Just starting to "swoop"...advice?

[Kynan1 0]

I'm starting with front riser 90's in from about 200ft.
My wingloading is a 1.2 and I have 400 jumps.
What is the safest way to approach swooping and what are the most common mistakes made when starting out?
Thanks in advance.

[AggieDave 6]

The biggest mistake is to ignore the fundamentals and get right to wanting to learn how to rip a front riser down and dive at the ground. That's neat and all, but a poorly trained monkey can look at an altimeter and pull a riser at the right altitude.

So what is there to learn? Patterns and accuracy. You have to have to have to be good at flying a landing pattern. Without that you'll never have any accuracy. Without either you will never be able to swoop safely.

Whens the last time you took an aerial photo and actually drew your landing pattern then flew it? How acurate was it? That's what swoops do in their mind and out there walking the course before a swoop.

So go back to the basics and learn those two things. You will become a much better swooper, a much safer swooper and get there faster by doing those things.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Kynan1 0]

Good idea. Accuracy is pretty important.So once you have the pattern down and consistently hit your target, how should you approach your 90 front riser turns in?

[AggieDave 6]

Spend a good number of altitude clear and pulls working on a smooth pull and release of the riser as well as dialing in the altitude. The trick is to give as little input as possible to come out of the dive according to your canopy design.

Understand that normal skydiving isn't where swooping belongs. Swooping belongs on hop-n-pops and altitude clear and pulls where you're alone or near alone in the landing area. Start that practice now, you can do hop-n-pops cheaper and more often, get more canopy time and focus on your canopy control without the safety concerns the traffic of a normal altitude skydive.

There are volumes written about types of turns, aerodynamics, etc. I'm not going to rehash all of that information. Its out there and easy to get. I'll tell you to work on your pattern, accuracy and get coaching. Even if its just your buddy video taping your landing. It'll help you more then having nothing.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[bob.dino 0]

There's a lot of very good information on technique Brian Germain's book The Parachute And Its Pilot.

[Pendragon 1]

I'd actually start with 45s. The effect is subtle, but you still get a nice increase in speed. Progress to 90s when you are confident with those and do a whole bunch of those before moving to 135s (which incidentally, I would do by performing a standard approach but, on the base leg, turn away 45 degrees on the front riser and, just after that has finished diving, perform the 135 back to your landing direction).

AggieDave is right - you need to build consistency in your inputs. Slower inputs generate more speed and buy you more time (as you initiate from a higher altitude) than snappier inputs.

We've got a progression system here in the UK - we need a "licence" in order to swoop unsupervised. The BPA produced a short manual which might be of use:

http://www.bpa.org.uk/safetydocs/cpmanual.pdf

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[980 0]

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Understand that normal skydiving isn't where swooping belongs.

I take offense at that statement.

[CrazyL 0]

I'm with you, swooping, excuse me, hookturn is something I do on every jump unless I need to abort, which does happen, but very seldom. Having clear airspace (keen spacial awareness) and flaring in time are 2 key factors for great hookturns and swoops. Like aggiedave has said in his post about pulling high and hop and pops( to be in the air alone) is definately a great way to become proficient at performing such maneuvers without other air traffic to be concerned about other than airplanes. I am proficient on certain canopies. I still pull high to learn a new wing prior to playing in air traffic.

[dayle 0]

In order to swoop, start with the basics and start high. I really recomend some sort of canopy control course. Brian's book is an amazing resource that backs up his course but if you can't make it to the course its still worth while reading.

Barring that, if you start high, practice your 90's. Look at your alti and see how much altitude you are losing. Do the same with 180's and 270's. Learn the differences as you shift your weight. Do all these things at altitude. (high hop and pops)

When you learn the altitudes, start coming straight in on double fronts. Than move up the degree of turn.

I don't think you should worry so much about your accuracy at this point. Concentrate on your Initialization point. For ex, for a 90 front riser, say you figured out you want to start from 200 feet. Do your standard left pattern, leave lots of space on your final leg and when you hit 200 (and have clear space below you) do the riser turn.

Always remember to leave yourself an out, you can always stop the turn and stop the dive.

Most of all, hopefully you are at a DZ where there are competent swoopers who can guide you. Listen to them.

I cannot stress enough the importance of taking proper instruction. Go see Brian Germain, or Scott Miller. Your body will thank you for it.

You will f*&% up while swooping, the information you get from the course can mean the difference between a bruise/sprain and the hospital/morgue.

I know Brian's course has saved my ass on more than one occasion.

good luck

[Pendragon 1]

I'm with 980 on this one... although I think AggieDave has a point when it comes to training / doing new stuff.

If I'm downsizing / moving from a 270 to 450 etc etc then I'll be doing that on a skydive dedicated to that purpose. Too much to concentrate on otherwise. If it's just a swoop of a rotation I've dialed in on a canopy I regualarly jump, then of course I'll swoop at the end of a skydive (like most others!)

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[djd 0]

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What is the safest way to approach swooping and what are the most common mistakes made when starting out?.

Real easy to ans this..... Get professional coaching they will tell what to do and more importantly what NOT to do.... and i still say the biggest lesson you will learn is not being afraid when to say NO no matter what..even if there are loads of hot chicks just about to see you land off. better than them watching you being loaded onto an ambulance...lol...

soft landings.............

[klafollette 0]

after 750 jumps, I'm just starting to play around my front risers and higher-speed approaches. I just spent the weekend at Brian Germain's canopy course. What I learned was how much I know I don't know, and even more, how much I don't know I don't know.

One of Brian's fundamental points what to learn exactly how much altitude it takes for your canopy to naturally recover from a high-speed approach; either a 90, 180, or 270. And that you can't accurately do that with a wrist mounted mechanical altimeter, or by trusting your eyes. Highly recommends a Neptune or an L&B Optima with audible landing guide tones. #1 to help you get consistent with your approach method, altitude loss and recovery arc, practicing up high, and with the Optima, giving you audible cues when doing the actual landing. Recommened setting up 3 check-points on the approach, each 300 feet above the last, the 3rd being the final turn.

Big point was practicing (up high) methods to adjust mid-turn when you're either too high, and more importantly, how to dig yourself out if you're too low. Practicing the approach turn, then immediately dropping the fronts and stabbing the toggles, and getting the canopy over your head smoothly.

Learn to fly with all 8 controls you have; 2 toggles, 4 risers, and 2 hips (harness); and what they all do. Fly high along-side a second person (at a safe distance) , with them being the "base" reference and try different inputs and see how your altitude and speed change from normal flight; front's rears, toggles,

Map out exactly what your approach will be like, where you'll be at each approach point, at what altitude, and willing to call it off when you don't set it up exactly the way you had planned.

Oh, make sure you're loosening your chest strap, pulling down the slider behind your head, and that your brake lines are long enough so that pulling the front risers aren't causing you to pull down on the tail at the same time.

There's more than my brain could absorb in his course, would also recommend the his Canopy Pilot book.

[Fast 0]

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I'm starting with front riser 90's in from about 200ft.
My wingloading is a 1.2 and I have 400 jumps.
What is the safest way to approach swooping and what are the most common mistakes made when starting out?
Thanks in advance.

Do your best to practice and learn new things in a safe environment. Learning to swoop and doing it in traffic can cause some serious problems.

Don't drop your toggles. Make sure you practice letting go of the fronts w/o droping the toggles. Practice different techniques for doing the turns, there are quite a few ways to make a 90degree turn. See which one works the best for you and your canopy.

Make sure you have outs, know what they are and when to take them. I have made my share of mistakes when swooping as I am sure most have. The only ones that I stood up and felt lucky after were the ones I didn't leave outs and somehow didn't get hurt. I should have not put myself in that kind of situation to begin with, but it happens.

I like using my alti to set up my pattern but I learned to turn by sight. I think there is too much to be watching on final to be looking at your alti. For that reason, I use it to set up my pattern and that is about it. I think when you are starting out with double fronts and 45s or 90s that it wont help as much. You need to learn what it looks like when you are coming in high/low/right on. If you can't just see it, when your alti fails you will have problems. Also, with the lower rotation turns on a lightly loaded canopy you are still close enough to the ground to have a bit more depth perception.

I think it helps to jump consistantly at one dz when you are learning too. I know most people do that, but there are some people who like to travel around a lot. Being at one dz where you can be familiar with the landing area and people around will help a lot when you are first learning.

Brian Germain and some of the others out there doing canopy courses and swoop coaching have a wealth of information to offer so hit up a course if you can. Most people don't get that opertunity right away though so I suggest finding a local mentor. Someone who can watch your progress from week to week. I say week to week to point out that I think currency is major requirement of learning to swoop. I don't just mean what USPA wants either. If you are going to take on swooping I think you should be someone who is making multiple skydives every week/weekend. In my opinion it is one of the most dangrous things you can do while skydiving.

One of the other posters made a point that he learned that he didn't even know what/how much he didn't know yet. That is a fairly important concept to wrap your head around. It means more than what the words say. If you get overly confident in what you are doing the bear might just bite you in the ass before you can get away.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Ozzie 0]

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There's a lot of very good information on technique Brian Germain's book The Parachute And Its Pilot.

I just ordered mine, thanks for the input. I did not know this book existed previously.

Motion = Emotion

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I'm starting with front riser 90's in from about 200ft.
My wingloading is a 1.2 and I have 400 jumps.
What is the safest way to approach swooping and what are the most common mistakes made when starting out?
Thanks in advance.

1. Get training

2. You can still get substantial speed from a 90 degree turn; easing into it would be safer.

3. Learn stop your vertical descent immediately and then deal with stopping the turn. Eventually you will turn low and knowing what to do about it will save you.

4. Learn how to do carving turns at ground level so you aren't an unguided meat missle just waiting to crash when some one or something gets in the way.

[CrazyL 0]

Unlike the 'old days' there is a way to progress at swooping ( landing faster). There are some top notch canopy pilots who do train skydivers to be proficient at canopy piloting. It would be a good investment (safer approach) for you to attend a class/ course given by one or more of these fellas. Common mistakes when starting out to become a high performance canopy pilot: turning too low and not flaring in time and or not having the room to flare in time (resulting in serious injury or death due to hitting the ground too hard). Lack of good 'ol education is another common mistake(for some, ego rules the roost getting in the way of education). Another mistake is 'going too fast too soon'. I learned the art of hookturns (degrees of turn to gain speed close to the ground)under a 220 at less than .8 wingloading and progressed from there. An approach that I took back in the day consisted of flying the dz pattern consistently which to turn on final requires a 90 degree turn. My final 90 began high and progressively became lower till I had a little bit of speed on landing. Next part was do final 90 a bit too high then do 'double front risers' to gain speed for landing. Then I got hooked on downwinders( which I do not suggest). So I basically learned one element to gain speed at at time, 90's is one element or 'trick' I like to call it, double front risers is another trick. To fly the pattern I can do either trick or combine the 2 tricks to gain speed. Each trick has a certain height at which I begin and end. Each trick added to results in beginning higher. This very basic. let's use arbitrary #'s, let's say the 90 trick you do at 200ft then lets also do the double fronts trick in series. Let's say to do double fronts trick by itself (as if you were on final from 1,000 ft) you'd begin double fronts at 200ft. to then have a bit of speed upon letting up on the fronts and going into the flare sequence. Bump the final for the 90 up to 400ft and do double fronts from 200ft. This would be a series of 2 tricks to gain speed. I have over 6,000 landings in which i've gained excess speed. Instead of combining 2 tricks for speed I may have between 20-30 tricks combined to gain speed for one landing. I use double fronts at 2 different points during the the gaining speed portion of the swoop sometimes in 3 places. Learn each trick well prior to moving on and building up more tricks for the series, start higher than you think you should. Hop and pop up high and practice tricks prior to bringing the tricks in for landing. Flare before impact.

[agent_lead 0]

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I'd actually start with 45s. The effect is subtle, but you still get a nice increase in speed. Progress to 90s when you are confident with those and do a whole bunch of those before moving to 135s (which incidentally, I would do by performing a standard approach but, on the base leg, turn away 45 degrees on the front riser and, just after that has finished diving, perform the 135 back to your landing direction).

AggieDave is right - you need to build consistency in your inputs. Slower inputs generate more speed and buy you more time (as you initiate from a higher altitude) than snappier inputs.

We've got a progression system here in the UK - we need a "licence" in order to swoop unsupervised. The BPA produced a short manual which might be of use:

http://www.bpa.org.uk/safetydocs/cpmanual.pdf

thanks that was an excellent read...i wonder why we havnt adopted a system like this for the uspa?

seems like it could help alot of canopy pilots who are just starting to get into HP landings

--------------------------------------------
www.facebook.com/agentlead

[skyshimas 0]

go big or go home :)
being serious: it is dangerous especialy on those lighter W/L's where you have to start low in order to get that swoop and not end up way up there yes, there are some techniques that help but big canopy is a big canopy and it is hard to keep it in a dive for a long time.Low turn=less time to react=more risk. I am not suggesting to dowsize just maybe do not play with BIG turns on lightly loaded wings. I also think it gives bad habits which are quite hard to get rid of in the future.
also what I heard by taking courses is that 180 is a one dangerous turn and probably the hardest one to be concistent with. 270 is safer for that matter. of course nobody is talking loud yet that you should do 270's after 90's. I guess 180 is something you have to learn but be extremely careful. Just some thoughts and observations hope didn't insult any swoop gods out there ;) oh and get couching it helps A LOT gives you good guidlines what to work on and be safer if safety exist in this sport at all :)

[wetswooper 0]

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....I just spent the weekend at Brian Germain's canopy course. What I learned was how much I know I don't know, and even more, how much I don't know I don't know.

That's maybe the best sentence I've heard from a person at an early stage of his swoop career.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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180 is a one dangerous turn and probably the hardest one to be concistent with. 270 is safer for that matter.

Not necessarily accurate. From a purely turn/progression perspective 180's are a natural progression and 'safer' than a 270. However, as patterns and accuracy are factored in, they are a more complicated setup.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[phoenixlpr 0]

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go big or go home :)
being serious: it is dangerous especialy on those lighter W/L's where you have to start low in order to get that swoop and not end up way up there yes,

Ok. Now define light.

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Low turn=less time to react=more risk

??? You might turn lower because of fast recovery of your canopy. Anyway you are lower under a slower wing. what is the connection?

[skyshimas 0]

define light? what do you want me to define? Sorry my English is not the best ;)

Are you trying to say that being lower under slower wing will give you as much time as being higher under faster wing? I would have to disagree with you. You can finish the turn still being high and just keep on diving seeing everything and having time to react on smaller wing. While on the larger wing initiation point is lower and time to react is shorter. One reason shorter recovery arch another risers build weight too fast and you can not keep it in a dive for a long time.

Don't beat me to death i don't know what I don't know just sharing my thoughts.

BTW thats why 180 is dangerous since it is hard to set up for it. You landing away from where you flying, wind on your back etc.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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define light? what do you want me to define? Sorry my English is not the best ;)

You just don't want to understand. What would you call light WL?

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You can finish the turn still being high and just keep on diving seeing everything and having time to react on smaller wing. While on the larger wing initiation point is lower and time to react is shorter. One reason shorter recovery arch another risers build weight too fast and you can not keep it in a dive for a long time.

I agree. If you have short recovery you do not have to luxury just hang on the keep it in dive. It does not mean those can not be swooped or can not be swooped safely. If you find yourself in the corner you can get you wing faster back over your head if it wants to recover by itself anyway.

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BTW thats why 180 is dangerous since it is hard to set up for it.

Its only different. You might have learnt setting up a 90 degrees from a holding crab. For doing a 180 you most likely have to set up from a running crab.

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You landing away from where you flying

Sounds like an oximorron...

[skyshimas 0]

Ok dude i see you know everythink. i am out of this ciao!

[SPAWNmaster 0]

what is meant by "dialing in gears" ?