Opening High for Bad Spots

[BrianSGermain 1]

This is a continuation of an ongoing discussion of the issue of pulling high when the spot is long enough to put you off the DZ.

My thoughts relate to probability.

The odds of landing off when pulling low on a long spot are very high, perhaps an impossible scenario.

The odds of getting hurt when landing off the DZ are much higher than a landing on the DZ.

The odds of someone falling through your canopy when pulling high are fairly low, given the use of safe separation between exits and ample canopy tracking practices.

Due to the probabilities given here, I choose to pull a little higher when the spot is long enough to put me off the DZ.

I understand the concerns for the uninformed. There will always be risks associated with not knowing the rules of the sport. Such people will get hurt with a greater frequency regardless of policy.

All we can do as people that are "in the loop" is protect ourselves from harm and teach others to do the same.

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[davelepka 4]

***All we can do as people that are "in the loop" is protect ourselves from harm and teach others to do the same.
-------------------------------------------

Lets not forget to protect ourselves from those outside of 'the loop'.

[BrianSGermain 1]

I think of the situation as being similar to the old "Pink Panther" movies. The main character was constantly being attacked by Kato, his assitant. This is the feeling I get at boogies.

We must remain on our toes...

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[jerry81 10]

I understand this logic and agree with the odds mentioned, but to me, this is also about trust; i.e. do I trust my canopy skills more than I trust the person/group exiting behind me.

Based on previous experience (and I feel I've had my share, despite the low jump #, probably because of where I jump), I know that I can land my canopy in a less-than-perfect spot in less-than-perfect conditions. I also know that people around here (can't speak for other places) will sometimes do the most amazingly stupid things (like flying an [email protected] with 250 jumps ) including, but not limited to, exiting right behind you, tracking down the line of flight and pulling when they pass you at 2500'.

Brian, I will take your thoughts into consideration and try to explain them the best I can to those willing to listen. But until I can be sure that those going out behind me have at least a basic understanding of exit order, separation and the definite dos' and dont's' associated with that, I will not pull much higher than usual (a couple of hundred feet, as Davelepka suggested in the other thread) even if it means landing out yet again.

BTW, is it just me or have you started contributing to these forums a bit more lately? I'm sure I don't speak for myself only when I say I really appreciate your input.

---

[freeflir29 0]

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The main character was constantly being attacked by Kato, his assitant. This is the feeling I get at boogies.

Brian.....can I use that? That has to be the best damn boogie analogy I have EVER seen!!! I have VIDEO to prove it.

[BrianSGermain 1]

You betcha. Quote away!

Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com
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[Martini 0]

As I see it:

Pulling high increases your odds of a collision with jumpers behind you. The higher you pull the more you increase the odds.

Horizontal separation is a function of aircraft airspeed. If everyone tracks 90 degrees for 4 seconds on a no-wind helicopter jump everyone is still stacked up. If someone pulls high it could be ugly. You have to move the aircraft through the air, the faster the better. Nothing to do with groundspeed either.

The big air effect helps keep incidents low. No doubt in my mind. Too many factors affect the outcome. (airspeed, fallrate, separation time, tracking speed and direction, pull altitude, canopy direction, awareness, experience etc.) Horizontal group separation is the biggest factor keeping the big air effect from being the main source of safety.

Jumping a Cessna 182 with 4 fliers incurs less chance of a collision than an Otter load.

Just my 2 cents. Worth every penny.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[crazy 0]

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The odds of someone falling through your canopy when pulling high are fairly low, given the use of safe separation between exits and ample canopy tracking practices.

If the odds of someone falling throught my canopy were high at 4500ft, i doubt they would be significantly smaller at 3500ft anyway (tandems and students open higher than 4500ft; most others lower than 3500ft). Hence, if someone argues that i can't pull high on a bad spot, because of that specific risk, i would point out that there is a serious issue with horizontal separation.

Either people rely on vertical separation and this is the safety issue, or they they don't and there is no safety issue about pulling high (well except with the pilot for the quibblers).

--
Come
Skydive Asia

[jdfreefly 1]

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Pulling high increases your odds of a collision with jumpers behind you. The higher you pull the more you increase the odds.

I do not agree with this at all. The only way this could be true were if the group behind exited right on top of you. The less time the two groups are in freefall together, the less time they have to drift towards each other.

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Horizontal separation is a function of aircraft airspeed.

I agree, but it is also a function of winds aloft and fallrate. Belly fliers drift more because they are exposed to the wind longer. Helicopters and other zero airspeed craft are special situations and should be treated as such. Also, if you can't spot for a helicopter from 5000 ft, some one needs to see the eye doctor.

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Horizontal group separation is the biggest factor keeping the big air effect from being the main source of safety.

Well said. But if horizontal group separation is maintained, wouldn't that make someone pulling high a non-issue?

I pull high when the spot is bad not because I don't have confidence in my ability to land off, but because it is a hassle to not make the dz. Also, you are less likely to piss off a neighbor, which has happened to me before.

I have had near misses but always for the following reasons:
1. the person behind me did not leave enough time.
2. the person behind me was "working on my headown"(aka tracking across the sky)
3. the winds had changed and we(as a dropzone) had not adjusted separation accordingly...this is subtly different from #1

Always, this was an issue of inexperience, and in a way my fault for not making sure the people behind me were "in the loop" as Brian says. In all instances, I knew the people behind me were inexperienced and did not take the time to give them guidance they needed. Shame on me!

But never was this an issue of pulling high.

on a side note, when you peeps out there have a close call, and everyone of you will, do not greet the person on the ground with curses and shouting...this is a certain way to ensure that they don't listen to a word you say.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[hookitt 0]

In all my years of jumping, I've had a few close calls. There were definate reasons for them. None of them were from a random high pull at 3500 or 4000 feet. Over analyzing the chances of pulling high and having a canopy and human collision are just that, over analysis.

Multiple aircraft is a different story so I'm not including that.

Sure it can possibly increase the chance but I'm with Brian on this. If you look down and you know your 2 miles away, open!! I'm perfectly fine with landing off and walking but I'd prefer not to.

Remember the part about clearing your airspace? Looking above you and waving off? Well, the waving off doesn't do much to inform the group behind you. Looking above you to ensure the air is clear works wonders. Looking up lets you know if you can safely cease the freefall portion of the skydive. It works at 2500 and 4000.

Give a reasonable amount of time between exits and things work out. When you talk to the new jumper that's going to exit behind you, Ask him to count to what ever the count is for the day, and let him know, that it's (say this slowly and use your fingers for emphasis) 1 mississsippi ... 2 mississippi......3 mississippi.... Catch my drift?

That's my 2 cents... so far that's 4 total.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[alan 1]

Good discussion on probabilities, it is what I was getting at in my last reply to you in the other thread. Each day of jumping has its' own circumstances and they have to be evaluated. For example, I wouldn't advocate pulling low on a long spot becuase it certainly would not help improve the situation, but then I wouldn't advocate pulling low on a good spot either.

Would I pull high on a long spot? On a small Cessna DZ doing a 4 way. Sure. Would I do it at Rantoul? Maybe, if I was in the last group out of the plane. Most places lie somewhere in between.

What about getting hurt landing off. At Cross Keys you could have some really poor options depending on the jump run and how bad it is. Landing off in the desert at Coolidge could put you in some nasty cactus. Landing off here in the midwest might mean landing in corn field or some hay field. I have literally hundreds of off landings and no injuries, I own a balloon and also do a lot of impromtu ultralight jumps. I don't have to rely on a windsock at a DZ. I guess my point is that landing off can be a learned skill and the better you are at it, the lower the odds of it hurting you. It is a lot like doing other things that have risks, you get better at it the more you do it. For most people it would not be worth the effort and risks incurred during the early stages of learning.

The real problem I have is with exit separation. Yes, the odds of a collision given safe separation and good canopy practices are low, but go up considerably when you don't have those things. So that really makes the question more about the odds of having safe separation on exit. If you believe safe separation on exit is not an issue or is only a problem with inexperienced jumpers, just look at the posts in this thread. Experienced jumpers agreeing that separation is a function of aircraft airspeed.

Your experience may differ but you did say something about Kato and the Pink Panther that I think makes my point. Bigger planes, bigger DZs, more people all add up to more unknowns. On virtually every load I have been on at a boogie or big DZ where the first group or two takes too long getting out, every one else except the tandems are yelling go! go! go! and they give poor separation. The odds of having safe separation on a long spot are pretty low. Who here hasn't experienced looking up at the plane just after exit and seeing the next group or individual already leaving, even after you asked them too asure you of a safe wait? I wish I had $100 for every time someone has said "Ya, I'll give you a good long count" only to look up and see them out the door in about 3 seconds. Who here hasn't experienced a close call? Sure, the close calls are invariably due to poor exit separation. That is exactly the point. If I open high and the person behind me didn't give good separation, the odds for a collision are much higher, especially with mixed flying disciplines. We shouldn't rely on vertical separation, but it is nice to have if someone makes a mistake on the horizontal part.

Due to the probabilities, I would not just make a blanket decision to pull high on a bad spot , but evaluate the whole situatuion case by case. If I'm last out of an Otter or back with the tandems and students, sure I would. If I'm on a 4 way at my little Cessna DZ, sure I would. A busy day at Eloy, probably not. At Cross Keys, it would depend on how busy it was and the jump run. At Rantoul, maybe if I was in the last group out.

What do I advise others to do? Be aware of the situation and do what you think is right for you with the existing circumstances and those can change on every jump.

I wonder if "a little higher" means the same thing to you as it does to the people at the other end of the plane? Is it 500'? Is it 2000'? With adequate horizontal separation neither should be an issue. Do I mind if the group exiting in front of me opens at 5 or 6K? No, because the separation variable is in my domain, I'd feel safe with seeing them open at any altitude. Would I always feel safe opening at 5 or 6K? No, not always, because the separation variable is now someone elses ball. I'm cautious with the trust I place in people I don't know.

It is not always easy to know who the uninformed are until it is too late sometimes. Things change, I may be informed one day and uninformed the next. I can recall when the informed people were advising us to fly in half brakes in turbulence, now the informed people say on the newer canopies, use full flight. I can recall when the informed people only advocated RSLs for students. That is still debated, but I think today most of the informed think they are advisable for expreienced jumpers as well. I can also recall when an RSL was not advised for use on an elliptical canopy. Again, it is still debated, but it seems that with the tide is changing on that one as well.

Well, thanks for the conversation. I hope others at least were stimulated into some thought on the topic.

alan

[nbblood 0]

Well, this is an experience I had that is closely related to this topic.

I am a stickler for knowing what other people are doing on the load, i.e., where are they breaking, where are they pulling.

On one particular load a four-way exited in front of my four-way. I asked......twice......where they were pulling and they told me 3 grand. The spot was good no issues. We gave at least 8 seconds separation on a low wind day. I caught a glimpse of a canopy going to line stretch when I was at about 7 grand. I then had those 8 seconds to a. determine where he was going b. let my 4 way know where he was and c. miss the guy.

From where he opened compared to the rest of his group, he broke and tracked along the flight line, toward us. My 4-way broke when we saw him and I was the closest to him. I didn't dare dump for fear of being in about the same space at about the same time with the guy. I saw where he was, where he was going, and tracked for some clean space, hoping he didn't turn.

I screamed past him at about 5 grand (remember he said he was pulling at 3......twice). I'd say I missed him by about 100 feet, and that was plenty close for me. BTW it wasn't his fault I missed him.

When I got to the ground, he told me they had completed all their points and decided to break early. I was restrained before killing the guy, but it just barely. And hey, he probably got a 3 point 4-way completed in that time.

On a further note, he continued to fly up the line of flight after deploying, and I wasn't the only one that had issues with him, although, I was by far the closest call.

I'm not sure if or by how far our 4-way would've missed him if I hadn't caught a glimpse of his deployment.

Anyway, food for thought. Scared the shit outta me.

I'm still a pretty low-time jumper. Anybody woulda done anything different?

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Horizontal separation is a function of aircraft airspeed.

It is a function of aircraft groundspeed, not airspeed and time betweeen exits.

I agree that pulling high on long spots is OK, but do remember that landing off can be done safely, but odds are that a canopy-freefaller collision generally can't be done safely.

Derek

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I will absolutely dump high if I know I am hosed. Generally, in those situations, I am in the front of the plane with an AFF student. If I think I can make it back, then I am going to exit and traffic behind me is minimal; tandems and wingsuits. If I am in a "middle" group that exits after the first group which happens to have gotten out on a downwinder (lets say it was pilot error..), then I am going to do whatever I can to land on the airport. I am going to point wildly toward the airport to my buddies, then I am going to track my ass off in that direction, then I am going to dump high enough to make it back safely. Before I throw my pilot chute, I am going to wave off very conspicuously then let it fly. If anyone got out after me and didn't realize that they too were hosed, but kept on humming it down over the swamp then that's their bad. I don't think the risk of getting hit by a "raining skydiver" under canopy is any greater than getting badly injured by landing in the middle of the piney woods or in a city street under my Velocity 79.

Just my opinion, but then I have been jumping for over 23 years now and have seen MANY more instances of bad injury and/or death from landing off than I have from people falling through canopies. Both happen, but generally not for the same reasons. Most of the instances where I have seen and heard of people coming through canopies were straight over the top of the dropzone, right in the correct spot. Never heard of it happening when someone dumbed out, way out, and trying to get back to the airport.

Peace,

Chuck Blue
D-12501

[davelepka 4]

1. The big sky theory is for newbies. Anyone who proposes this needs to put more of thier brain into their skydive. It's a big sky, yes, but the plane is dropping all of us in a little slice of it. Knowing the direction of jumprun, and your relation to it will allow you to pull at most any altittude you wish. Tarcking off the line of flight while looking up the jump run for the group after you will let you clear your airspace. Canopy tracking after that will add to your safety. It's a small slice of sky we're using, keep track of it and manage your skydive accordingly.

2. If exit separation is your concern in pulling high, you better keep your PC in the pouch until 1800ft on every jump. Any jackass who is going to exit right on top of you will also hum it right down to the basement every time. This guy will smoke past you even if you pull at 2500ft.

3. Making it clear to the entire load what the time between groups is, AND WHY, is key. Informing newbies of how the windspeed vs. time thing works, and how when the wind is up you can give more time in the door, without ending up miles away from the DZ will ease thier emotional response in the door.

Experienced jumpers can build respect for exit separation in the 'cool' culture of the DZ. Telling stories about 'losers' who hop right out early, and how using your head and being patient is the way to go will change the behavior pattern of newbies.

[alan 1]

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then I am going to track my ass off in that direction,

We spend alot of time teaching newbies not to track along the line of flight but perpendicular to it. Doesn't that send a mixed message, don't do it unless you are hosed on the spot?

And FWIW, unless you are wearing the wingsuit, opening just 500' higher will buy you more distance to get back than tracking for say, 10 seconds along the line of flight.

alan

[Cajones 0]

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That is exactly the point. If I open high and the person behind me didn't give good separation, the odds for a collision are much higher, especially with mixed flying disciplines. We shouldn't rely on vertical separation, but it is nice to have if someone makes a mistake on the horizontal part.

But wouldn't longer time in freefall increase the chances of horizontal drift and therefore increase the chances they are in your airspace?

It seems like you are assuming groups are pulling at progressively higher altitudes in exit order. Not so. Exit order is more determined by discipline (ff vs. rw vs. ws, etc) and size of the group.

If you see a group exit closely after you exit, they are placing everyone in danger. Pulling high also should not place other loads above your canopy at opening altitudes if you fly your canopy away from jump run. You are descending as you fly back to the DZ and if you are following the simple rules we all should be following you should merge right into traffic.

We can all talk about the "one time in band camp..." scenarios. These are generally examples of jumpers not doing the right thing. Not examples of the majority, nor examples of why we should all pull at 1000 feet. Be a good defensive driver.

My 1/50 of $1... Cajones

The laws of physics are strictly enforced.

[alan 1]

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If I am in a "middle" group that exits after the first group which happens to have gotten out on a downwinder (lets say it was pilot error..), then I am going to do whatever I can to land on the airport. I am going to point wildly toward the airport to my buddies, then I am going to track my ass off in that direction,

Sounds as if someone with 23 years of experience routinely does this on bad spots. Is it now OK to leave in a middle group and track along the jumprun? Isn't that the same as not waiting long enough to give save separation? Let's say 2000' across the ground is a safe distance. You watch and wait. Good enough. Then because the spot is bad, you track 500' back towards the DZ. What did that just do to those 2000' of separation?

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We can all talk about the "one time in band camp..." scenarios. These are generally examples of jumpers not doing the right thing.

I didn't get the impression that what Chuck was describing was a one time in band camp scenario. He is not the only one who does this. My apologies Chuck, I don't mean this as an attack on you, it is just that your example illustrates what I am talking about. I keep hearing "given safe separation it should be no problem" and I agree with that. I just don't have any faith in the given here considering what I hear from people like you here and on virtually every DZ I have been to. "Track to the DZ and open high." I just can't see how someone can say track to the DZ and safe separation in the same scenario.

I do not have a problem with opening higher than planned when the spot is bad given the right circumstances, especially when it is something like 500 feet. I expect canopies at about 3000' at most DZs on most loads other than tandems and AFF, then 5or 6K is normal and they are usually last out anyway. 3500' will not even get my attention. I'll never even say anything about 4000'.

There are situations where opening a 1000' feet higher than what was planned is not a good idea as illustrated above.

alan

[Cajones 0]

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There are situations where opening a 1000' feet higher than what was planned is not a good idea as illustrated above.

When? Where? What guidelines are you using for determining when it is or is not safe to pull 1000' higher than planned? Are we still talking about "one time..." scenarios?

Also, I have serious doubts Chuck (Mono Uno) tracks on the line of flight into other jumpers opening canopies. It's just one of those skills you really focus on as a wingsuit jumper.

- Cajones

The laws of physics are strictly enforced.

[luis 0]

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We can all talk about the "one time in band camp..." scenarios. These are generally examples of jumpers not doing the right thing. Not examples of the majority, nor examples of why we should all pull at 1000 feet. Be a good defensive driver.

My 1/50 of $1... Cajones

To illustrate said above, here's my "No-shit-there-I-was" story
Couple of years ago I was stupid enough to jump with very minor (so I thought) cold. Apparently my sinuses were blocked and I discovered a few hundred feet after the exit what does that mean in combination with the rapid pressure change - absolutely horrible pain in the forehead. It was getting so bad, that I was actually about to pass out, right there in the freefall! Well, understanding that it's all about the rapid change in pressure, I decided that he best idea would be to pull immediately and thus slow down the descent (oh, and those replacement Cypres cutters a worth a few jumps ) ...but then I realized that I have no idea if there's anyone above me. Any kind of barrel roll was totally out of question - the pain was so bad already that I felt having tunnel vision, so I was happy just to have a somewhat stable body position.
Decided to hold it as long as I can and give a chance to the guys above me...pulled at about 5000ft - was almost blind by then

Well, I learned a few lessons about opening high, exit separation, and jumping with sinusitis since then

[nicknitro71 0]

There is a simple solution to all this:

A brid-man suit

Memento Audere Semper

903

[rhino 0]

OR... Turning the plane.. Not getting out of the plane in a bad spot to begin with..

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I will absolutely track back toward the airport and encourage others on my formation to do so if that is what it takes to land on. In doing so I will ALSO keep a keen lookout for my fellow jumpers who exited in front of me. I will deploy above them, always. In tracking back toward the people who exited before me I am not putting any person in danger for I am not blindly hauling ass. By pulling high, I didn't infer that I meant dumping higher than students or tandems.

If I am jumping a "one pass" plane at a "one pass" dropzone, if I am going to skydive, I better get out of the damn plane. If I am with a student and we are TOO long, I will demand that second pass (or a 180 if possible), but if I am at a boogie, then I am going to do what I have to do to make it back once I figure out where I am in the sky in relation to the dropzone and the groups before me.

These days, it's rare that I am not in a wingsuit if I am not hauling meat or doing AFF. That said, it's incredibly rare that anyone is behind me.

Chuck

[jdfreefly 1]

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I will absolutely track back toward the airport and encourage others on my formation to do so if that is what it takes to land on. In doing so I will ALSO keep a keen lookout for my fellow jumpers who exited in front of me. I will deploy above them, always. In tracking back toward the people who exited before me I am not putting any person in danger for I am not blindly hauling ass. By pulling high, I didn't infer that I meant dumping higher than students or tandems.

This is highly irresponsible...NEVER NEVER NEVER track towards other groups. You can not guarantee that you will see every one. Someone wearing a green suit in spring is going to be damn near invisible up there. White suit in winter, sunset loads, I notice in your avatar you are wearing sunglasses. My safety should not be a factor of your vision.

Also, you can't guarantee that you will have a clean deployment. You pull above someone, have a mal, chop and end up in their airspace trying to deploy your reserve. You have a canopy collision and guess what, you are fresh out of good parachutes. Not to mention that you have pretty well fucked up someone elses day because you did not want to land off.

I don't want to go taking on greenies, but dude, I can think of several "what ifs" that make this a bad idea.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[alan 1]

I'm glad your keeping such a keen look out while throwing everything we know about exit separation to the wind. You are skilled enough to pull it off too, but is that person with 100 jumps who follows your example going to be able to do that? And about always opening above the group you are tracking over, one of them may be reading this thread and be convinced it is OK to open high, it might catch someone with lesser skills by surprise.

I might also add, this is not just about freefalling into an open or opening canopy. We also have to consider canopy collisions after opening, that is also a part of the reason for exit separation.

This has gotten really interesting. We have gone from justifying opening high because of a bad spot to justifying tracking along the line of flight. I'm amazed.

alan