevent forums from heading down this path. Sadly do dz.com the moderators are participating instead of helping this issue. Too bad really.

Sorry you feel that way.

I happen to think the points raised were valid in the context of the whole picture.

The reality is that this is the way this forum is run. You are more than welcome to frequent another forum that you find the moderation to your taste though.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Halfpastniner 0]

For the record, the only reason I read dropzone.com anymore is to see what Dave is ranting about.

Lepka you need a twitter, I bet you could really get a following!!

BASE 1384

[danielcroft 2]

I'm just glad we're off topic again, it was annoying when people were actually discussing the subject of this thread.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I'm just glad we're off topic again, it was annoying when people were actually discussing the subject of this thread.

Trying to get back on topic:
Originally classified by AggieDave (I modified the Katana classification)

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Short:
Stiletto
Nitro

Slightly longer:
Cobalt
Pilot

Medium:
Cobalt
Sabre2
Safire2

Long:
XFire2

Even Longer (almost cross-braced):
Katana

However in an attempt to derail the thread ... again ...

I may be selling my JVX 87 soon if I decide I am not current enough to be flying such a high performance beast anymore. But if people have more than 100 jumps do not bother asking me about it. I will only sell this canopy to total newbies who think swooping is cool and think they are special and can swoop right out of the box ...














Just kidding ... only qualified canopy pilots need inquire.
If I already know them I won't grill them on their qualifications.
But if I don't know them I will ask for references.

Under this 87 you do not even need to pull down on your front risers.
Simply lean into the harness and the canopy dives "balls to the walls" at the earth.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[DocPop 1]

Now you have reclassified the Katana as "almost cross-braced", it makes me wonder if it really is the next logical progression after a Sabre2, as I have heard/read elsewhere.

Would it be better for someone to put in an extra step in their canopy progression to include, say, a Crossfire2 between the Sabre2 and Katana?

I guess in short I am saying is there too much of a gap in performance between a Sabre2 and a Katana for the change to be made without an intermediate step?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[humanflite 0]

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Now you have reclassified the Katana as "almost cross-braced", it makes me wonder if it really is the next logical progression after a Sabre2, as I have heard/read elsewhere.

Would it be better for someone to put in an extra step in their canopy progression to include, say, a Crossfire2 between the Sabre2 and Katana?

I guess in short I am saying is there too much of a gap in performance between a Sabre2 and a Katana for the change to be made without an intermediate step?

I would think ideally this is definately true.
I have a xfire 2 109 and a Katana 120 I borrowed dives harder for certain. I also have a similar sized sabre2 and it is milder again than the xfire2.

Katanas are ground hungry very high perfornance canopies and as you have said, should only be progressed to when adequate experience is possessed

[JohanW 0]

But, in my ever unhumble opinion, you don't need to build that experience on any particular canopy.

In my, personal, experience, it is quite possible to fly Stilettos for a thousand jumps and switch in relative safety to a Katana. You have something new to learn, definitely, but it's not a recipe for disaster either.

But there can be no cutting corners - you will need that experience, and you will need to learn those new tricks.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

When you look at the title of this thread is says "Recovery Arcs on intermediate canopies". But many people (myself included) would not consider a Crossfire2 and for sure a Katana as intermediate canopies.

I came up through the Sabre2, Crossfire2, Velocity and then JVX ranks. Personally I think the Sabre2 is an awesome canopy for the aspiring intermediate canopy pilot to be learning on. But they should likely keep their turns at 180 or less. The recovery arc is too low to be doing 270s for someone still learning to swoop. Once someone is accomplished doing 180s on something like a Sabre2, the next reasonable canopy to progress to would be something like a Crossfire2 starting slow on it and ultimately progressing to doing 270s. There is nothing saying someone can not skip the Crossfire2 and jump to something like a Katana. A properly mentored/coached canopy pilot who dedicates jumps towards canopy control can progress much faster than the traditional canopy nazis feel that they can progress. But the Katana is high performance (almost cross braced like) and should not be considered a canopy for intermediate canopy pilots.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[DebaucheroRdrgz 0]

Tell me Dave what response did I get? I've been base jumping for about a year and have a lot of very experienced and qualified mentors. I didn't teach myself that and I'm not teaching myself rigging or swooping. Shut your fucking mouth since you don't know what the fuck your talking about and quit trying to stalk me.

[JohanW 0]

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Tell me Dave what response did I get? I've been base jumping for about a year and have a lot of very experienced and qualified mentors. I didn't teach myself that and I'm not teaching myself rigging or swooping. Shut your fucking mouth since you don't know what the fuck your talking about and quit trying to stalk me.

I thought you had been banned already, you were much too quiet. This should do though.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[danielcroft 2]

The minimum recommended loading for the XF2 is 1.4 due (I'm told) to the partially closed nose, that kind of puts it in the more advanced intermediate anyway doesn't it?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I thought you had been banned already, you were much too quiet. This should do though.

I am not a moderator, but I am going to try and pretend to be one for this post.

Let's stay on topic and the topic is "Recovery Arcs on intermediate canopies". I have no problem with newer jumpers aspiring to be high performance canopy pilots. The newer jumpers just need to realize that there are no short cuts to swooping and even though some folks here may occasionally come off as canopy nazis, they know something newer jumpers do not know. I have had my close calls + at least one of my friends is dead thanks to a swoop gone wrong.

One must dedicate jumps towards canopy control, one must learn the performance characteristics of the canopy before one jumps it. And most importantly, one must realize that they are not special and that complacency kills.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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The minimum recommended loading for the XF2 is 1.4 due (I'm told) to the partially closed nose, that kind of puts it in the more advanced intermediate anyway doesn't it?

IMHO ... the Crossfire2 is a canopy one transitions to once they are accomplished as intermediate canopy pilots and wanting to explore more advance canopy flying techniques. If memory serves me correct the wing loading should be in the 1.4 to 1.6 range. There was a fellow loading it higher a fews years back and without a doubt an advanced canopy pilot could likely handle the higher loading. But not too high. Use the right tool for the right job.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[buff 0]

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It would be nice if there could be better theoretical discussion

Support Brian Germain and buy his book. It has all the theory you need right there and you can read it every bad weather day.

I went to a canopy course at a big DZ toting a ST150; Sabre 170 to the Stilletto at ~220 jumps. Landed it fine 6X at my little home DZ. Got to the canopy course and it spun up hard and fast on me and I got something just shy of the a Lepka speech from the course director. So he probably 1. Saved my life by getting me off of it then or 2. Saved me a lot of greif in my progression and money in repacks that day.

It's rare that you see anybody come into this forum with low jump numbers, I consider mine low, and ask how to make a flat turn or a flare turn, or say, "I want to be able to make a down winder but I'm scared, what is different?" It's all "I have sillz" or I have 100 jumps and found a great deal on a JVX.

Yea I'd love to be able to swoop like Stu or Ian or AggieDave but you have to put in the time. I hear about Methods but I don't know what that means and don't care right now because I'm still working up to a 270. When the time comes, I find out what the theory of Methods is and go from there. That's pretty much how it works. YMMV

------------------

Now for my question...
Why two different categories for the Cobalt? I put two jumps on mine when I got it and then sent it for reline and got 3 jumps after I got it back and now I'm out for a while with a broken fib. I just have not had much time on it at all but it did seem that it was trimmed a little steeper after reline. Is the difference here in the regular CO and the Comp?

It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama

[AggieDave 6]

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Now you have reclassified the Katana as "almost cross-braced", it makes me wonder if it really is the next logical progression after a Sabre2, as I have heard/read elsewhere.

PD may release something some day that goes between the Sabre2 and the Katana, but as it stands I still believe that this is a good progression on the "PD track."

That is IF you work up to the Katana the right way and don't move over to the KA too soon. Personally my belief is that a jumper should stay on the Sabre2 platform until they're getting to the 1.7:1 range and are able to complete a 180 or better for landing with accuracy in altitude and position. Consistently, not just "hey, check that one out."

That is a good time to transition to the same sized KA at the same wingloading. Then move on from there until that jumper is going to be loading 2.0 or better. Then it is a good time to transition to the Velo.

Those transitions are done in 100's of jumps, not 10's of jumps. Using the typically approved wingloading to jump ratio that puts a jumper on a KA around 700 jumps then on to a Velo at around 1000 jumps.


I wish I could have/would have completed that progression when I had started out! I know that I would have been a better swooper sooner and with a better learning curve!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I have 100 jumps and found a great deal on a JVX.

Sorry your jump numbers are too high to buy my JVX.

Seriously ... I agree support Brian Germaine, buy his book and learn the material.

Then once someone has read the book and understood the material and are serious about progressing with their flying skills ... seeking coaching from any of the qualified pro pilots who are out there. It is amazing what one can learn from talking to the pros "one on one". I know when I did my first high performance coaching while flying a Crossfire2 I was pushed up 200 feet from my initial setup altitude. It was not easy at first being pushed up so high (the riser pressure on the Crossfire does build up pretty high), but it was absolutely the right thing to do. I did not know it at the time, but I was living in a moderate corner as an intermediate swooper and none of the locals knew enough about high performance competition swooping to correct me in those early days.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[DocPop 1]

Thanks Dave - that answers my question perfectly.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[JohanW 0]

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The minimum recommended loading for the XF2 is 1.4 due (I'm told) to the partially closed nose, that kind of puts it in the more advanced intermediate anyway doesn't it?

IMHO ... the Crossfire2 is a canopy one transitions to once they are accomplished as intermediate canopy pilots and wanting to explore more advance canopy flying techniques. If memory serves me correct the wing loading should be in the 1.4 to 1.6 range. There was a fellow loading it higher a fews years back and without a doubt an advanced canopy pilot could likely handle the higher loading. But not too high. Use the right tool for the right job.

http://www.nzaerosports.com/icarusCrossfire.php: We recommend wing loadings from 1.4psf to 2.1psf

http://www.nzaerosports.com/choosingACanopy.php (click on Wing Loadings):

Class 5 - Extreme 1.65 to 2.00 Lbs/SqFt

Not for the faint hearted. If you are one of the few people that want to fly a class 5 canopy consider every aspect of what you are doing very carefully. On the up side there is very exhilarating airspeed, quick response times and powerful maneuverability. On the down side our margin for error has reduced to almost nothing (!), compounded by the fact that if we do make an error we are almost certainly traveling at speeds that can maim. If you have or are considering a class 5 canopy we can't tell you how to fly it in this overview, we must assume you know what you are doing.

Most people I watch flying class 5 canopies don't fly them to the limits of the canopy and the performance they achieve from their canopy could be achieved from a class 4 canopy flown to its limits with a far greater safety margin. These canopies generally have to be run out on landing. They must be fitted with a collapsible pilot chute. Lowering and collapsing the slider and loosening the chest strap is recommended. Canopy recovery arcs can be over 400 Ft radius. The step from a class 4 canopy to a class 5 canopy can be quite large i.e. for a 80 kg jumper with gear and weights the difference between a 105 and a 95 feels similar to the difference between a 130 and a 105.

Class 6 - BALLISTIC 2.0 to 2.4 Lbs/SqFt

If you are considering this, you don't need an explanation.

I wouldn't class a Crossfire2 as advanced intermediate, and neither would the manufacturer, if I read the above correctly. The least they would classify it as would be the upper half of high performance.

If you want to fly a Crossfire2, you want to be not just a high performance canopy pilot, you want to be an extreme performance canopy pilot. You are taking your life in your own hands, and you can break yourself significantly on the slightest error. Accomplished intermediate canopy pilot my rear end. You're jumping a powerhouse and you had better have the skills to match. Fortunately, it's quite possible to build those skills.

Put in your jumps, put in your time, learn humility, and take no shortcuts.

(Canuck, no offence intended. Your 1.6 jumped at me, I thought it was 1.9, and then I started reading. I remembered those lovely quotes and simply could not resist reproducing them. And then I got carried away ranting again ..

Johan.
I am. I think.

[danielcroft 2]

The XF2 is rated for 1.4 and up which means it's in the "Class 4 - High performance 1.25 to 1.65 Lbs/SqFt" category.

Thanks for the informative posts everyone.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Canuck, no offence intended. Your 1.6 jumped at me, I thought it was 1.9, and then I started reading.

I guess my memory is not as good as I hoped it would be. Personally I would choose a different tool if my wingloading was approaching 2.0 or higher. I still stand by my original words that say Crossfire2 is a good canopy to transition in order to learn advanced canopy flying techniques once someone has proved themselves as an intermediate. Plus it is possible for someone (assuming they are mature and have some mentoring/coaching) to skip the Crossfire2 and jump into something like a Katana. But neither one of these canopies should be considered intermediate canopies.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[JohanW 0]

Actually, Icarus rate wingloads, not canopies. There is a significant difference between a Safire2 loaded 1.5 and a Crossfire2 loaded 1.5.

And even if you're jumping a Crossfire loaded 1.4, you want to be ahead of your canopy at all times. Would you drive a Ferrari as an intermediate driver when a gust of wind could put the pedal to the metal for you? Canopies don't have brakes like cars do, you cannot let go of the gas pedal, you can only apply so much brakes, the more you brake the less you can steer (and flare!), and you may have to correct for wind, obstacles, turbulence, dogs, kids or other people's manoeuvres.

So even if jumping a Crossfire2 at "just" a High Performance wingload (even more so than when flying a Safire2 at a High Performance wingload), you want to be a High Performance canopy pilot with a little extra. Call it an Extreme Performance canopy pilot. That's what I meant.

Johan.
I am. I think.