Katana -vs- Velocity

[dploi 0]

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I find them to have the same performance as do most other canopy pilots.

Just because you end up with a 250' swoop on two different canopies doesn't make them "identical". This is not a good benchmark. A pilot might have a flying style that warrants the same distance swoop under any comparable canopy. I didn't get bigger swoops on my Velocity for about 30 jumps, because I was flying my Velocity like my Katana. Once I started flying harness more and got used to the timing of the rears that the Velocity wanted, I added a good forty feet to my swoop.

How many of these "other canopy pilots" have spent the time learning and taking advantage of the way the canopy was designed to be flown? If you fly a Katana like you fly a Crossfire 2, you'll probably get the same results that you get with the Crossfire 2, and maybe vice versa (though I think the Katana has a little more potential for speed and lift than the XF2 -- just my opinion).

[masterrigger1 2]

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I quess I do not understand that statement because the Katana is nothing more than a Crossfire! Period.
One will not not do what the other will do! The canopies are almost identical! The line trim is a little steeper, other than that the same!
MEL

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There is no way that this statement is based on experience.

I probably work on, test jump, and install more performance enhancing modifications than most.

Remember, the different manufacturers work on their own canopies and I work on all the different makes out there.

Well at least most of them.

Yes, I have jumped the Katana. and the Crossfire 2.

I have also taken them apart and put them back together when damaged.

I have to make templates to cut ribs and so forth, so I have a good feel for the rib design.

Yes, there are differences in the nose, slight increase in trim angle and construction techniques.But in the end, the Katana and Crossfire 2 are very similar in design.Remember the Crossfire 2 came out first before the Katana.

Do this.. put trim tabs on the front risers with a similar sized Crossfire2 ( on a 109 pull them down almost 2 inches at altitude. Fly the canopy that way and see the performance increase.

You have the right to your opinon, but remember I have one too!

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You can't pull this "they're the same canopy" wool over my eyes.

No one is trying to... then you could not see to land

BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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[marks 0]

[dploi 0]

All perspective, I guess. Inches of fabric here and there make for two very different flight experiences.

[NeedToJump 0]

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All perspective, I guess. Inches of fabric here and there make for two very different flight experiences.

I agree. I have found the two canopies to fly very differently as well. If it's only a few inches of fabric difference then that's fine, I guess PD found the right few inches to change

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[masterrigger1 2]

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All perspective, I guess. Inches of fabric here and there make for two very different flight experiences.

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I agree. I have found the two canopies to fly very differently as well. If it's only a few inches of fabric difference then that's fine, I guess PD found the right few inches to change

Remember this. No matter what canopy and it's manufacturer, when they develop a new canopy, it has to fly "speedier" than it's competitor to sell. That is, if it is in a class with other ready built canopies by other manufacturers.

The Crossfire 2 had no canopy in it's class to contend with when it was built and designed, so they did not have to contend with being "speedier".

In this scenerio, The Katana had to fly deeper in trim to get faster reponding canopy, but they scraficed the openings when they did it.

They are both great canopies, but you have to realize the facts.

Not saying that you are, but they are way too many "Manufacturer Groupies" out there.
I take each canopy and evaluate it for what it is, not from whom it is made.

Cheers,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[NeedToJump 0]

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The Katana had to fly deeper in trim to get faster reponding canopy, but they scraficed the openings when they did it.

I don't understand how they sacrificed the openings. I have put over 500 jumps on two Katana and have love the openings.

Out of my 500+ Katana jumps I've had
3 openings with line twists (same packer) and the canopy dove a hell of alot but it was easy to kick out of.

1 opening with one toggle being unstowed (same pack as above...) and the canopy opened in a slight spin. I didn't even realize that the toggle was unstowed, I thought I was just uneven in the harness and then looked up and saw the toggle.

5-10 openings where the canopy stays cocooned over my head and then opens unpredictably - caused by rolling the tail too much, no fault of the canopy.

I've found that if I pack neatly, the Katana opens extremely well.

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Not saying that you are, but they are way too many "Manufacturer Groupies" out there.
I take each canopy and evaluate it for what it is, not from whom it is made.

I am a PD groupie, but this is because I believe in the company and its products. They have a proved track record and are the only canopies I have ever owned. I've jumped a lot of other canopies but I personally have always liked PD's canopies better.

Being a PD groupie doesn't mean that I am biased against other companies, there are a lot of great canopies out there. I completely agree that a canopy should be evaluated for what it is and not *just* on who manufactured it.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[Spizzzarko 0]

I like their reserves.

[masterrigger1 2]

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I don't understand how they sacrificed the openings. I have put over 500 jumps on two Katana and have love the openings.

The Crossfire 2 has a better opening than the Katana. I have sold numerous Crossfire 2 canopies to individuals just for that reason.
How many jumps do you have on a Crossfire 2?

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I've found that if I pack neatly, the Katana opens extremely well.

Exactly my point... The Crossfire 2 needs does not need anything to get good openings.

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I am a PD groupie, but this is because I believe in the company and its products. They have a proved track record and are the only canopies I have ever owned. I've jumped a lot of other canopies but I personally have always liked PD's canopies better.

Being a PD groupie doesn't mean that I am biased against other companies, there are a lot of great canopies out there. I completely agree that a canopy should be evaluated for what it is and not *just* on who manufactured it.

[NeedToJump 0]

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The Crossfire 2 has a better opening than the Katana. I have sold numerous Crossfire 2 canopies to individuals just for that reason.
How many jumps do you have on a Crossfire 2?

I think the Crossfire 2 has very nice openings. I have about 50 XF2 jumps and thought it was a great canopy. I just prefer the Katana.

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The Crossfire 2 needs does not need anything to get good openings.

Good for the XF2. I don't see needing to pack neatly being a "sacrifice", but our opinion on that obviously differs. I'd willing to go through the sacrifice of packing neatly for all the other great things I like about the canopy.

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That is exactly what I am talking about. If you go into an evaluation with the attitude of paragraph "a", you will be biased in your evaluation.

What??? I like PD canopies. They come out with a new canopy that I try and I like it. Brian Germain also makes canopies. I've tried some of his and liked them too. I personally liked the Katana better, not because it is made by PD, but because I prefered its flight characteristics. I bought the Katana. Where's the bias?

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[dploi 0]

400 openings on my Katana. Line twists a few times that have either flown straight or were easy to correct. Some body position related dives here and there and one brake fire that was fixed and flying straight in one revolution. I never chopped my Katana, and almost every jump on that canopy is in a Skyflyer 3. And I pack WAY sloppy, every time. Even my BASE packjobs are sloppy (it's all body position).

In terms of staging, I found the two to be almost the same. Low snatch force, and a long snivel. It's different for the last part, though. On the Crossfire 2, the last part of inflation is very slow. At the end of the snivel, the end cells slowly creep open and the slider slowly creeps down the last two feet. The Kaana opens almost the same way, but at the end of the snivel, the end cells pop open and the slider is all the way down. I prefer the latter, actually, but it's all just one's opinion.

I think more people than not label a long opening as a good opening, which is just fine. I prefer a "long enough" opening. I'd most definitely readily jump either canopy with a lot of weight on my head without worrying about getting whiplashed.

But I wouldn't say that the opening is "sacrificed". If it is, it is not anywhere near giving a "bad" opening.

I'm not a manufacturer groupie. I give as many canopies as I can the old college try before I buy. The deal with PD, though, is that their high performance canopies just fly very differently than what else is out there.

We can go on and on about the way this is trimmed or this is cut, or how this opens, or how far we swooped what, but the fact of the matter is that the flying experience is DRASTICALLY different. The most FUN I've had flying is with the Katana and the Velocity. That's what really matters.

I guess what we're trying to resolve here as that your claim that the Crossfire 2 and the Katana are the same does not pertain the way the canopy feels. Can we agree on that?

[NeedToJump 0]

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We can go on and on about the way this is trimmed or this is cut, or how this opens, or how far we swooped what, but the fact of the matter is that the flying experience is DRASTICALLY different. The most FUN I've had flying is with the Katana and the Velocity. That's what really matters.

Yup, that's my point too.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[masterrigger1 2]

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Yup, that's my point too.

[flow 1]

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if you want to jump a Crossfire 2 with the same type of trim as the Katana, let me know and I will set it up for you!

Send it to Europe and I'll jump it.

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[dlee 0]

MEL what do you think the Katana line trim will do to the openings? i never jumped a katana, but i love my crossfire. Shake it and bag it it will open great even if you dump out sideways. I have a video...

I am sure someone has had a Sh&ty mal on a crossfire before, i am just not sure what you do to get one? duct tape perhaps?

I am all for the crossfire, but hey I will try anything three or four times...

[ast4711 0]

Going off-topic...:

I had a very "funny" mal on a 119 crossfire II (WL1.7).
I am still not shure about it, but I think, I did not stow the left brake correctly, so that it either was not stowed at all or opened immediatly, while the canopy still in the bag.
It resultet in a very fast spinng with, literally hundrets of linetwists :-(

Up to that day I thought I never expected this from a crossfire, but now I am convinced that every canopy can (and will!) malfunction in a very unpleasant way.

Just try it out and let one brake unstowed :-) Dont forget to post the result....

alex

--
www.tandemmaster.net
www.skydivegear.de

[dharma1976 0]

I have had so many toggle pops on my crossfire 2 at this point its like open open open taking off at the ground

fortunately at thispoint I know that to give the opposite rear rise asap will remedy the situation

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[ast4711 0]

I have had toggle pops before too and I know how they feel but belive me, this one was very different and there was no way to get it under control.

I am not saying that I am not happy with my cf-II, I would recommned it to everybody who has the required skills, but I say that every canopy will spin you up more than you like it at some time.

alex

--
www.tandemmaster.net
www.skydivegear.de

[morris 0]

Just to end this discussion: The Katana is the better canopy! Over and out... ;-)

[piisfish 135]

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Just to end this discussion: The Katana is the better canopy! Over and out... ;-)

nope, the NEOS is better

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[masterrigger1 2]

Morris,
I would say it just all depends on the individual.

If they want a great all around canopy, they probably would want a X-Fire2...


If they want something more high performance and not quite as nice openings, they would look at the Katana.....

If they want something a little hotter than the Katana and still have the great openings of a XF2; they probably would be looking at the newest hybrid X-fire2, the GLS XF.

It has basically the trim discussed in this thread with my 340 HMA lines on it, along with sail material.

Again, it is all personal perspective I guess.....

Cheers,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[johny103 0]

OHHHHHHHHHHHHH oHHhhhh!?***

[bob.dino 0]

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I have had so many toggle pops on my crossfire 2 at this point its like open open open taking off at the ground

This came up in another thread, possibly in Safety & Training. There's a significant difference between popping a toggle when the slider hits it, and packing the rig with one toggle off. In the latter case, the canopy appears to start turning much earlier in the deployment sequence...

[dharma1976 0]

what about popping the toggle as soon as there is riser stretch...

it isnt my slider...its the keepers being slightly worn...

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[dharma1976 0]

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Yup, that's my point too.

You two would make a good couple

Yes I agree that they feel different. That takes us back to my point that the line trim is the major difference.

To end this thread(please)( I just heard "Amen" in the background!!), if you want to jump a Crossfire 2 with the same type of trim as the Katana, let me know and I will set it up for you!

MEL