Tail Bounce on Front riser approach

[kremins 0]

Yesterday a friend was videoing some landings with my camera and after viewing the tape last night I noticed the tail end of my Sabre2 170 seems to be bouncing up and down when I am on my approach with double front risers pulled down. To me this does not seem right and I thought it might be because the brakes are set to tight and the trailing edge is getting pulled down when the front risers are but, I am not sure so I thought I would get the opinion of you all online before I made the adjustment to let the brakes out. Right now they are set at the factory marks. I uploaded the video to skydivingmovies.com and I will try and make a clicky.

Frontriserlandingtailbounce

edited: to try and fix the clicky url.

[SkySlut 0]

I would recommend lengthening your brake lines. PD typically sets their brake lines short. Bring it to your rigger and have them take a look at it. Without seeing it...I wouldnt be able to recommend how long and I am not familiar with the factory settings for the Sabre 2.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Not that I'm an expert or anything like that, but it sure sounds like your break lines need to be lengthened.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

How I figure out how far I need to let mine out is pretty simple. In full flight, with my toggles in my hands of course, I pull down my front risers towards my chest. If you can't pull them all the way to your chest without deflecting the tail and causing porpoising, then they are too tight. This, of course, assuming one wants to do riser dives. If you can't get them all the way to your chest, look up at the tail as you are pulling them down and see what point the control lines become taut. Look at where your hands are then in relation to your chest, then use that as a guage of how far the brakes need to be let out. Generally, I won't let them out more than three inches at a time. Be advised, though, that the amount you let out will be that much less you will have at the end of your flare. If you were finishing your flare around tit level then this isn't a problem.

Chuck

[kremins 0]

Thanks everyone

Thats what I thought, there is about 6 or more inches left on the brake lines to let out. I just wanted to make sure that was the right move before I did it.

[Hooknswoop 19]

The length of the steering lines can drastically affect how a canopy flies. High performance canopies are affected much more than lower performance canopies. All canopies should have some slack or a slight bow in the steering lines. If the steering lines are too short and pull down the tail of the canopy during full flight, even slightly, the canopy is flying in brakes. If the canopy is flying in brakes, it will not have as much speed to trade for lift during the landing flare. Over time the steering lines shrink as a result of friction from the slider during opening, as much as 6 inches in extreme cases. New canopies or line sets adjusted to have no slack in the steering lines will begin to fly in brakes as the control lines shrink.

To maximize the performance of your canopy it is necessary to understand the construction of the steering lines. The steering lines on a canopy are made of several parts. The upper control lines, usually four or five lines cascade or split at the top of the central control line and attach to the tail. The central control line attaches the upper control lines to the lower control line. The lower control line attaches from the finger-trapped loop (for setting the brakes) at the bottom of the central control line to the toggle. The lower control line is where your rigger can make adjustments.

If you do not use your front risers, adjusting steering line length is a fairly simple process. To check your control lines, pull one toggle down an inch or two while watching the tail of the canopy in flight. The tail should not move and the canopy should not turn. If it does, your lower steering lines need to be lengthened. Make small adjustments, no more than an inch at a time. This may require several adjustments. It is better to be an inch too long than an inch too short. Once you find the correct length, have your rigger finger-trap and bar-tack the lower steering line to eliminate the knot next to the toggle which can hang up on the guide ring. Periodically check the steering lines to see if they have shrunk and need to be lengthened again. Micro-line can shrink 4 to 6 inches or more over its life span. Vectran tends not to shrink with wear but is not as durable as Micro-line.

If you use your front risers, adjusting steering line length is more complicated. Having enough slack in the lower steering lines on a high performance canopy is more critical to how the canopy will fly. In a front riser turn you are pulling the toggle down a little with the riser and there has to be some slack to prevent pulling down the tail. If the tail of a high performance canopy is pulled down even a little when front risering, the riser pressure will be much higher and the recovery arc (the amount of altitude required to get back under the canopy) will be shortened. To check if the steering line is long enough, clear your airspace, do a full 360 degree front riser turn (keeping the toggles in your hands), and watch the tail of the canopy. As the speed increases, the drag on the control line increases and if there isn’t enough slack, the tail will be pulled down. You need enough slack so that the tail won’t be pulled down while pulling the toggle and the riser down at the maximum speed of the canopy. Another easy method of checking your steering line length is to compare the front riser pressure from the front riser 360 with the toggles in your hands to a front riser 360 without the toggles in your hands. It is important to have plenty of altitude and clear airspace before letting go of the toggles and front risering. Again, make small adjustments no more than an inch at a time and have your rigger finger-trap and bar-tack the lower control line once you have them adjusted correctly.

With the steering lines correctly set, your canopy will dive longer and faster, have lower front riser pressure, and you can get the most out of your canopy.

Hook

[BMFin 0]

Very usefull info ! Thanks !

[listo 0]

......spoken like a true genius! Would you reccomend to do the front riser comparisons above 3,500?

When I got my stiletto, I had to let out the lowers about 9 inches. I still need to let them out some more too. Good thing I have long monkey arms so I can land this thing. On the other hand.....I never let anyone else jump my canopy!

One day I am going to be able to pull those things all the way to my feet!

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[Cornholio 0]

That is great information. I am beginning to do more and more front riser turns (up high of course) and have noticed that "porpoising" effect on the canopy when I pull the front risers down about 4-6 inches. I will test it out the way you mentioned and have my rigger adjust them accordingly.

Thanks for the info - perfect timing.

Butthead: Whoa! Burritos for breakfast!
Beavis: Yeah! Yeah! Cool!
bellyflier on the dz.com hybrid record jump

[CanEHdian 0]

What does one do if/when he needs to continue lengthening the steering lines but is already near his/her comfortable arm length limit for the flare to shutdown the canopy?

Also, what about riser lengths? ...and how does one know what's best when ordering something new?

Thanks,
CanEHdian

Time's flying, and so am I...
(69-way, 108-way and 138/142-way Freefly World Records)

[SkySlut 0]

You may want to consider shorter risers...I have 18" and that seems to work just fine.

[PhreeZone 15]

Longer risers move the flare point up and shorter ones move it down lower. If you get longer ones you might not beable to reach the slider, and too short and you'll never be able to shut it down unless you take some steering line back in.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

Phree is right. If you cannot lengthen your steering lines any more, but still need to, then the only option is longer risers.

Hook

[relyon 0]

Quote

Phree is right. If you cannot lengthen your steering lines any more, but still need to, then the only option is longer risers.

Hook

I must be missing something. To my knowledge, the relative placement of the brake guide rings to the riser tops is the same. How does changing risers change how much extra steering line there is?
Why not simply lengthen the brake line loop-toggle distance?

Bob

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Phree is right. If you cannot lengthen your steering lines any more, but still need to, then the only option is longer risers.

Hook

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I must be missing something. To my knowledge, the relative placement of the brake guide rings to the riser tops is the same. How does changing risers change how much extra steering line there is?
Why not simply lengthen the brake line loop-toggle distance?

Correct, the guide ring is placed 4 inches from the top of the riser, this is standard. Changing to longer risers increases the distance of the guide ring relative to the jumper's shoulders, increasing the amount of steering line pulled down at full flare. The question was, if the lines have been lengthened to the point that increasing the length any more would result in the jumper not being able to flare enough, what is the fix if the the steering lines are still too short? The only option is longer risers. If the steering lines were lengthened without changing to longer risers, the pilot wouldn't be able to flare the canopy enough for landing.

Hook

[PhreeZone 15]

Whats chaning is how far you are away from the canopy. With 20 inch risers lets say 1/4 brake is right at your chin, if you tack on 18 inch risers it moves you closer to the canopy, and moves the 1/4 brake point 2 inches lower so its now at the base of your neck. If you would have but 22's on instead it moved the brake point to your eye level.

Where this comes into play is if you have to let out say 6 inches of brakes and you have 18 inch risers you might now be able to reach the front risers with out warping the canopy, but now you are not able to stall the canopy. Shorten the brake lines to stall the canopy and grabing the front riser might warp the canopy. Fix is to add on 20 inch risers, thats the same as moving the stall point 2 inches up, but your not changing the 6 inches of brakes needed to be able to not warp the canopy on a front riser grab.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[relyon 0]

Thanks for the explanations. Now I understand the point you're making, but I don't think longer risers is the only option. Wouldn't taking a wrap or two of the excess allow for full flare?

Bob

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Thanks for the explanations. Now I understand the point you're making, but I don't think longer risers is the only option. Wouldn't taking a wrap or two of the excess allow for full flare?

Only if the pilot wasn't using the fromt risers to generate additional/extra speed for landing. Coming out of a front riser hook and trying to take a wrap on the steering lines would be a good concept for a long career.

Hook

[relyon 0]

I use straight in front riser approaches (extra speed is practically a necessity with Lightnings) and brake wraps all the time. I just wrap before risering and leave it that way. I'm not trying to swoop through, and I suspect that the difference in efficiency makes all the difference.

Bob

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

I use straight in front riser approaches (extra speed is practically a necessity with Lightnings) and brake wraps all the time. I just wrap before risering and leave it that way. I'm not trying to swoop through, and I suspect that the difference in efficiency makes all the difference.

Right but if you wrap before you front riser, that defeats the purpose of having enough slack in your steering lines to prevent pulling down the tail while pulling down the front risers.

Hook

[PhreeZone 15]

>extra speed is practically a necessity with Lightnings

I've only got about a dozen jumps on Lightnings now and never had to increase the speed to get a good landing, is this since I'm only at about 1:1 on the canopy?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[faulknerwn 37]

Quote

>extra speed is practically a necessity with Lightnings

I've only got about a dozen jumps on Lightnings now and never had to increase the speed to get a good landing, is this since I'm only at about 1:1 on the canopy?

At some point you'll get tired of your feet hurting - especially in no wind. Extra speed is really a necessity on Lightnings to make landings bearable over the long haul :-)
W

[weid14 0]

Quote

Quote

>extra speed is practically a necessity with Lightnings

I've only got about a dozen jumps on Lightnings now and never had to increase the speed to get a good landing, is this since I'm only at about 1:1 on the canopy?

At some point you'll get tired of your feet hurting - especially in no wind. Extra speed is really a necessity on Lightnings to make landings bearable over the long haul :-)
W

those stinking Crew Dogs sound like a thundering heard when they all land, scares the crap out of me every time.

[relyon 0]

Quote

I've only got about a dozen jumps on Lightnings now and never had to increase the speed to get a good landing, is this since I'm only at about 1:1 on the canopy?

That and perhaps the line length. Heavier loading (1.4-1.8 - fairly high for a 7 cell) and shorter lines (8-8.5') make the flare timing trickier.

Bob

[parachutist 1]

Quote

Quote

I use straight in front riser approaches (extra speed is practically a necessity with Lightnings) and brake wraps all the time. I just wrap before risering and leave it that way. I'm not trying to swoop through, and I suspect that the difference in efficiency makes all the difference.

Right but if you wrap before you front riser, that defeats the purpose of having enough slack in your steering lines to prevent pulling down the tail while pulling down the front risers.

Hook

Hook,

In a CReW dive there are many occasions other than landings during which the slack will be advantageous: during approach to a formation when using those front risers, for example. During these maneuvers a Lightning pilot will not want the slack to be removed from brake lines... But then at the end of this dive, when setting up for a landing, the goal is different: A lightning pilot now wants to be able to plane out the canopy completely and use evey bit of flare that is avaialble from those brake lines.

Chris