LEARNING how to swoop, long or short recovery arc?

[mattjw916 2]

I don't think the Nitron's lines are coated either (that I can tell) but they feel different than the black ones on the Nitro. I haven't had any tension knots or mals on either canopy. I pack pretty neatly though (symmetric, neat, line stows) and I don't wad my lines up when I land.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[yardhippie 0]

the older Nitro(Hiper: Nitro, Blade) canopies lines were unprotected from UV. their color is a brownish tan. The new Nitro lines are black, my understanding is: the color is to help reduce the effect of UV light on the life ot the line. this is not a coating but a dye. (please correct me if Im wrong). As for precision canopies: a Nitron or a Fusion, etc. I dont know what lines they are using now. that being said.

i am not a very neat packer. I keep my stows very short (about 1" or less). I find it helps with deploymment (lines twists). I also leave about 20"-24" of line between my last stow and my risers. I then wrap my risers/lines around the bottom of my reserve container till they meet in the middle, and simply 'S' the remaining line. Ive got at best 400 jumps on this canopy and packing this way Ive never had a tension knot, or even anything that looked like a tension knot.
IMHO the "knots" experienced while walking the lines out are due to how the force is applied to the lines. For instance: if the lines were to "knot" up as they were walked out. Keep tension on that "knot" and have someone pull the canopy away from the container. the loose lines would then become tight and the "knot" would simply go away. therefore: that type of knot is not any more probably than on other line sets, because the lines have tension applied to them from the canopy down, not the risers up, and a tension knot with HMA is simply a packing error, not b/c of the line type.
but then again... I could just be crazy.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[panzwami 0]

That sounds about right. I've got about 250 jumps on my Nitron (Precision), and I've never had any problems with the lines. I do a "normal" PRO pack, with 2"-2.5" stows and 15"-18" of line between last stow and risers. Never seen any issues with tension knots or anything else. Never had to chop it. I think mine was one of the first few Nitrons to roll off the line when Precision started with Ground Zero. It has the "brownish tan" HMA lines.

They do tend to bunch up a little bit when I'm running the lines during packing, but it's just like hippie said. A couple of the lines get wrapped around the others and tighten up, but a few shakes of the lines usually clears it.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Back to the track. Is it a nice if my canopy flatten out from a double front in 3-4 seconds? Other word, my neptune has indicated minimal descent rate(0m/s) after 3-4 second I've gently released front risers after keeping them down for 6-7 seconds.

Is that the right canopy to learn how to swoop?

[davelepka 4]

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I also leave about 20"-24" of line between my last stow and my risers. I then wrap my risers/lines around the bottom of my reserve container till they meet in the middle, and simply 'S' the remaining line.

I don't think it's supposed to go that way. I'm pretty sure you run the risk of a line group hanging up under your reserve, and removing the container from the harness.

I also think that a brief hang-up in that area will contribute to line twists, not making regular sized stows, as you indicated elsewhere.

Run the lines down to the bottm corners, and then go in, across the bottom, meet in the middle, and S fold the rest. Be careful when placing your bag in the pack tray, not to disturb the loose line in the bottom.

[yardhippie 0]

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I also leave about 20"-24" of line between my last stow and my risers. I then wrap my risers/lines around the bottom of my reserve container till they meet in the middle, and simply 'S' the remaining line.

I don't think it's supposed to go that way. I'm pretty sure you run the risk of a line group hanging up under your reserve, and removing the container from the harness.

I would have suspected so if I had not been taught this methond by my JM a mirage owner (I also jump a mirage.

I also think that a brief hang-up in that area will contribute to line twists, not making regular sized stows, as you indicated elsewhere.

i did have some intermittant line twist problems a few hundred jumps ago, but after a discussion with Bezy I started using shorter stows, it all but eliminated them.

Run the lines down to the bottm corners, and then go in, across the bottom, meet in the middle, and S fold the rest. Be careful when placing your bag in the pack tray, not to disturb the loose line in the bottom.

now that would make me nervous. when I place the bag in the container its with the stows to the bottom of the container. having any unstowed line in that area, IMHO, would greatly increase the potential for tension knots.

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Back to the track. Is it a nice if my canopy flatten out from a double front in 3-4 seconds? Other word, my neptune has indicated minimal descent rate(0m/s) after 3-4 second I've gently released front risers after keeping them down for 6-7 seconds.

Is that the right canopy to learn how to swoop?

the amount of time a canopy will flatten out after a dive is going to be directly related to the angle and speed of the dive. (with my canopy the Nitro)
I have noticed and learned (the hard way) that one should fully understand those charachteristics. A learning process of practicing up high and starting a slow progression from double fronts to what ever turn you find is best for your particular canopy.

Is it the best canopy to learn to swoop? i dont know. I know that it can (and DID in my case) hurt you. I would recomend it for somone looking to progress in to swooping. As far as size goes, get with your local swoopers, S&TA, and discuss with them because there is no "cookie cutter" formula.
just remember: if you ever hear someone telling you your too low, or your going to get hurt, and you think your ahead of the curve. Youre wrong. the ground is hard and it WILL hurt you.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

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[Fast 0]

Someone was just telling me about a few reserve containers that were ripped off the harness because of lines getting caught on the bottom of the packing tray.

I doubt that any of the manufacturers recomend stowing that way. There are lots of reasons that it is a bad idea. Do you freefly or ever fly with your head up? Or even anything close to that? If you have your risers stowed under your reserve and you have a sitfly premature opening you are going to be much more likely to have the reserve ripped off on top of that your at an even higher risk for main problems when you have a fast deployment. This would be in part due to the fact that your body position might lock the risers under the reserve tray as the bag leaves you at an angle that is much closer to your head.

My question to you is what percieved benifit are you gaining by having the risers go under the tray? I can see some downsides which include what I mentioned above as well as added wear on the reserve pack tray and stiching between reserve and harness. It is also one thing that stuff could get caught up on just in general.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[davelepka 4]

Whoa there Jimmy! Take your real life examples, and old fashioned good sense and back up a moment.

Read the man's post - his JM, who jumps a Mirage said it's cool. As we all know, JM + Mirage = end of discussion.

Some people.....

[Spizzzarko 0]

lol dude. That was great.

[meatbomb 0]

Mattjw916 wrote:

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Wait, you mean that Brian recommended his own canopy to you, I'm shocked!

He also wrote:

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Chris Martin really hit the nail on the head when he recommended it (Nitron) to me a couple years ago.

The phrase that comes to mind has something to do with a pot, a kettle, and the shade black...or is it stones and glasshouses?

---
Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii!
Piccies

[yardhippie 0]

Just a couple things:
even with 21" risers theyre barely long enough to get to the bottom of the reserve container.
yes i freefly, probably90% of my jumps are freefly, in just about all orientations.
Ive had three prematures. all from a sit/stant orientation.
2 were before i sent my container back for some updates. its a G2 (not full bridle protection) so I sent it back to have G3 flaps installed and a freefly handle.
the 3rd was due to some how knocking the pud loose on a climb out. We saw it loose in the video of me.
I reviewed the owners manual and there is no reference to orientation of lines/risers other than orientation of stows on the bag to the container. So I sent em an email asking for their recommendations.

hey, I could easily be wrong. But thats why we're here right?

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[Fast 0]

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hey, I could easily be wrong. But thats why we're here right?

Yep!

You missed: What percieved benifit does stowing your risers under your reserve give?

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[yardhippie 0]

percieved benift being:
keeping the unstowed portion of the lines away from the stows. Possibly preventing the unstowed portion from wrapping around a stow and creating a bag lock and/or tension knot.

my idea being. that because the "group" of lines meets in the middle of the bottom of the and as tension increases on the lines, the will continue to "want" to be together until all the stows are removed. So cosider a stand/sit premature. the lines are in the center of the container, the will act much like a board on a corner and "ride" the outside bottom of the reserve container.
does any of that make sense?

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[hookitt 0]

The instructor who showed you that is not correct.

The unstowed portion of the lines in reality is not an issue. They aren't going to wrap around other lines unless you do it intentionally or your packing techniques are horrific.

Keep the lines down the side and away from under the reserve tray. There are many instances where a reserve tray has been removed from the back pad. It's caused by unstable or back to earth or vertical deployments.

The tray won't leave completely but it will smack you in the head as it flips up. When it does happen, the damage and line burns all over the container are most impressive. The reserve will still probably function properly if needed.

A bight of lines in a rubber band is pretty soft, it takes a lot of ingenuity to actually wrap another line around one and make it stay there. If it were easy to do, there would be daily baglocks because there are some seriously crummy packers out there.

Just put the lines down the side, and place the bag in the tray in an orderly manner.

Good luck.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[davelepka 4]

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percieved benift being:
keeping the unstowed portion of the lines away from the stows. Possibly preventing the unstowed portion from wrapping around a stow and creating a bag lock and/or tension knot.

If your line stows are against the bottom of your container, and the loose line is on the floor of the pack tray, how could there be a conflict?

Take care to place the d-bag straight down on top of the loose line, and you won't have a problem. If you are in the habit of placing the stows on the floor of the pack tray, and rotating the bag down in to place, just don't.

Look, I made 1000's of jumps with my lines routed up under my reserve tray. I never had any premature deployments, or other problems, but once this issue came to my attention, I just switched. It's entirely possible to be wrong for a long time, and never suffer because of it, but it's still wrong.

[yardhippie 0]

I do see everyones point, and I will be looking at this my first pack job of the weekend, and most likely change my packing methods. Below is feedback I recieved from Mirage.

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To Whom It May Concern:



Some friends and I are in a light hearted all-be-it serious discussion of the proper orientation of risers, excess line between the risers and the final stow on the bag.

I purchased my G2 new in 2001, off the shelf. It is a 1999 model. I sent it in somewhere around 2002 to have the flaps updated to G3 specs and have a freefly handle installed on my pc.

I would like to know the manufacturers recommendation for riser, line, bag orientation, as I could be doing it incorrectly.



Thank you for any help.

>John,

> For all regular jumping, I recommend leaving no >more than 16” of line from the risers to last stow. >The bags mouth lock with line stows always goes to >the bottom of container with the bridle coming out >the top/agents the reserve divider wall.

>For someone that does lots of Bird Man jumps, it >may be wise to have the main corners opened 2/3s >to 3/4s (by a master rigger) and pack with the >lines agents the reserve divider wall. This is not >recommended for the active free flyer and >occasional Bird Man jumper.

>Hope this helps.

That does help, but has led me to another question.

For all freeflying how would you route the risers (I am currently using 21” risers, but may go longer in the near future) and the excess line between the risers and the final stow? This would be the portion after they pass under the primary and secondary riser covers in to the main tray?

>On a Mirage, it really doesn’t matter so long as >you just keep them neat and under the bag.

If anyone wishes to know who I was corresponding with at Mirage feel free to PM me. I left at those portions b/c I neither a representative for Mirage nor a rigger. I am definitly not an expert.
just my .02

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[GQ_jumper 4]

or is it stones and glasshouses?

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don't forget if you live in that glasshouse to change with the lights off, nobody wants to see you naked

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[mattjw916 2]

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Mattjw916 wrote:

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Wait, you mean that Brian recommended his own canopy to you, I'm shocked!

He also wrote:

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Chris Martin really hit the nail on the head when he recommended it (Nitron) to me a couple years ago.

The phrase that comes to mind has something to do with a pot, a kettle, and the shade black...or is it stones and glasshouses?

Lighten up, Francis...

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Fast 0]

You may want to ask them specifically about putting the risers under the reserve pack tray.

Any thoughts from this weekend?

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[padawonMonkey 0]

I don't post that often (can't really get away with it at work anymore) but I do have my theroies about learning a canopy. You see for me it is more important to learn your canopy than it is to learn to swoop. I have jumped Sabre2, nitro/tron, Vengeance, Stilleto,a few others (not enough to form a good opinion though) and am now happy on my Velocity. Within three jumps on a new canopy I can confidently begin doing safe front riser approaches.

I took the time to sit down with a good coach and ask questions and then developed a method of testing a new canopy that works for me. Carfully measuring its capablities and gradually getting more aggresive (very gradually) allows me to be safe and learn quickly. I would suggest the same thing for you. Get a Sabre2 or Nitro and learn how to make it do everything it can from backyard landings to returning from the longest spot you can. Once you have mastered your canopy and know how it should feel then begin slow shallow front riser turns (remmember you can always hang on fronts to keep it in dive if you are to high but its way harder to recover when you are to low) these turns will help you realize how to dile in your canopy and you can steadily get steaper and deaper in your turns.

I believe this approach makes your canopy selection almost immaterial. Start conservative and then move on but as long as you are slow, methodical and careful
you will be able to progress quickly. When you do finally progress to jumping a Velocity or the like (there is nothing like) you will wonder what all the hype was about. The poor cross-braced canopies have been demonized by stories of underexperience and overzealous jumpers hurting themselves regularly. Realize that swooping under any canopy is dangerous but it is and always will be the pilot and not the canopy that makes it so.

Just my 2 cents take if for what its worth.

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"But I'm Just doin what I have to do to survive"-MM

[Vertifly 0]

I think that is all good advice dude. But 500 jumps on a Velocity isn't what I would call following slow progression.

[padawonMonkey 0]

I get that alot. There seems to be a good rule of thumb throughout the swooping community though. "If your friends (the ones that watch you jump all the time) tell you you don't belong on a canopy or that you are dangerous then you certainly are." Well the rule works both ways. I also haven't updated that in a while its probably more like 700 now (not that thats a huge difference). If you have less than 1000 jumps and are on a velocity you had better be ready to defend yourself, and I am. 90 percent of my jumps have focused only on improving my canopy skills. I am also always (after a few incidents early on) open to advice and criticism. I will gladly drag Chuck (skymonkeyone) in to assure you that I am safe and capable of handling myself. However, I will admit that I am the exception to the rule and to spite what I do know there are things that can only be learned with jump numbers that I still have to catch up on.

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"But I'm Just doin what I have to do to survive"-MM

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I think one of the issues for people of lesser experience jumping cross-braced canopies is that the cross-braced canopy can be a beast when they try to kill you on opening. The lesser experienced jumper may or may not handle these violent malfunctions the proper way. Cross-braced canopies are ultra effecient with very powerful flares (even when coming in straight). But they do tend to try and kill you more often than the traditional canopy designs.

Other than that I agree with a lot of what you say about the wing, about dedicating jumps to canopy control and in terms of getting coaching and knowing your wing. Just remember that any one of us is capable of messing up and us lesser experienced guys haven't seen all that there is to see in this sport that the more seasoned skydiver has seen or experienced.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[padawonMonkey 0]

agreed. but as with most things about canopy progressiong it is subjective.

I have more experience than I care to remember with hard or squirly openings. There is still a picture floating around (I think loudiamond has it) of my neck (bloody and shreded) after a hard opening. So hard it put me in the hospital.

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"But I'm Just doin what I have to do to survive"-MM

[crazydiver 0]

Theres nothing you can really do to "handle" a super hard opening. I imagine what Canuck is talking about are the searchy openings that can quickly put you into line twists and spinning on your back. Landing aside, to take it to the extreme...a person with 200 jumps would have more reserve rides from a crossbraced canopy than someone with 1000 jumps due to their inability to stay cool and fight the beast.

Cheers,
Travis