Samurai

[lippy 773]

I've got 430ish jumps and I load my blade-runner 150 @ 1.3. I'm getting better with my swoops, but that canopy is baffed and out of trim, time for something new. I demoed a Vision 150 and loved it, I'm waiting for the Katana to come out before I make my decision. Somebody told me to check out a Samurai, but when I looked at their site I saw something I'm not sure about. On their description of the canopy, under recovery arc, they say

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"Recovery Arc" describes the amount of time and altitude required for a parachute to recover to level flight following a radical maneuver. Although it is difficult to quantify this characteristic in a manner that would be useful, generalities can be very helpful when choosing a canopy. The Samurai falls somewhere between the Jedei and the Stiletto in it's aggression to recover from a dive. In other words, the Samurai will dive fairly aggressively immediately following an airspeed-increasing maneuver, but gradually pull out on it's own to a slowly-descending, high-speed flight mode. This design characteristic makes the Samurai very easy to swoop successfully, as you are able to pick up speed at a high altitude, and then wait for the right moment to level off with a bump on the toggles. Compared to canopies that pull you to level flight before you are ready, the Samurai is much easier to land, and swoops further across the ground.

Is the part about the canopy staying in a dive, then 'bumping' the toggles to return to level flight a good thing. My understanding of the ideal swoop is riding the recovery arc and planing out accross the ground before even touching the toggles. I've only successfully done that a couple times when I actually felt the plane and rode it before getting on the toggles, but it was a good feeling. Wouldn't having to 'bump' the toggles at the start of the swoop bleed off at least some speed as well.

It's very possible I just don't have a fucking clue what I'm talking about here, somebody who knows the canopy got any info?

I got nuthin

[PhreeZone 15]

Negitive arc is very common on higher proformance canopies. Canopies like the Stiletto will plane out on their own very rapidly after letting go of the riser. Canopies like the Sam, Velocity, FX, etc all stay diving after you let go. The rate of decent slows a lot, but they do not level out automatically like the Stiletto does.

Negitive arc is a really good thing as it increases the safety factor. It allows the pilot to start a bit higher and let the longer arc of the canopy provide a buffer zone if the pilot is too low or too high. Bumping the toggles alters the Angle of Attack of the canopy, as long as you don't hold the toggles down it won't slow you down at all, it just eliminates the negitive dive and transforms the AOA to a flatter one.

Combos of negitive arc and rear risers are the ultimate in long distance swoops. It lets you dive at a safer altitude, and transform to the rear risers to alter the AOA and AOI while keeping the speed.

Negitive arc is a good thing!

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[prost 0]

One point of clarification. Any of these canopies will return to normal flight without input, they just take longer to do it.

[Canuck 0]

Hey Roger,

First of all, the Blade Runner isn't baffed. I put 300 jumps on it, Bernie might have put 50 on it, and you have put, I'm guessing, about 200 on it. Out of trim quite likely, but not baffed.

Anyway, I haven't seen you jump for a while now, so I'll not pass any judgment on your landings or readiness to downsize (I just assume you are planning to downsize when you get a new canopy).

Regarding recovery arc and the infamous negative recovery arc. I'm jumping a Velocity 96 now, loading at 2.1. I guarantee if a hook that sucker at two thousand feet, by the time I'm ready to flare, it's back to its regular level of descent. Negative recovery arc is a crock of shit - super friggin long recovery arc - oh yeah, but not negative. And you're right, having to bump the toggles takes away from the efficiency of flying the canopy through the arc.

Demo lots of shit, be safe, don't get in over your head.

Canuck

[yurbai 0]

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The Samurai falls somewhere between the Jedei and the Stiletto in it's aggression to recover from a dive.

does this mean that Jedei has even longer recovery arc then Samurai??

[BikerBabe 0]

yes.

or, at least, mine does. Since every Jedei is slightly different, you might get a different answer from every Jedei owner.

Not that I'm a super swooper or anything, but I do notice the difference. I like it. I think it makes it much more 'intuitive' to land. I don't know how to describe it any better than that.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[lippy 773]

Pete,
When I pack that thing I don't have to lay on it...I can just slide my hands up and push all of the air out. Maybe it's just the South African ZP, but I took that to mean it was baffed. I'm not planning on downsizing, I was going to untill I demoed a Vision 150 and saw the swoops I can get at my wingloading. Plus there's a lack of accuracy tuffets down here.

How you liking the 96?

I got nuthin

[Canuck 0]

The ease of packing I would say is a combo of South African zp and a few hundred jumps on the canopy. If I recall though, that thing was easy to pack right out of the bag.

Good on you for not downsizing if you don't see the need. Try and get your hands on a Crossifre or Crossfire 2 also and see what you think. I still firmly believe they are the highest performing non-cross braced canopy on the market, and the nicest openers.

How am I liking my Velocity? Awesome!!! I don't want to say it's an easy canopy to fly because that would be misleading, but it feels so connected to you it almost anticipates what you want to do. It takes 100 % focus though - you have to fly through the openings, be hyper aware of traffic, and keep the controls smooth. The speed and distance of the swoops are just friggin stupid!!!

Canuck

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Crossfire2. You won't be disappointed.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[lippy 773]

I demoed a Crossfire 2 in Eloy...I definitely can't say I disliked it, but out of all the canopies I flew I liked the Vision the best. It opened nice, and I enjoyed what little flying I got to do, usually being first group out and doin' the old dump-n-run. I don't know if I can really say consistent is the word I'm looking for, as I only put 6 jumps on it, but my swoops were long by my standards for every jump, and I felt very comfortable from setup to touchdown.

I got nuthin

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Sounds like the Vision is for you then. You did the right thing. You demoed and found something that you like.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Is the part about the canopy staying in a dive, then 'bumping' the toggles to return to level flight a good thing.

Definately. I put 600 jumps on m y Stiletto 120 mostly at exit weights arround 195 pounds. There was no way to keep it in a dive and planing out high was rough on landings so I'd try to err towards the low side. Usually I wouldn't need to use any toggle for a while after planing out, although ocassionally I'd loose distance when I turned in too low and had to dig out a bit. It could have been ugly.

I've had my Samurai 105 for about 140 jumps @ 170 pounds and really prefer it now that I'm used to it. I can intentionally turn in high, let it level out as much as it will, and just drift down to ground level without loosing speed. A bit low from high still has me in a good position when I'm close to the ground. It's _much_ more user friendly when you're trying to have accurate long swoops and allows a bigger margin for error.

[diablopilot 2]

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. There was no way to keep it in a dive

While I will agree that a Stiletto have a very shallow natural recovery arc, I never had a problem diving them as long as I wanted. IMO it is one of the best advanced chigh performace canopies ever built and many of the people I see jumping other canopy types(crossbraced, and non crossbraced) could have benifited from more time under one.

One of the single most versitile, and well behaved canopies I ever have had the pleasure of owning was a Stiletto 120 (aprox 1.8 loading)

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[lippy 773]

It just popped into my head that, as I had no idea how common this flight characteristic is, there's a chance that the Vision had something similar. Has anybody had experiences with both, and know how they compare?

I got nuthin

[jumperconway 0]

Regarding recovery arc and the infamous negative recovery arc. I'm jumping a Velocity 96 now, loading at 2.1. I guarantee if a hook that sucker at two thousand feet, by the time I'm ready to flare, it's back to its regular level of descent. Negative recovery arc is a crock of shit - super friggin long recovery arc - oh yeah, but not negative. And you're right, having to bump the toggles takes away from the efficiency of flying the canopy through the arc.



The Stiletto after a dive will actually go into a desent rate of less than normal flight after a HP turn. I see it every weekend. HP canopies with a "negative recovery" arc will not (edit to add without toggle or rear riser input). I jump a 27 cell Xaos and it will definately not go beyond normal flight after a HP turn. The Stiletto will go to basicaly level (momentarily)flight on it's own where my Xaos won't!

[PhreeZone 15]

There are some canopies out there that will actually climb on their own after a speed building manuver. It used to be in vogue by a few top pilots to land with out touching a riser or toggle and just having the climb of the arc on the canopy to land with.

On a Stiletto I've experienced the canopy slowing down then having to accelerate back to normal flight speed. Thats positive recovery if you ask me...

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[jumperconway 0]

agreed!

[Canuck 0]

Semantics I guess...

I have most definately experienced un-initiated lift on Stilettos, even my Crossfire would sometimes do it after a 270. If we want to call that a positive recovery arc, I'm fine with that.

However, there is not a person on the planet that will convince me that a Velocity, VX, Samurai, etc. will not eventually return to its original flight path, speed, and rate of descent after performing a speed augmenting manoeuver. The term negative implies less than zero, or less than the starting point.

Canuck

[jumperconway 0]

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Semantics I guess...

I have most definately experienced un-initiated lift on Stilettos, even my Crossfire would sometimes do it after a 270. If we want to call that a positive recovery arc, I'm fine with that.

However, there is not a person on the planet that will convince me that a Velocity, VX, Samurai, etc. will not eventually return to its original flight path, speed, and rate of descent after performing a speed augmenting manoeuver. The term negative implies less than zero, or less than the starting point.

Canuck

OK agreed, The term negative recovery arc meaning extended recovery arc versus positive recovery arc, where a canopy will go to more than it's normal glide is the meaning.

[rhino 0]

Why are you jumping a Velocity now? How is the flight different than the Xaos27??

Rhino

[jumperconway 0]

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Why are you jumping a Velocity now? How is the flight different than the Xaos27??

Rhino

I was responding to another post. I'm still on a 79-27 Xaos.

[yurbai 0]

mine hav a recovery arc that is about 200-300 feet on 180 turn, is this about right or maybe it is not that big since I only load it 1.6?

[NeedToJump 0]

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mine hav a recovery arc that is about 200-300 feet on 180 turn, is this about right or maybe it is not that big since I only load it 1.6?

1.6 is a very high wingloading. I just a Stiletto 120 loaded about 1.45 and I start my 180 at about 400 feet. 200-300 feet sounds much too low for a canopy loaded at 1.6.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[yurbai 0]

that's exactly what I thought. I don't hook at that alt though. I hook about 500 with a 270 but with double fronts. i got those numbers when i was trying it at about 5000-6000. does this make difference?

[AggieDave 6]

That doesn't seem right.

I've been jumping a stiletto and had jumped a Heatwave, two of the shortest recovery arc ellips on the market and I don't think I ever did a 180 below 300ft and didn't have to dig a bit.

My loading is/was 1.7:1 on those canopies.

From what I understand, a Sam has a longer recovery arc then both of those, so I think you're either mistaken or you're *really* digg'n those out.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."