Advice to new swoppers aka baby swoopers

[airborne82nd 0]

I cant emphasize enough about taking your time and forcing yourself to go slow.

i wear the digital alti everytime to set up i do the exact same front riser dive method the same and i start it the same exact altitude.

consistancy and sticking to the plan. if you walk out there and say your going to do a 180 at the pea pit at 320 at half breaks do your best to do that to the t.

if you level out 30 ft too high dont lower your starting altitute to say 290 keep at the altitute do nothing lower work on more effiecent and deeper dives.

baby steps baby steps!!!!! its imortant to be exact everytime and work on it from there. little by little.

its so easy to level out and swoop perfectly well and think you will do that every time. you wont . also dont try to go higher and faster either you have to forcefully take your time and progress one step at a time i dont care how good you are.

its like learning the force luke. you come in faster you have to learn how to see the ground at that speed and how to adjust and the faster you come in the more flare you have and you just touch the breaks or risers and you plane out to high or go back up in the air 20 ft and say ohhhh shit.

also read germains book its like a bible of flight.

just make a new years resolution to take baby swooping slowly. the great equalizer in this sport is anyone can do anything. my son was sit flying in 20 jumps it took me 50 and 30 minutes of tunnel.

so if you take your time and step by step andn down size slowly and make small adjustments and dont push it.

i have learned swooping is not a thing of courage. you dont just dive your canopy till you scare the shit out of yourself and then pull out. its a very technical and prescise sport that must be learned slowly. slow is fast and you will be amazed at how fast you will progress.

i am allready making giant strides by forcing myself to go slow.

i cant imagine if i pushed it and used just pure courage.

my long point is take it slow and you will be swooping bettere and better and after 6 months you wont believe it.

i know guys with no methoud no brain no tactic who are making no progress and several have been hurt.

[GQ_jumper 4]

nicely put bro

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[yardhippie 0]

If anyone takes anything away from this post, is should be "pace yourself".
Do people get hurt because they think they are "ready"? YES
Do people get hur because they think they are "good enough"? YES
Do people get hurt because they think they have it "figured out"? YES

But my piece of advice to you is: No set-up is exactly the same as before. No traffic patter is a mirror image of another. The ability to adjust to the changing conditions can and will save your life.

Some things you said make me nervous:
"consistancy and sticking to the plan. if you walk out there and say your going to do a 180 at the pea pit at 320 at half breaks do your best to do that to the t."

If youre doing a braked 180 at 320 feet that puts you flying against traffic. Bad juju.

"i wear the digital alti everytime to set up i do the exact same front riser dive method the same and i start it the same exact altitude."
Please dont rely on this to save your life. The digital altis are a tool that helps. If you put too much emphasis on one tool. You could fail. You have to be able to take in a massive amount of information is seconds: altiude, your position in the pattern, other traffic and their possible routs, sight picture, your outs. Also temperature, humidity, and mostly altitude density affect your canopys flying abilities.

You make some great points in your post, but I as a learning swooper, encourage you and everyone else in the sport to work with experienced pilots. Get their input on your flying. then get some more help. I consider myself very young in the sport of jumping/swooping, but I have had the luck to be in an area that has lots of experience pilots willing to help others. I have LOTS to learn.

Safe swoops.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[airborne82nd 0]

good points.

with out a digital is russian roulette i have both. and use my learning eyes and watch where i am going. traffic dictates everything of lower jumpers and the right of way.

consistancy is important if you go out and try something and then you say i have to do a bigger turn or lower turn.

thats what i am talkking about consistancy.

i have done 180 and planed out atr 20-30 18 times in a row once. i didnt change a thing i consentrated on diving the canopy a little more. i dont want baby swoppers like me get mad and say ill do it lower or a bigger turn. i just do a slight fine tune everytime and now i am working on 180 at a set altitute.

350-330 arouund. i dont rely on my digital its a reference for which to start and my alti also but its a hell of a tool and a hell of a safety factor and as your eyes learn its the best way to go.

i know guys that think they have to learn with their eyes and use no tool.

i would ask hey dude how high were you when you started that turn- they say i am not sure 300-400 wow you dont know??

and they did a single froint riser and planed out too high so i say hey whats your plan for the next swoop?? are you going to do exactly the same thing but try to dive a little harder?? they say naaa i am going double fronts to see what that will do for me.

then i see them almost skipping off the ground.

you have to have a method, a standard, your own program and progression and stick to it. you have to work on constant swopps of course no swoop is the same but dont do a 180 one swoop and the next swoop do a 270.

hhave some plan and stick to it. and no matter how fustrated you get modify the plan a hair. do everrything small.

temptation is a bitch resist it and relize the learning curve is long. if you take it slow and take it at your pace with coaching you will progress faster then you can imagine andd your less likly to get hurt.

if you go at it fast jump ahead have no plan no method then you will not make much progress oh you will have a few nice swoops time and again and you will likely get hurt or even injured.

this is like piloting a plane you have to it one step at a time too fast and no progress or even injury.

thanks for your post though i want you to understand i am a infant swooper who is doing quite well and taking my time, my skills are progressing nicely and i am getting a good feel for it and i havent shit my pants yet, but i am trainging how to practice bail outs.

it doesnt take courage it takes a long learned skill. when i dive my canopy i am not scared at all i am focused on my plane out and how the ground looks and should look.

youmust not push it no matter your percieved progress you get nothing from jumping ahead.

disipline to take it slow!!!!!!!!!!

[dharma1976 0]

you sound like me about a year ago :-P

remember to do it in person and lets also remember to give drills that people can actually do in the moment instead of just poo pooing them

That way they dont feel like we are belittling their godliness...

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[yardhippie 0]

Quote

thanks for your post though i want you to understand i am a infant swooper who is doing quite well and taking my time, my skills are progressing nicely and i am getting a good feel for it and i havent shit my pants yet, but i am trainging how to practice bail outs.

Youre welcome.

I too have much to learn when it comes to swooping, but then again I find that most of the really great swoopers, think the same thing.

I prescribe to this quote. I cant remember who said it first, but it rings true with me.
"In swooping, there are those who have been hurt, and those who will..."

Well, I have been, and it could have been prevented if I'd only listed to my peers. The people that jumped with me every weekend.

Now I listen with great intrest. Not only because it might save my life, but because the more information you can absorb. The better prepared you might be for the future.

Safe swoops.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[marks 0]

Quote

with out a digital is russian roulette

that is not true, If you can't do it without a digital alti, then you shouldnt be doing it at all.

[crazydiver 0]

Quote

Quote

with out a digital is russian roulette

that is not true, If you can't do it without a digital alti, then you shouldnt be doing it at all.

So true!

Cheers,
Travis

[AggieDave 6]

Sure, you should be able to do one with out a digital alti. However, why not use the best tools available to be the best you can be?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[hparrish 0]

Quote

Sure, you should be able to do one with out a digital alti. However, why not use the best tools available to be the best you can be?

Sure..............but not to learn how to swoop. I think you should learn without these tools, then integrate them to refine your skills.

[yardhippie 0]

Quote

Quote

Sure, you should be able to do one with out a digital alti. However, why not use the best tools available to be the best you can be?

Sure..............but not to learn how to swoop. I think you should learn without these tools, then integrate them to refine your skills.

So I ask. Why if you have many tools available to you, why not use them all?
Do you believe that it gives a new pilot too much to learn in the beginning?
Is learning the "old ways" a great progression, and such you learn more appreciation for the 'tools'?

Please dont think im calling you out, just trying to understand your position. I personally dont have a digital alti. I know I should have one, and its one of my purchases through the off season. I have learned to use my analog alti and my eyes. I think with the use of a digital alti, I could become more consistant.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[airborne82nd 0]

right swooping wihout a digital alti how are you supposed to learn and develop your swoop and when o start your turn. right by guessing.

baby swoopers brian germain says to learn to swoop without a digital is like russian roulette.

anyone says you should learn to use your eyes and not use a digital alti is foolish.

you dont develop your altitute awarness by guessing, 300 ft 400 ft how can you tell.

you dont jump without an alti and pro swoopers use digital alti's.

so new swoopers dont not listen to these that have gave bad advicem you cn not even safly begin to swoop with out knowledge of an exact altitute do not guess you cant tell 300 from 500 and your alti master 3 is not reliable. dont use your new eyes they are not releiable your eyes will be trained if they have an exact point of reference.

Practice your turns up high to get an idea how far you dive your canopy in say a 90 and then apply that to your starting point. but always watching how your canopy planes out.

dont listen to these guys split hairs on this get brian germains book the canopy and the pilot adn dont use your eyes use every tool at your disposal.

i know guys who use their eyes and are also making hardly any progress.

its not a macho thing to rely on your untrained eyes its stupid. swooping is technical as flying a fighter jet and the thunderbirds use all their intruments

its not their life that may be in danger its yours.

[packing_jarrett 0]

you serial?

I'm sorry thats sounds gay to me. Back when swooping was getting starting they didn't have digital alti's. Instead they use mental sight pictures to get their altitudes right.

Even today people use sight and aren't playing the RR.

I do agree that digital alti's definitely make swooping much easier. But I wouldn't/ didn't use one to start out with.

Na' Cho' Cheese

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

dont listen to these guys split hairs on this get brian germains book the canopy and the pilot adn dont use your eyes use every tool at your disposal.

That's 2 threads you totally dismiss other pilots advice. While I happen to believe that using all the tools as an AID is a good thing, I firmly believe that a proper progression foundation (double fronts, 90s) doesn't need a digital alti, but rather a good mentor and good training.

As turns get greater and the starting altitude gets higher and higher, judging the altitude becomes harder and harder for the initiation of the turn - therein lies the usefulness of a digital alti...however, it's still my eyes I use during the turn.

I highly suggest you train those as well and don't put all your faith in a device but instead use it as a guide, giving you clues on what to do next.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[crazydiver 0]

Quote

Quote

dont listen to these guys split hairs on this get brian germains book the canopy and the pilot adn dont use your eyes use every tool at your disposal.

That's 2 threads you totally dismiss other pilots advice. While I happen to believe that using all the tools as an AID is a good thing, I firmly believe that a proper progression foundation (double fronts, 90s) doesn't need a digital alti, but rather a good mentor and good training.

As turns get greater and the starting altitude gets higher and higher, judging the altitude becomes harder and harder for the initiation of the turn - therein lies the usefulness of a digital alti...however, it's still my eyes I use during the turn.

I highly suggest you train those as well and don't put all your faith in a device but instead use it as a guide, giving you clues on what to do next.

Blues,
Ian

Said so well, Ian. Of course it's in our best interest to use the best and most accurate tools, but for gosh sake...its crazy to rely on that one little altitude device. What happens when a swooper finds his or herself without a workin altimeter...its a safe choice to decide not to swoop on that jump, but a safe swoop can still be accomplished with a well trained set of eyes.

Machines can work correctly, read inaccurately, or become completely inoperable.

Never a good choice to rely on the altimeter as the only device.

You're a voice of reason, Ian.

Cheers,
Travis

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Sure..............but not to learn how to swoop. I think you should learn without these tools, then integrate them to refine your skills.

Why not learn to use the tools available while you're learning to swoop, so you can become a more consisitant swooper and a safer swooper? I guess you want beginner swoopers to just guess at their altitude and hope they're right. I guess that'll learn them, slamming into the ground and everything. Nothing teaches people like breaking their femur and pelvis, huh?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[hparrish 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Sure, you should be able to do one with out a digital alti. However, why not use the best tools available to be the best you can be?

Sure..............but not to learn how to swoop. I think you should learn without these tools, then integrate them to refine your skills.

So I ask. Why if you have many tools available to you, why not use them all?
Do you believe that it gives a new pilot too much to learn in the beginning?
Is learning the "old ways" a great progression, and such you learn more appreciation for the 'tools'?

No I dn't believe that this tool is ggod to start swooping with. It can be more of a distraction than a learning tool. It teaches folks to rely on equipment rather than learning to judge distance visually. I think Digital Alti's are good tools after you have the basics down.

[hparrish 0]

Quote

right swooping wihout a digital alti how are you supposed to learn and develop your swoop and when o start your turn. right by guessing.

baby swoopers brian germain says to learn to swoop without a digital is like russian roulette.

anyone says you should learn to use your eyes and not use a digital alti is foolish.

you dont develop your altitute awarness by guessing, 300 ft 400 ft how can you tell.

you dont jump without an alti and pro swoopers use digital alti's.

so new swoopers dont not listen to these that have gave bad advicem you cn not even safly begin to swoop with out knowledge of an exact altitute do not guess you cant tell 300 from 500 and your alti master 3 is not reliable. dont use your new eyes they are not releiable your eyes will be trained if they have an exact point of reference.

Practice your turns up high to get an idea how far you dive your canopy in say a 90 and then apply that to your starting point. but always watching how your canopy planes out.

dont listen to these guys split hairs on this get brian germains book the canopy and the pilot adn dont use your eyes use every tool at your disposal.

i know guys who use their eyes and are also making hardly any progress.

its not a macho thing to rely on your untrained eyes its stupid. swooping is technical as flying a fighter jet and the thunderbirds use all their intruments

its not their life that may be in danger its yours.

Ummmmm "These Guys" have a hell of allot more swooping experience than You do. Sorry But thats a Fact.

Second I used to sell Brian Germains canopies, so I'm not slamming him. While I respect allot of what he says...........He is not the end all be all when it comes to swooping. His opinions are just that.

[hparrish 0]

Quote

Quote

Sure..............but not to learn how to swoop. I think you should learn without these tools, then integrate them to refine your skills.

Why not learn to use the tools available while you're learning to swoop, so you can become a more consisitant swooper and a safer swooper? I guess you want beginner swoopers to just guess at their altitude and hope they're right. I guess that'll learn them, slamming into the ground and everything. Nothing teaches people like breaking their femur and pelvis, huh?

Oh come on Aggie............I sometimes think you argue just for the sake of argument.

Did you learn on Digital Altimeters? Anyone before they start swooping should know how to visually compare their altitude using their visual altimeter or visual references. That's what saves your but when you mess up. you need to recognize mistakes visually to save yourself in time. (Although I should talk).

They should start swooping using the basics, and getting a feel for swooping. Not starting their Dive when a Beep goes off in their ear.

Digital Alti's are a reference tool that I believe should be incorporated after you have the basics down. Not a tool to learn how to swoop with, a tool to learn how to advance with.

[marks 0]

Quote

anyone says you should learn to use your eyes and not use a digital alti is foolish.

I have a hard time believing Brian would teach you that. I would suggest to you to take another class with Brian, also seek out where you might find Scott Miller doing a course and take his also. and on top of both of those things, find yourself a mentor in your local area and start picking their brain, watching and learning.

[twnsnd 1]

Look. There is alot more to this than you seem to think. As said before, all the original swoopers, and all swoopers up to the very recent advent of this digital alti, learned how to swoop, and swoop well, with an analog altimeter.
You may know exactly what altitude you need to initiate a given turn, exactly where above the earth you need to initiate that turn, have an instrument that tells you EXACTLY what altitude you are at, and still not swoop well. All the digital alti does is tell you where to start on the x axis. You must also consider turn rate, dive rate, and wind drift during the dive. The alti will not magically get you where you need to be on each leg of your setup either. You must visually determine your position above the earth and the progress you are making. Only your eyes can tell you what altitude you are at when you swing around on that last 90 degrees. You only have your eyes to tell you if you are drifting toward or away from your entry point so that you can adjust turn rate to compensate. It is not nearly as easy as getting to your desired altitude, holding down a riser for a couple of seconds, letting go, planing out, and you rock.
This miracle of modern science on your wrist is not going to make you a good swooper. Repetition, coaching, and practice in combination with ultra currency makes great swoopers. Don't try to compare yourself against a factory pilot or competition swooper if you can only make a couple hundred jumps a year.
The digital alti is a nice innovation that makes it easier to determine altitude, and that is all.

-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

Don't try to compare yourself against a factory pilot if you can only make a couple hundred jumps a year.

Definitely not disagreeing with you here Ryan. It's just that this statement makes me realize what a little fish I am in this big pond of ours. Oh well ... I guess I'm not willing to cut away and risk it all.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[twnsnd 1]

Dude, sometimes the best way to stay safe is to realize that some things are unachievable. This statement I only apply to myself of course. I just feel like there are people out there who seem to think that pro swoopers do just as few jumps as they do and any day now, thier skillset will catch up. We just have to step back and make a realistic assessment of our abilities and potential. None of this is worth getting hurt or dying for.

-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-

[Spizzzarko 0]

Old bald Canadians just shouldn't swoop...

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

find Scott Miller doing a course and take his also.

As a side note, Scott Miller is why I bought a Neptune a few years ago. I was having some consistancy problems with my setup, sometimes I was right on, sometimes I was a little high or a little low, etc. He helped me with my pattern and told me to buy a digital alti. Then he taught me how to use it correctly. Using it to fly my pattern accuractely. If I could fly my pattern accuractely, then I would be over the point of maneuver I wanted to be at and at the right altitude.

It worked.

For Hparris, nope, I started to learn with a non-digital alti, but by-god I wish I would have bought a digitude first to learn with. Using a digital alti has really helped me progress quickly and more safely.

That's cool that you're still doing it the old school way, keep doing it and please compete. It'll be easier to beat you.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."