questions regarding RDS experience

[MrBrant 0]

Hey guys,

Just wondering if I could draw on the RDS experience pool.

Disclaimer: I did not do the RDS to swoop faster or further - at my level, that would no nothing for me anyway.


Anyway, background:

A few of us at the dropzone were cooking up ways to get rid of trailing P/C's under canopy. (ideas ranged from RDS to triathlon-like retractable bridles, to pc that get sucked into flaps in the canopy, and even ones attached to the slider, with the bridal running through a grommets in the canopy, to pull the pc flush with the top skin) These made for some good debates if nothing else.

RDS won out as being the simplest and easiest to implement.

Attached is the system I cooked up while trying to sleep one night. Right now, its just a removable bag & PC. I have plans to do the slider too, but I'll get to that later.
I just read earlier this week that there are people who use pretty much this same system (see diagram - probably with a few differences though).


It seems to work pretty good. Takes about 100 feet longer to open at terminal than the deployment system. Although the sub terminal openings are a bit wonky. Anything less than 4-5 seconds off the 182 usually gives me line twists, sometime spinning.

My theories are:
1. Gromet not punched directly in centre of slider. It looks good, but maybe I was of by 1/8 inch
2. Perhaps I need a longer bridal extension between the bag and slider. 2 other people on the DZ are now using this system, but with much smaller canopies - so the length ratio is alot bigger. Perhaps I need to get my bag further above the main canopy, and out of its turbulence on opening.
3. using 2 attachment points at either side of the slider would help.

Anybody care to share their sub-terminal RDS experience?


The next thing I want to do, is the removable slider. I think I have in my head exactly what I want to do, but wouldn't mind seeing other people's set up - or diagrams of actual systems in-use.

The reasons for the removable slider is for visibility and noise reasons, and that I want to get rid of that stupid RSL shackle.
I recently (couple weeks ago) read that they had a history of releasing prematurely. Being arrogant, I decided to leave my system as it was (since it was working just fine - the other people MUST have been doing something wrong). Until last Friday, when mine released prematurely (on a 9k hop&pop in high winds) and I lost the P/C and d-bag. d'oh.
I have also recently heard that the RSL does do damage to the tail of the canopy. (I had thought of that during the design, but decided to go ahead and just keep an eye on it.) Now that I know that it probably will do damage, I want it gone (replace with a slink).


1 more question. Anybody have any negative experiences with flying and landing with the RDS still hooked up to the slider? I usually don't bother to reel it in on my RW jumps (since i'm not open until 1800 feet). I've landed it a few times after flying it up high and haven't found any problems.


So, to summarize:

1. Anybody have similar experience with sub-terminal RDS deployments resulting in line twists?
2. Anybody see anything blatantly wrong with the system I'm using (in diagram)?
3. Anybody willing to share their removable slider diagrams so i can compare them to my ideas?
4. Problems with landing the hooked up system?


Thanks for your input!

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

There is quite a bit of information exactly like you are looking for in other threads in this forum. A simple search would give you all the answers you want. Still, here are my quick thoughts:

-none of us use 1" "reserve bridle material (whatever that is) for our RDS line. A piece of Vectran line is just fine.

-ALL of us found out that using an RSL shackle is a quick way to lose your deployment system if it touches anything in the deployment process. My first one went "sayonara" over Crosskeys dropzone in early 2003. Most people I know who jump "partial" RDS systems like you describe who still leave their sliders on use small Rapide links. Those people are now in the minority though as the great, great majority of jumpers using an RDS system have gone "full system" and use removable sliders.

-looks like you punched a gromet in the tail of your slider instead of sewing on tabs like everyone else does. That actually doesn't sound like a bad idea to me as I did, back in the days before I got my removable slider, did have two jumps where I could not release my RSL shackle and, later, my Rapide from the tail of the slider. Reason? The lines had fouled around the tabs and shackle. I had to reel it in and stick it down my shirt, still attached to the back of my slider.

-I don't know why in the world you would be jumping your main with an RDS system and dumping in the 2000 feet region. That just doesn't make sense. If you are going to jump with an RDS hooked up, you MUST open high enough to reel it in. Leaving it trailing behind your slider is nuts. Better to just use the RDS when you know you are going to have time to fully appreciate it's benefits.

-I jump a "complete" RDS system with vectran lines and a Joe Bennet-built removable slider (the industry standard). On most jumps, my bag, pc, and bridle are still up on top of my main, but I pull my slider off on every single skydive. I only jump the lines attached to the back of the slider when I am training or competing (which is pretty rarely this past year).

PM me if you don't get all the rest of the answers you want from the others who are going to give their advice.

Chuck

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Anybody care to share their sub-terminal RDS experience?

I'm jumping an RDS from the ParaConcepts people out of Chicago and I've had no issues so far (knock on wood) with their RDS whether I'm dumping out the door, taking a 4-5 second delay (my preferred method) or dumping terminal. I like their system for my JVX so much that when I have the money I'm thinking of ordering one from them for my Velo (assuming they make one for Velos). It's one of the pricier systems out there, but it is very well made and has worked like a charm for me so far.

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Anybody have any negative experiences with flying and landing with the RDS still hooked up to the slider? I usually don't bother to reel it in on my RW jumps (since i'm not open until 1800 feet). I've landed it a few times after flying it up high and haven't found any problems.

I only jump my full RDS when I know I'm pulling high or am on a dedicated hop n' pop. But like what Monkey-man said, I'm a convert to taking off my slider on all my jumps. Sure it takes longer to hook up (a couple of minutes) but it's really fast to take the slider off and it's so nice not to have a slider on my canopy after it's open. Now to answer your question, I can't really fathom why I wouldn't be able to land with my full RDS system still hooked up to my slider (I likely would come in straight though if I ever found myself in that boat). But full RDS systems really shouldn't be used for normal freefall jumps where your opening altitudes could be low. Do you really want to be dealing with realing in your RDS when you should be flying your approach and/or avoiding other traffic?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Spizzzarko 0]

I like to build a little speed before deploying with the full RDS. I'm not saying that I deploy in a head down like the dude in the cobalt comercial, but I don't throw the pilot chute back into the door of the aircraft as I leave either. An RDS can be a cool thing, but make sure you are using it for the right reasons. If you decide that it is good for you then I suggest Joe Bennets or Mels from Skyworks rigging. They have really good customer service, and are nice guys too.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I don't throw the pilot chute back into the door of the aircraft as I leave either.

As I mentioned, I prefer to take a 4-5 second delay before I deploy my RDS. But when the competitor in front of you dumps out the door and then proceeds to fly in deep brakes once they are all sorted out, then you're pretty much going to need to dump out the door as well.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Spizzzarko 0]

That's why you kick them in the balls when you get down hahahaa. I'm glad that JVX is working out for you.

[MrBrant 0]

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-looks like you punched a gromet in the tail of your slider instead of sewing on tabs like everyone else does.

Yup, i just re-inforced the side without binding tape, and got my friendly neighborhood rigger to bang in a gromet.

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-I don't know why in the world you would be jumping your main with an RDS system and dumping in the 2000 feet region. That just doesn't make sense. If you are going to jump with an RDS hooked up, you MUST open high enough to reel it in. Leaving it trailing behind your slider is nuts. Better to just use the RDS when you know you are going to have time to fully appreciate it's benefits.

Most times when I pack up my main, I don't know what my next jump is goin to be. (RW, H&P, light CRW, etc.)
On the freefall RW jumps, after opening I don't bother with reeling in the system.
I'm not anywhere close to the level where it would make a difference on landing (I'm still just working on accuracy with 90''s, so it doesn't have many apprecialbe benifets in that regard anyway)

I just don't want to unpack my main to hook up the RDS every time i do a CRW jump, just because I packed it with the pc attached on top for a FF jump.

Do you see any issues with landing the system, besides not reaping the benefits.

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PM me if you don't get all the rest of the answers you want from the others who are going to give their advice.

Chuck

Thanks for the help Chuck, I really do appreciate it.


Steve:

Thanks for you input too!

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I can't really fathom why I wouldn't be able to land with my full RDS system still hooked up to my slider (I likely would come in straight though if I ever found myself in that boat).

I was thinking of this at first (only landing straight in with the system hooked up), but as hard as I try, I can't think of any complication that could occur doing a carve. (Unless you can get your canopy to turn on a dime, and wrap the bridle around your neck).
I've done a few 90's in for landing with it hooked up, with no decernible issues.

What are you thinking could come up?


Thanks everyone for your comments. Keep 'em comming

Brant

[frost 1]

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I suggest Joe Bennets or Mels from Skyworks rigging. They have really good customer service, and are nice guys too.

I can personally vouch for that also. Nothing but good vibes and high quality work from MEL and Joe has been really cool about taking the time to explain things to me...

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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That's why you kick them in the balls when you get down hahahaa.

I think I'm going to have to establish myself more on the competitive swooping circuit before I start kicking guys like Chris Hayes in the balls. But my wing loading will be much higher next season now that I'm on Shimell's old rag and I likely won't need to worry about being last out on a pass next season.

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I'm glad that JVX is working out for you.

I sold my JVX 96 so that I could buy Shimell's JVX 87 and it's been tons of fun so far (I've only got 8 jumps on it, 2 of those in Colorado a couple of weekends ago). But I will definitely be holding on to the my Velo 103 (your old canopy) for the time being as I doubt the JVX 87 is the best choice for zone acc and I'm thinking it may be too small for being in traffic on normal fun jump loads (I am a tad leary about premature cypres fires with the 87 on normal jumps). But time will tell ... but if I do hold on to the Velo, I'll be wanting an RDS for it and if the ParaConcepts people don't make one for the Velo, then I will either talk to Mel/Joe and/or get in touch with Jeff Bell (I think that's his name) out of Kapowsin as his system is also supposed to be very well made.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[MrBrant 0]

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I suggest Joe Bennets or Mels from Skyworks rigging. They have really good customer service, and are nice guys too.

I can personally vouch for that also. Nothing but good vibes and high quality work from MEL and Joe has been really cool about taking the time to explain things to me...

agh, that takes half the fun away!!

[hexadecimal 0]

I'm 95% sure they do make one for the Velo.

[golowjoe 0]

Brant ,
Not to rain on your parade but if you only have a couple hundred jumps then you have a ways to go before you need to worry about removing stuff . You don't have the experience you think you do to deal with the problems and traffic that can come up . That being said the reason your openings are not consistant and you have line twist sometimes is your single line from the center of the slider . You are deforming the slider on opening and not letting it do what it is designed to do . Your bag and pilot chute are pulling the slider back and not letting it open up and this is letting the air rush into the nose and if one side sees air before the other then you get line twist . Be careful with your experimenting and I hope you are current on your emergency procedures . Blue skies and good luck . Joe Bennett

[MrBrant 0]

Hi Joe, thanks for the reply!

I completely agree with you regarding the removal in traffic. I only bother to reel it in on h&P's' (for practice), and on CRW jumps - where we discuss positions, headings, and all know where each other are while we reel in. (C-182 dropzone, only 3 other jumpers to keep track of at all times. - yes I know that issues can still arise)

I do honestly appreciate the concern though
Thanks for the tip on the single slider attachment. On the next model, I'll probably go with 2 attachments, one on each side.
How long would you suggest the lines be, before they merge into a single line? Is 2-3 feet sufficient, or should I go all the 5' to the bridal attachment point?
Is 5' long enough to the bridal attachment? (I have about 18" slack between top of cigar rolled canopy, and bridal attachment)


Thanks again,

Brant

[marks 0]

the only issue I can see here, is this stuff is alrady invented. there is no reason to reinvent the wheel..

now, to answer your question.

12 inches or so on the two attatchment points, and 6-8 feet on the bag attatchment lanyard.

don't try to fix something that isn't broke, and be very very careful about trying to reinvent the wheel.
this stuff your making is already out there.

[MrBrant 0]

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12 inches or so on the two attatchment points, and 6-8 feet on the bag attatchment lanyard.

Thanks! I'll have to lengthen mine when i do the 2 attachment point things. I'm guessing I should probably go on the high side of that - since my 188 is a bit bigger than the normal sub-100 canopies with the RDS's.


Eh, half the fun is re-inventing the wheel! I could have bought a digital altimeter instead of making one too - but there's no fun in that. (that being said, i have no interest in re-inventing the H/C system, or reserve - some things just shouldn't be fucked with! lol)

[marks 0]

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12 inches or so on the two attatchment points, and 6-8 feet on the bag attatchment lanyard.


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sorry, I think it is more like 18" now that I think of it.

[twnsnd 1]

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I completely agree with you regarding the removal in traffic. I only bother to reel it in on h&P's' (for practice), and on CRW jumps - where we discuss positions, headings, and all know where each other are while we reel in. (C-182 dropzone, only 3 other jumpers to keep track of at all times. - yes I know that issues can still arise)

Classic "Thanks for your professional opinion but I am going to do what I want regardless" response.

-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-

[davelepka 4]

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I usually don't bother to reel it in on my RW jumps (since i'm not open until 1800 feet).

Man, thats fucking dumb. I'm not even sure if I'm talking about jumping an RDS and not swooping, or just getting open at 1800 ft, or combining the two.

Anyway you want to cut it, just dumb.

First off, pull higher. At least 500 ft, maybe more. Tell all of your buddies too. Even if you're doing RW, move the break off up, and your pull altitudes as well. One day the extra feet may save your ass. Really.

Second, either ditch the RDS idea all together, or man up, and repack your shit if you're not planning on removing it. Keeping things as simple as possible the way to go. Having an RDS if you're not swooping is dumb, and then to not even remove it on a jump is really making things far more complicatied for absolutley no reason. I vote you ditch the RDS until you're an awesome swooper, and it's the only way you'll go any faster or any further.

Dude, above all, take a deep breath, and think about what you're doing. You're skydiving. Jumping out of a plane. Thats exciting enough for now. Don't try to reinvent the wheel, or make things harder then they need to be just to do it. Thats how you get yourself or someone else fucked up.

Just the fact that you would use a centered single-piont attachment for your RDS shows a lack of understanding as to whats going on.

[frost 1]

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I usually don't bother to reel it in on my RW jumps (since i'm not open until 1800 feet).

Man, thats fucking dumb. I'm not even sure if I'm talking about jumping an RDS and not swooping, or just getting open at 1800 ft, or combining the two.

Anyway you want to cut it, just dumb.

First off, pull higher. At least 500 ft, maybe more. Tell all of your buddies too. Even if you're doing RW, move the break off up, and your pull altitudes as well. One day the extra feet may save your ass. Really.

Second, either ditch the RDS idea all together, or man up, and repack your shit if you're not planning on removing it. Keeping things as simple as possible the way to go. Having an RDS if you're not swooping is dumb, and then to not even remove it on a jump is really making things far more complicatied for absolutley no reason. I vote you ditch the RDS until you're an awesome swooper, and it's the only way you'll go any faster or any further.

Dude, above all, take a deep breath, and think about what you're doing. You're skydiving. Jumping out of a plane. Thats exciting enough for now. Don't try to reinvent the wheel, or make things harder then they need to be just to do it. Thats how you get yourself or someone else fucked up.

Just the fact that you would use a centered single-piont attachment for your RDS shows a lack of understanding as to whats going on.

While i agree with you completely... why waste your breath, telling the man what to do? Obviously he will do what he wants to do anyway, the man himself just advised him about how bad the idea of RDS is at 200 jumps. Are you even allowed by BSRs to open @ 1800 with 200 jumps (no D license right?)

[davelepka 4]

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Are you even allowed by BSRs to open @ 1800 with 200 jumps (no D license right?)

First off, he said open at 1800. which I take to mean the PC is out somewhat above that. Either way, I don't give a fuck what the BSRs say, thats just too low.

The other thing is, he offers 1800ft as his open by altitude, and also offers that his RDS adds '100 ft' to how long his canopy takes to open. These two statements alone show that this guy has the wrong idea. First off, things don't happen that regularly in skydiving, especially when it involves deployment. Second, if he believes either of those numbers to be dependable, and makes any plans around that dependability, he's on the short list for about to be in for a surprise.

[Spizzzarko 0]

I think there is a lot of confusion here about RDS's. The RDS should not be used as a replacement for your collapsable slider or kill line pilot chute. If you are not into competitive swooping pulling the bag and pilot chute off is pointless. Even the crew guys find that the RDS is to time consuming. By the time that I can get mine off and stowed most crew people can get a 4 stack together, and I'm pretty damn fast at realing my shit in and stowing it. If you are pulling low like you say you are then an RDS is really complicating matters for you, as the time that you have to deal with the higher malfunction rate of an RDS is greatly deminished. There is no need to be in freefall below 3000'. If that is your bag of tricks then go and hang out with the nearly deads in the base forum. With the setup you have I bet you are getting some squirrely openings. Just ditch the RDS idea, so you get better openings so you can pack faster, and so you will not have to deal with the added posibility of malfunctions. Most of us who jump RDS are riggers, have over 1000 jumps, and are hard core swooping. I wouldn't use my full setup on aff jumps or rw jumps. Some people do, but I don't like the traffic hassels involved. Good luck dude.

[MrBrant 0]

hey guys,


thanks for the info so-far, it's very helpful.


To (attempt to) address some concerns

1. Again, I'm not using the RDS to swoop faster, further, or on fire. That wasn't my goal for the system. I know it will make ZERO difference for me at my level on landing. I know to everybody else, swooping is the point of the RDS, but the main reason we're doing it is not.
The main goal was to get rid of trailing pilot-chutes when doing some light crw. (Yes i know a good CRW team would bang out a 4 stack before we could finish reeling in our systems - but we're not at that level yet. if we were, we'd be jumping CRW canopies)
The other goal (for me) was simply a mental exercise. I've learnt alot doing it, and that was the point.

2. Somebody mentioned I don't know what i'm doing - as evident with the single grommet int he centre. You're right - I started this project knowing only the bare basics (pc goes on slider). But thought discussion, and brainstorming between a few of us at the DZ, we all learnt alot. The research, and this thread has also added to the knowledge.
so yes, I started out not knowing what i was doing, but I'd like to think i've learnt something doing it. (And I'd be willing the bet a SHIT-LOAD of money that I havn't been the only one to try this with a single centre attachment point)

3. Pull altitudes. No, i'm not throwing at 1800 feet - I apologize if I miscommunicated. I jump at a 182 dropzone, where our ceiling is 9000 feet. SOP is breakoff at 3500, pull at 2300. This is what is taught right from the get-go for the A-license.
Before the RDS i was under canopy of 1900, after it's been 1800. I didn't take it on a freefall jump until I had about 20 jumps on the system. Was this wise? Perhaps, perhaps not, but the terminal openings are actually quite nice - not squirrely at all.
Like I said, i just leave the system attached after opening on those jumps.


I think that's about all of them. I know that you are all just looking out for me, and I do thank you for that. I hope I'm not coming across as pig-headed.



Anyway, back on topic. I'm still looking for a few things if people are willing to share?
- Anybody willing to share a removable slider diagram so I can compare my ideas?
- Does anybody see any issues with landing with the RDS system still hooked up?
(remember, the point of the system is NOT for swooping)


Thanks in advance!

[piisfish 135]

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- Does anybody see any issues with landing with the RDS system still hooked up?
(remember, the point of the system is NOT for swooping)

it's fine as long as YOU think it's OK to land with a Dbag and a PC trailing and pulling on your slider.

I would NOT be OK with that.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Spizzzarko 0]

Personally I think that having it trail back behind you is not a really good idea and here is why. The added drag of the bag and pilot chute will cause the slider to increase the wear on the lines where your slider sits. Also this setup has the potential of entanglement with your body or your crw partner. If it were entangle with you then your main may be trailing (still attached to you) when you cut away from a wrap or canopy colision or collapse. When deploying your reserve you want a clear shot for the launch. People have gone in because of little things entangling with the reserve deployment. I do use an RSL because I would like to be somewhat belly to earth when I fire my reserve (how ever the new RWS RSL doohickey seems to be a cool idea as long as it were installed correctly). Another thought about why it would be bad to have that stuff trailing behind you would be an entanlgement on landing. I can see it happening where you would fly close to the wind sock and that stuff would get entangled and you would pull the windsock down. Now the DZO is pissed at you and throws you off the dz, and you go speeding off in your car. The local cop that stakes out the DZ looking for pothead freflyers sees you speeding and pulls you over. Now you are pissed off because the cop pulled you over and you have been thrown off the dz so you mouth off to him like an idiot. The cop drags you out of the car through the window by your trachea (throat) and beats you to deat with his bag light. Now do you see how your home made RDS can kill you?!

[Vectracide 0]

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Somebody mentioned I don't know what i'm doing - as evident with the single grommet int he centre. You're right - I started this project knowing only the bare basics (pc goes on slider). But thought discussion, and brainstorming between a few of us at the DZ, we all learnt alot. The research, and this thread has also added to the knowledge.
so yes, I started out not knowing what i was doing, but I'd like to think i've learnt something doing it. (And I'd be willing the bet a SHIT-LOAD of money that I havn't been the only one to try this with a single centre attachment point)
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You are correct in that someone did find out that the single attatchment point did not work well. The difference between you and him is several thousand jumps. Dude...think about it......the people that make these things, test it themselves after being in the sport a long time and with shitloads more jumps than most of us. Most systems are tested with a teiterary rig that is chopped at a safe altiitue in order to deploy a proven system. You, however, are gathering "knowledge" from within your own core group of friends at the DZ (most likely as much exposure as you have to skydiving), and hoping for the best when testing your new product. Its just not smart dude.
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Pull altitudes. No, i'm not throwing at 1800 feet - I apologize if I miscommunicated. I jump at a 182 dropzone, where our ceiling is 9000 feet. SOP is breakoff at 3500, pull at 2300. This is what is taught right from the get-go for the A-license.

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Wow, I really dont even know what to say here. I guess I can say this with no qualms....... Your instructors are fucking idiots......? I'd say that would be pretty accurate.

All this talk about your RDS system is really nothing in comparison to the issue you have here. Your depolyment alititude is WAYYYY to low. There is just no reason whatsoever for you to be pulling at those altitudes unless you are in a big-way, have shitloads of jumps, and its required for seperation safety. We both know that you are not doing this, so its pointless for you to tempt fate by pulling that low. I know you "think" you can take care of any issues you might have at 1800 feet....but it just not so. Hopefully you wont have to prove this to yourself the hard way......because you usually dont get a second chance to learn the big lessons in this sport.....all of us will....resulting from someone's fatality. Harsh but true.

I can say all of the above with no problem at all dude.....I've been there. I used to take it to 3k or a little lower once in a while....not for any thrill....but just because I didn't fear it...... this is what happened...
http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=guestpass&id=h37h5
What you dont see here, is that I dumped at 3k...had a baglock that I cleared which gave be linetwists that were unrecoverable at my altitude. By the time I got away from my main (hard pull) and deployed my reserve, I was in the saddle at 900 feet. Doesn't seem quite possible just by looking at the vid does it? But it happens that fast bud. Since then, I have moved my breakoff to no less than 4.5 and dump at 4k. The second part of that vid doesn't have anything to do with dumping low...but how well do you think your shit would open if that happened to you? Not well.
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I know that you are all just looking out for me,
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Yes...we are.
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and I do thank you for that. I hope I'm not coming across as pig-headed.
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You are coming across as youve got it covered....all figured out......I can handle it......thanks for your opinion......

You can thank us by simply heeding the advice of those that preceed you. Especially the advice of Mel himself.

The RDS system was designed for swooping. Some have used this system for other uses....but with much more experience than you, and certainly better safety practices. If you want to do crew...buy a crew canopy that already has what you need, without the hassle of a RDS.

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Controlled and Deliberate.....