When did you go X-brace?

[Peej 0]

I had the opportunity to jump a 120 Velo this past weekend and i have to say it was possibly one of the most awe inspiring experiences of my short skydiving career.

Lately over here we've seen one or two guys with 800 or 900 very current jumps transition to Xaos 118's, etc. I feel i'm not ready to jump a x-brace full time yet (i plan on doing at least a few hundred more jumps on my existing canopy before thinking about changing) but i was wondering when you guys made that initial transition and what canopy and wl you came from and went to. Eg: Crossfire 2 loaded @1.9 to a VX loaded to 2.2.

Also, what were your criteria/ reasons for moving? Wanted more distance in the swoop? Felt that your Elliptical just wasn't cutting it at that loading? And if you feel that you went there too early in your swoop career, what would you say that you think is the correct progression/ time to transition?

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[yardhippie 0]

Im afraid this thread will turn into whats right/wrong debate, but hell, its the am, I'll bite.

I stared demoing new canopies for my last change at about 750 jumps. I had been on a Nitro 120 loaded at 1.8 for about 3 years and 600 or so jumps (yea I know, and I have stories to tell). Anyways.
After my last bad choice, I went seeking some help from our local swoop crew. I had many of them watch my landings, talk to me about my goals, and how the next year was going to progress for me. I was not so sure when I had a couple of them suggest a Velo, but these are guys that have seen me swoop over the past two years and helped me along the way. I settled on the 103 loaded at 2.1, and now have about 100 jumps, and one nasty violent spinner on that sized Velo.

Im very happy with my decision. The Velo is an amazing wing. It presents me with a list of new challenges, and lot more to learn. So I continue to take it slow, listen to those that helped me with the decision. Although, one of those guys is a bit gimpy now!

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[rhys 0]

Hi Peej,

I transitioned from a crossfire 109 to an FX89. I had about 800 jumps on the crossfire over a year and a half. the FX was not too much different considering the size difference but still a considerable step. I only put about 100 jumps on the FX and then transitioned to a JVX 84. the difference between the JVX and the FX is quite immense even though the size difference is comparatively smaller.

So in saying all this I would think an FX or Velo 7 cell xbrace is the best stepping stone from a regular 9 cell. 9 cell cross braced VX's and JVX's etc. are another level again due to the much higher aspect ratio.


have fun, be safe.

Rhys

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I am assuming you are talking about "modern age" here, Peej, or I would tell you that I switched from a Bogy 150 to an Excallibur 150 in 1989 (or whatever year it was the Excal came out). Those were VERY small canopies back in those days, brother.

Much later, 1999 I guess, I was jumping two Stillettos (107 and 97) and decided I just had to have a "new school" crossbrace. Actually, I was not really too sure about it, because Jim Slaton and Joey Costa were winning meets under Alphas. I ordered an Alpha 84 and a VX-74. The VX was brand new and JC was the only guy killing it with any regularity under it. I bought those two canopies because I wanted a longer-diving main that was going to give me more distance. The VX opened like shit, but I could get my longest swoops out of it maybe 25 percent of the time. I had to do a perfect turn on it to beat my "normal" 270 turn under the Alpha, so I sold the VX to Troy Ketsdever and I think he still has it (for windy days). I jumped those Alpha/Impulse/Cobalt canopies alongside my teammates Eric Butts and Bryan Harrel very successfully in pro competition for a few years. Eventually, I decided that I just needed another new crossbrace, regardless of opening characteristics, if I wanted to stay competitive. Amazingly, I found that the two new Velos I got in 2003 opened just fine and they were easy to dial in. Wonderful stuff!

Given the right amount of concentration and respect, there is simply no beating a crossbraced main. They plow through turbulence, have tons of usable lift, and get you down to the ground fast when you are doing "work" dives (AFF, tandem video). They are also tremendously fun to swoop. That said, they are not right for every job. I will never again put another crossbraced main in my wingsuit rig and I would not consider jumping one on a "classic" demo into a tight area.

Chuck

[Tonto 1]

Hey Peej,

Something else to consider is that you jump at a hot and very high DZ. That makes a huge difference. In answer to your question, my second move to crossbrace is this year. The 1st one, like Chuck, was in the late 80's.

Blue Skies,

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[pr0ject42 0]

I went from a Samurai 105 to a Velocity 96. I put about 300ish jumps on the Sam 105 (3 different ones). I really liked the glide, the dive and the deep flare of the Sam, but openings for me were inconsistent on the 105 (not my experience with the 136 and the 120 Sam). Sometimes they would be brisk, but ok, other times the slider would break the sound barrier coming down. I can only blame my own body position on deployment so much.

So, moving into a new season, and after an accidental (really it was) ride on a Velocity 79, I decided that it would be worth the try to get a 96. I put about 40 jumps on it before selling any of my Sams, but I had already bought a backup 96 before I had sold the Sams.

The comparison for me was that the Velocity had just that little bit extra on the bottom end of the flare if I didn't get to build up much speed for my landing, where the Sam seemed to fizzle out and give me a more F-111 feel on the flare. I know I didn't explain that bit well. Regardless, the openings, while the seeking thing was a new adventure, were much better on the body. I found I could get this thing to glide and dive much more effectively than the Sams, but at the higher wingloading (2.1ish) the Velo falls out of the sky much more quickly. I thought the front riser pressure was nice and the buildup was much more handleable.

So I made that switch at 900ish jumps, I've put about 150 jumps on my Velocities and while I respect this canopy and what it can do to me, I also love what it does for me.

This message was not paid for by PD.

Also let me add that I think the Samurai was an excellent canopy to build up good discipline in canopy control before going to the Velocity. Long dives, deep flares and good glide characteristics really helped me make the step into the crossbraced world without too much irrational fear. Keep in mind I just enjoy flying and landing my canopies, I don't have competitive swooping goals and my primary function is to get to the ground safely first and secondarily, if an option, get a nice swoop.

[superstu 0]

This is all approximated and knowing what i know now i would have stayed on some of these canopies longer:

1-15 jumps: skymaster 290
15-30 jumps: skymaster 220
30-45 jumps: triathlon 175
45-72 jumps: PD 190
72-130 jumps: triathlon 160 (first owned canopy)
130-437 jumps: stiletto 150/135 (started high performance experimentation at 150 jumps)
437-587 jumps: impulse 120/104 and crossfire1 109
587-750 jumps: crossfire1 97
750-775 jumps: velocity 96
775-800 jumps: VX 89
800-1400 jumps: VX 84
1400-1700 jumps: VX 84 with 17#'s of lead
1700-2100: JVX 87
2100- present: Velocity 90

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[piisfish 136]

by curiosity, what is your approx Wingloading on this period :

Quote

587-750 jumps: crossfire1 97
750-775 jumps: velocity 96
775-800 jumps: VX 89
800-1400 jumps: VX 84
1400-1700 jumps: VX 84 with 17#'s of lead
1700-2100: JVX 87
2100- present: Velocity 90

gently upsizing ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[marks 0]

from the 87 to the 90. that is most likely a downsize.

[robap26 0]

I started jumping a Vengence 120 loaded at about 1.8 at about the 550 jump range. I got an FX 120 within a 100 jumps. Since it was the same size I didn't really see it as too much of a step. In fact, I didn't like the FX. I felt like it was sluggish compared to my Vengence. And it opened terribly. I had those two canopies for the next 1000 jumps. I jumped the FX only when I had to. It was my back up and I didn't like to use it.
At about 1500 jumps I got a Velo 103. I consider that my first true high performance canopy. loading was 2.0. I spent the next 1200 jumps with a pair of 103s before going down to my current 96 Velo. My current wing loading is 2.3 (I have gained a little weight). I have a 90 on order and I believe that will be my last down size. (although I said that about the 103 and the 96). I expect to follow this swooping thing for a few more years and then I will probably start up-sizing.

[superstu 0]

1.8-2.4+, with a high of 3.0 on a vx 69 a while back

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[vdschoor 0]

I did my beer X braced jump at about 1600 jumps.

Triathlon 190 400jumps
Sabre2 150 600 jumps
Stiletto 135 50 jumps
Sabre2 135 550 jumps
Velocity 120 1 jump
Velocity 111 5 jumps
Velocity 103 400 jumps

All I have to say is have respect for what you are flying, the xbraced canopies are not just another canopy, and are definately not for people that are doing less than 300 jumps a year in my opinion.. You need to be on top of your game at ALL times..

[dharma1976 0]

850ish FX 99 after about 400 jumps on crossfire 2's

I have a handful of jumps on it, as the Crossfire is my main canopy still.

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

from the 87 to the 90. that is most likely a downsize.

It is POSITIVELY a downsize from all the actual canopy-on-top-of-canopy comparisons I have witnessed lately.

[Canuck 0]

I went from a Crossfire 119 to a Velo 96 when I had just over 1000 jumps. My last season on the Crossfire, I had done about 250 jumps, and hit the gates that we had set up in our landing area on about 240 of them, throwing a consistent 270. By the end of the season, my swoops no longer felt fast and thrilling. I felt current, and like I had really learned to fly the Crossfire well, so I did some research and bought my first Velo. I've got over 1000 jumps on 96s now, and have no desire to downsize again. I might put those skinny lines on though...

Canuck

[Peej 0]

Thanks for the info guys, there are some interesting answers there and a lot of stuff for me to think about. Currenty i feel that while the Velo was fun to fly and i treated her with respect, i'm not ready to go x-brace yet, purely because i'm only now really starting to get my set-up and swoops consistently on the deck. And even then i have one or two that plane out high. Another factor is that I also haven't started doing 270's yet, i'm still doing combinations of 90's and 180's during a weekend of jumping.

After speaking to an experienced canopy pilot friend, the guy who i consider my coach/mentor, we pretty much agreed that that it would do me well not to rush things and to use the next year's worth of jumping to get me ready for a x-brace. (At the moment i'm doing 300-400 jumps a year). So I’ll stick with my elliptical for now and towards the middle to end of the year maybe start taking the Velo up on dedicated canopy jumps at the end of each weekend in preparation for the change over.

Thanks again

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[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Another thing, Peej: It makes positively no sense to transition to crossbraced canopies unless you have wrung every ounce of performance out of what you are already jumping. If you are still leaving your chest strap tight under canopy, do not stow your slider, and are not planing out at the right altitude, then you don't need to be changing canopies. Nothing makes me more nuts than to see some yahoo flying a Velocity straight in with his slider up above his brakes, his chest strap tight, and his arms working the toggles like an AFF student. Crossbraced canopies are shitty vanity purchases. They are expensive, pack very large, don't open nearly as well as non-braced canopies, and will hurt you bad if you allow the canopy to fly you. You must stay focused well ahead of fast canopies.

Chuck

[dharma1976 0]

Truthfully I love my Crossfire2 so much that I might never get completely sold on Crossbrace...

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

and have no desire to downsize again.

After this current winter break of ours, I feel that I am going to have to put the 87 on the shelf for a while and upsize at the very least to my 96 if not something bigger. I'm not really enjoying this seasonal jumping. But what can a 'Nuck do these days.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ianmdrennan 2]

bet you the 87 is pretty close in size, if not identical, to the velo 96.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Peej 0]

I couldn't agree with you more Chuck

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[pierre3636 0]

i moved from 120 hurricane (same as you i think) to 108 Xaos 27 on around 850 or something jumps. i posted quite a bit during the trasitional faze and maybe look up some of the replies (especially Brian Germain). link here ~ http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2577829;search_string=x-brace;#2577829

i have now done about 75 jumps on my Xaos which i might add is underloaded since its 1.85ish (but our dz is 4k altitude), the things i noticed during my transition (which im still in!) even though i am underloaded.

1- setup becomes alot more crucial - things happened alot faster - xbrace flies faster forward - i have aborted many many landings because im not satisfied with my setup because im not used to where i am at a specfic part of the setup - it just takes time to get used to it
2- even if you abort a turn and bail out using whatever (mostly toggles) xbarce canopies still dive and speed up sygnificantly when you come out of the dive - so you still have lots of forward speed and need lots of room than what i was used too.
3-once i actually started swooping and got onto my rears the swoop just kept on going (my perception relative to my old hurrcane 120) i was close to the ground, level and moving fast - waay to fast to try and run it out. this might sound strange but with once again its a perception change when going through the transition from what i was jumping and to the xbrace - you have to get used to actually swooping for longer and holding it.
4- the dive is ALOT steeper - dont get caught out in the beginning.
i must be honest - i am taking it extremely slow under the xbrace - i am not taking any chances i get my kicks with my WS

i have the bad habit at the moment of hook turning my wing suit canopy which is a pilot which i suspect is not helping me build skills on my xbrace - (thinking out loud here) but after reading about CHUCKS incident a while ago i doubt ill ever hook my Xaos up with my WS - i have had spinning mal cut aways under an elliptical main on WS jumps - thats cured me - i suspect going to a wing loading of 2 would be better for your first xbrace (you can jump a 108 big guy [;)) but that not the route i wanted to take.

hope this helps - my 2c

~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~

[proswooper 2]

my jvx 92 fits really nicely ontop of a velo 96 but is shorter chordwise and slightly longer spanwise. if i was to have a very educated guess i would say they measure within inches of each other.

weirdly tho my 96jvx was much bigger than the velo 103 i put it on top of.

so who the hell knows? i just fly them

sorry its off topic

i went x braced at around 850jumps and was jumping full time (everyday) for the preceding few months before. did my first pst meet at 950 jumps and came 27th out of like 50 i think.

did all my learning on sabre2 150. was swooping the shit out of it landing on rears carving the works.

[freeflyn 0]

My JVX 77 fits on top of my Velo 84 (almost exactly), however, it flies much more aggressively.

I went to a x-braced wing at ~1100 jumps.