How do you fly that fast!!!

[Hooknswoop 19]

"It takes more skill to fly a larger canopy to these extremes then it does to strap your self to a small elliptical canopy that when things goes good flies its self almost, but when one thing is bad... there goes your whole summer in a cast or worse."
I have hooked large canopies and small canopies, the smaller the canopy, the easier it is for me to hook it safely. Your'e right that smaller canopies are less forgiving, but they have a longer recovery arc and that makes them safer. It is difficult for me to hook my Safire 189 correctly, i have to start the turn very close to the ground and I have a very small window to start the turn at.
The larger the canopy, the slower you fly, and therefore gives you more time to react, but larger canopies also have shorter recovery arcs. Let's say, for easy numbers, you have to start the hook w/ in 10% of the ideal alitude, any lower and you crash, any higher and the canopy planes out too high/loses all it's speed. Let's also say I have to hook my Safire at 150 ft, that gives me from 135 ft to 165 ft, 30 ft of target window. My VX 60 I hook from around 800 ft, that gives me from 680 to 920 ft, 240 ft of target window. 30 ft vs. 240 ft of target window. So it is a trade-off between slow enough to give the pilot time and a large enough target window to give the pilot a chance at hitting it. I believe that if some one can't handle the faster speeds of a 1.4-1.6 (elliptical) wingloading, they shouldn't be hooking it. Get very comfortable with the canopy, then move to double front risers approaches, then carving 90's, etc. Like almost everything in skydiving, it is a trade-off. BTW, I don't hook my Safire anymore, too dangerous at that wingloading.
This isn't gospel, but just what I believe, subject to change.
Hook

[eames 0]

Quote

...smaller canopies are less forgiving, but they have a longer recovery arc and that makes them safer.

The truth of this concept is dependent on perspective. It would be a very dangerous for someone with 200 jumps that wants to get into high performance landings to read that and think, "well, I guess I should downsize 'cause that'll make me even safer." That mentality was wrong for me when I was at that point, and I still don't completely agree with it. You have to see it from the eyes of a jumper that's just finally fine tuning his basic landing skills and is now interested in high performance landings. He doesn't yet have the timing and skill necessary to start a given speed building turn within 10% of the optimum altitude. He probably doesn't even know what the optimum altitude is, for a given turn, for a given turn-rate, for a given density, etc., etc.. This doesn't mean that he can't start building speed for landing. And the fact that his canopy is lightly loaded and has a short recovery arc should be a small concern. A person definitely doesn't have to have a high wing loading to start learning to go fast. And any canopy progression that requires you to have a high wing loading and a large recovery arc to begin with, is dangerous. But you're right, if you're going to do tight, steep turns that require absolutely perfect timing, you'd better have a canopy with a long recovery arc to save your ass. But that logic is so fucked up that it pisses me off! Building speed for a swoop landing is not about cranking out a 270 as fast as you can then laying on the double fronts and relying on the recovery arc to keep you safe.
I'd make a wager that you can nearly achieve the maximum attainable speed on, say a Spectre 190 loaded at 1.2:1, with no more than a 90 degree turn and with creative use of double front risers. A canopy control student could work up to that under supervision in X jumps and have an awesome background to start bigger, faster things on smaller canopies.
I wouldn't recommend for anyone to try low turns, precisely timed to the recovery arc of a big canopy; it's too dangerous. I would recommend a turn in which you are constantly capable of changing the rate of turn and the rate of dive e.g. asymmetrical double front risers throughout the entire turn. After perfecting strait in double fronts, of course. Then you can work towards the perfect the timing for using mostly one front riser and doing steeper turns to increase speed, working from smaller turns to larger turns (90 being the most you'd probably need on a larger canopy, if done correctly).
You should start with small turns and a big canopy. Many jumps. By the time you're ready to jump something smaller, you should already know how to fly that canopy safely, and land it perfectly, using many inputs in a variety of conditions. And if you're downsizing to get a larger recovery arc, that's great if you're doing it because you want a canopy that's capable of building more speed, but if you're doing it because it's "safer" then you're already in way over your head. A person can be taught to do safe, high performance landings, on almost any modern parachute, regardless of size. Fast low turns are not necessary and they're dangerous. Small, heavily loaded canopies are dangerous. When you start out, you need to fabricate the large recovery arc by using both front risers. By the time you've progressed enough to be jumping the pocket rocket, your timing and skill should be such that you don't need the large recovery arc for safety purposes (though it's a great to have that buffer, nobody's perfect).
Sorry this is so long, and sorry if I sound like I'm about to snap-- I haven't eaten this morning.
Jason

[Hooknswoop 19]

...smaller canopies are less forgiving, but they have a longer recovery arc and that makes them safer.
“The truth of this concept is dependent on perspective. It would be a very dangerous for someone with 200 jumps that wants to get into high performance landings to read that and think, "well, I guess I should downsize 'cause that'll make me even safer." That mentality was wrong for me when I was at that point, and I still don't completely agree with it. You have to see it from the eyes of a jumper that's just finally fine tuning his basic landing skills and is now interested in high performance landings. He doesn't yet have the timing and skill necessary to start a given speed building turn within 10% of the optimum altitude. “
Like I said, “I believe that if some one can't handle the faster speeds of a 1.4-1.6 (elliptical) wing-loading, they shouldn't be hooking it. Get very comfortable with the canopy, then move to double front risers approaches, then carving 90's, etc.” If someone is just fine tuning their basic landing skills, they shouldn’t be at a 1.4:1 wing-loading, much less thinking about hook turns. I didn’t say “50 jump wonders should buy canopies that put them at a 1.4-1.6 wing-loading and start hooking and they will be safe because of the long recovery arc.” To quote your last statement, “By the time you've progressed enough to be jumping the pocket rocket, your timing and skill should be such that you don't need the large recovery arc for safety purposes (though it's a great to have that buffer, nobody's perfect).”
“He probably doesn't even know what the optimum altitude is, for a given turn, for a given turn-rate, for a given density, etc., etc.. This doesn't mean that he can't start building speed for landing. And the fact that his canopy is lightly loaded and has a short recovery arc should be a small concern. A person definitely doesn't have to have a high wing loading to start learning to go fast. And any canopy progression that requires you to have a high wing loading and a large recovery arc to begin with, is dangerous.”
Again, agreed. I never suggested a canopy progression requiring a high wing loading and a long recovery arc. A large percentage of jumpers under high performance, loaded up canopies are in over their head. I think jumpers should learn good canopy skills from jump #1 (believe me, most don’t). I think skills learned under a Manta 288 trying to go fast don’t translate well to smaller canopies. I think hook turning a Manta 288 isn’t very safe.
“But you're right, if you're going to do tight, steep turns that require absolutely perfect timing, “
If they required absolutely perfect timing, I would have been dead long ago.
“you'd better have a canopy with a long recovery arc to save your ass.”
The long recovery arc doesn’t save my ass, it increases my safety margin (because I can handle the canopy in the first place) and allows me to land the canopy the way I do. At those speeds, if I had to hook it at 75 ft (like a Manta) I couldn’t react and make small adjustments in time.
“But that logic is so fucked up that it pisses me off! Building speed for a swoop landing is not about cranking out a 270 as fast as you can then laying on the double fronts and relying on the recovery arc to keep you safe.”
Again. I do not rely on the recovery arc to keep me safe, it does increase MY safety margin.
“I'd make a wager that you can nearly achieve the maximum attainable speed on, say a Spectre 190 loaded at 1.2:1, with no more than a 90 degree turn and with creative use of double front risers.”
I would take that bet. I can make my Safire dive harder and generate more speed w/ a hard front riser turn to the double fronts. It is all about trading altitude for airspeed. The more altitude I can trade (longer dive) the more airspeed I can generate. Swing out from under the canopy allows for a longer dive. At some point, the “G” force created in the turn elimintate the advantage of swinging out from under the canopy, but that is from a pretty hard turn. Again, I do not recommend someone go buy a canopy and just “Go Big”. Those words I have too often seen take the place of “Hey ya’ll, watch this”, followed closely by “Call 911!”.
“A canopy control student could work up to that under supervision in X jumps and have an awesome background to start bigger, faster things on smaller canopies.
I wouldn't recommend for anyone to try low turns, precisely timed to the recovery arc of a big canopy; it's too dangerous.”
We are in complete agreement here.
“I would recommend a turn in which you are constantly capable of changing the rate of turn and the rate of dive e.g. asymmetrical double front risers throughout the entire turn. After perfecting strait in double fronts, of course. Then you can work towards the perfect the timing for using mostly one front riser and doing steeper turns to increase speed, working from smaller turns to larger turns (90 being the most you'd probably need on a larger canopy, if done correctly).”
And again here.
“You should start with small turns and a big canopy. Many jumps..”
I disagree. Anything more than double fronts on a big canopy is too risky, in my opinion.
“By the time you're ready to jump something smaller, you should already know how to fly that canopy safely, and land it perfectly, using many inputs in a variety of conditions.”
I agree.
“And if you're downsizing to get a larger recovery arc, that's great if you're doing it because you want a canopy that's capable of building more speed, but if you're doing it because it's "safer" then you're already in way over your head.”
If you can handle the speed and recovery arc, it is safer. Indy 500 cars are incredibly fast and difficult to drive, at least it seems that way to me. But for a professional driver that can handle it, they are very safe cars. Is an Indy car safer than my For Ranger, not for me it isn’t, but for someone that can handle it, it is. Same for canopies, if someone can handle the canopy, a longer recovery arc gives more margin for error.
“A person can be taught to do safe, high performance landings, on almost any modern parachute, regardless of size.”
Try to teach someone to perform high performance landings on a Manta. I would never do this. Or a Sabre 230. The recovery is just too small. If someone wants to do double front riser approaches under these types of canopies, have at it, but any sort of turning approach is a bad idea in my opinion.
“Fast low turns are not necessary and they're dangerous. Small, heavily loaded canopies are dangerous.”
Jumping out of airplanes is dangerous and completely un-necessary. Kind of the pot calling the keddle black here. Small canopies and hook turns have the appearance of being dangerous because of the easy access to small canopies by un-prepared jumpers. The argument that most low-turn fatalites are made by “D” licensed, and therefore “experienced” holders is bogus. I’ve seen jumpers w/ 1000+ jumps on 150 ish canopies decide to get a 100is X-braced and hammer in. 1000+ jumps didn’t give them the experience to handle the small canopy.
“When you start out, you need to fabricate the large recovery arc by using both front risers.”
The recovery arc is what it is. You can get the most dive out of a canopy with the front risers, but recovery arc is set by the canopy and wing-loading.
“By the time you've progressed enough to be jumping the pocket rocket, your timing and skill should be such that you don't need the large recovery arc for safety purposes (though it's a great to have that buffer, nobody's perfect).”
I can (and have) hooked large canopies, but it is definitely more dangerous than hooking a small canopy. You made my point for me, the longer recovery arc of smaller canopies affords the jumper a “buffer”, or safety margin.
I think you mis-understood my previous post. I recommend that if someone wants do learn hook turns, learn everything they can and get very, very comfortable under an elliptical at a 1.4-1.6 wing-loading before getting into hook turns.
Hook

[PhreeZone 15]

Heres the thing... If I was to get a canopy at a 1.6 wing loading, we are talking I'd need something 107-120ish sized. Thats a little pocket rocket around our area. With winter and the shortend jumping season I could'nt stay current enough on it to stay alive and uninjured. Living where the climate allows for a more constant temperature and favorible weather allows people to beable to progress to a smaller canopy in theory faster since they see similar conditions every time. In the course of a week I went from jumping in 75-85 degrees and no wind to 48-50 degrees and a 5-12 wind and sleet. Under a new smaller canopy thats a lot to learn with the increased airspeed from the canopy.
I know people that are loading the same sized canopy as my 1.2:1 on a 150 at up to 1.7:1 on the same sized canopy. They have plenty of recovery arc and any modern canopy, square or rectangular, should have enough recovery arc to keep a heads up jumper in control of the situation. Advanced Diablo pilots do 180-270's sub 200 feet sometimes. Its the design of the canopy. Some canopies have a short recovery arc no matter the loading and other have a Long arc even at light loadings. The Vengence comes to mind here...
Point being, big and light is'nt a bad thing if the canopy is designed with an arc, and if its not thats still not a bad thing. It just means you have to learn the canopy better then the rest of the pilots on the doubles before moving up to 15's then 30's then 45's then 90's over the course of dozens and dozens amd dozens of jumps.
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[Hooknswoop 19]

"Heres the thing... If I was to get a canopy at a 1.6 wing loading, we are talking I'd need something 107-120ish sized. Thats a little pocket rocket around our area. With winter and the shortend jumping season I could'nt stay current enough on it to stay alive and uninjured. "
Then don't get one. If someone can't jump often enough to learn enough to downsize, then they shouldn't be learning hook turns. Hook turns are not for everyone.
"Living where the climate allows for a more constant temperature and favorible weather allows people to beable to progress to a smaller canopy in theory faster since they see similar conditions every time. In the course of a week I went from jumping in 75-85 degrees and no wind to 48-50 degrees and a 5-12 wind and sleet. Under a new smaller canopy thats a lot to learn with the increased airspeed from the canopy."
I think it has more to do w/ currency, conditions change quite a bit, even in TX FL and SC.
"I know people that are loading the same sized canopy as my 1.2:1 on a 150 at up to 1.7:1 on the same sized canopy. They have plenty of recovery arc and any modern canopy, square or rectangular, should have enough recovery arc to keep a heads up jumper in control of the situation. Advanced Diablo pilots do 180-270's sub 200 feet sometimes. Its the design of the canopy. Some canopies have a short recovery arc no matter the loading and other have a Long arc even at light loadings. The Vengence comes to mind here..."
I think a 270 degree hook at sub 200ft is asking for trouble. Too little margin for error. Like I said, recovery arc is determined by the canopy and the wingloading. Long and short recovery arcs is subject to interpretation.
"Point being, big and light is'nt a bad thing if the canopy is designed with an arc, and if its not thats still not a bad thing. It just means you have to learn the canopy better then the rest of the pilots on the doubles before moving up to 15's then 30's then 45's then 90's over the course of dozens and dozens amd dozens of jumps."
Big and light is a good thing. Big, light, and hook turns is a bad thing. I don't know of any big canopies that have a long recovery arc, especially at a light wing loading. By that logic, you could say a VX is a good canopy to start learning hook turns on, it "just means you have to learn the canopy better then the rest of the pilots". I disagree.
Hook

[Zennie 0]

There are a lot of good points in here, but Hook's point about the dangers of hard hooking a large canopy are valid. Hook can correct me if I'm wrong here, but by large what we're really talking about are lower wingloadings.
I started learning hooks on a Sabre 150 loaded about 1.1. To get it to plane out for a nice surf I had to start the turn at about 150 feet. It took a buttload of jumps working my way down to that altitude and when I finally got there it was pretty damn scary.
I'm loading my Jedei 136 at about 1.3. I start my hooks at about 300-350 feet to get the same plane-out. I have lots more control and reaction time in that 300 feet than I would under the 150.
Now that said, I think what Hook is also driving at is that you need to use a little common sense to get there. I've put around 120 jumps on my Jedei and am just now getting to where I feel like I have a decent handle on it's performance characteristics. I did what Hook recommended. First got a feel for how it landed with straight in approaches. Then moved to double fronts. Then to 90 turns, now I'm at 180s.
You don't just start snap hooking a canopy right out of the gate, regardless of recovery arc. But, you do have more margin for error with a longer recovery arc. That said, you shouldn't go to the smaller canopy to reap the benefits of the larger recovery arc until you've milked your current canopy for what it's worth. And I think what Hook is saying here is that mastering double fronts on a larger canopy is pretty much milking that canopy for what it's worth... but you should master it first.
Just my $0.02
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[Hooknswoop 19]

Thanks Zen, but isn't that what i said? :-)
Hook

[Zennie 0]

Quote

Thanks Zen, but isn't that what i said?

Yeah. I said what I said cuz you said, then he said.... Oh nevermind.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[PhreeZone 15]

>If someone can't jump often enough to learn enough to downsize, then they shouldn't be learning hook turns. Hook turns are not for everyone.
Neither are HP canopies. Thats why even thought I'll make 200-250 jumps in the season this year.... I won't go tiny on a main. Its easier and safer for me to do my 45-90's to doubles then it is for me to get a smaller canopy at this point. I lost my desire to keep up with the Jones on canopies a few weeks ago.
>I don't know of any big canopies that have a long recovery arc, especially at a light wing loading
I think part of this is also confusing the meaning of "big". A large canopy to me is something like a 190, not a 288 Manta. We have some jumpers with a couple of thousand skydives that have proven to me that a 190 can have as long of a revocery arc then a 150 with the same person under it if it is flown properly. Thats the key.. properly. Most jumpers never use the full arc, they cut it off buy doing too fast/quick of a turn. A Carving/diving turn can recover longer on a biger canopy then a fast snap riser on a smaller canopy.
>VX is a good canopy to start learning hook turns on
I know of a few people that if they want to load a canopy to the 1.4-1.6 you want them to, they are limited to crossbraced or a limited selection of canopies. So they might be starting out on a FX.....
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[Hooknswoop 19]

">I don't know of any big canopies that have a long recovery arc, especially at a light wing loading
I think part of this is also confusing the meaning of "big". A large canopy to me is something like a 190, not a 288 Manta. We have some jumpers with a couple of thousand skydives that have proven to me that a 190 can have as long of a revocery arc then a 150 with the same person under it if it is flown properly. Thats the key.. properly. Most jumpers never use the full arc, they cut it off buy doing too fast/quick of a turn. A Carving/diving turn can recover longer on a biger canopy then a fast snap riser on a smaller canopy."
Me under a Safire 149 has a longer recovery arc than me under a Safire 189 all other things being equal. Being flown properly the recovery arc will be longer on the same type of canopy if a person downsizes. If I fly a 190 then a 150, the 150 will have the longer recovery arc of the two.
>VX is a good canopy to start learning hook turns on
I know of a few people that if they want to load a canopy to the 1.4-1.6 you want them to, they are limited to crossbraced or a limited selection of canopies. So they might be starting out on a FX.....
I didn't say a VX is a good canopy to learn on BTW. I don't understand how in order to get a 1.4 to 1.6 wing loading someone would have to jump a cross braced canopy. If some one is very small, I would recommend a lighter windgloading, say 1.2 to 1.4 to learn hook turns at.
Hook

[jdhill 0]

Quote

I know of a few people that if they want to load a canopy to the 1.4-1.6 you want them to, they are limited to crossbraced or a limited selection of canopies. So they might be starting out on a FX.....

how small are these people? A 105 lbs person would have an exit weight of 120-125 lbs. w/o weights... 89 s.f. canopy (a crossfire for example) @ 125 lbs is 1.4:1... now add weights (which they probably need unless your dropzone is full of 105 lbs girls) and you can get larger canopies or higher wing loadings...
having said all that... if your DZ has such a short season that a hard jumping person makes less than 300 jumps a season, is that sort of wing loading or hook turns a good idea for anyone?
http://www.aerialfusion.com

[rhino 0]

I have to chime in here...
When I put my knees in the dirt under my Triathlon150 loaded at 1.2 I took a step back..
Hook among others CHEWED my ass about hooking a canopy that wasn't made for hooking. They beat into me what a longer recover arc would do for you and how hooking a canopy like that is suicide. At first I fought it out of embarrassment.
I took a step back and realized that what they were saying was in fact true.
WHAT I HAVE FOUND is that the response from a high performance canopy like a crossfire109 is ten times quicker than a Triathlon150 loaded at 1.2. It only took a few jumps to get use to the speed and really learn to take advantage of it. More speed.. quicker response from the canopy.. You can control EVERYTHING that canopy does when loading a hp canopy. IT is SO MUCH easier and I feel SO MUCH safer loading a Crossfire109 than jumping the Triathlon150 learning hook turns.
Hook couldn't be more correct in what he is saying. I took his advise. It only made sense considering I've never seen anyone hook a canopy like he does. I figured why argue with someone that perfectly hooks a vx60 from 1000 feet and has a perfect safety record.
As far as currency and small canopies are concerned. Hook is right. If you aren't comfortable don't get a small canopy. I didn't jump for 6 months and I was perfectly comfortable and capable when I got back in the saddle for the 1st time this season.
The precision that the crossfire allows me to fly is much SAFER than the sluggish I HOPE THE CANOPY will respond on a timely fashion that not loading a canopy will give you.
I am yet a swoop embryo.. I know shit.. But I know what I feel under canopy. And I know Hook is right on..
When in doubt.. Don't hook.. Rhino
Blue Skies .....

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

OK, after much deliberation, I feel the need to step in and clarify a few things:
First, Derek (hooknswoop) is a "hooker", which means he makes snap riser turns to gain the speed he likes for his swoops. While this technique works best for him in his dropzone swooping, it is not what the great majority of professional swoopers do. We, almost as a rule, make tall, carving dives from 180, 270, or 360 degrees, staying away from the pendulum effect as much as possible.
Second, Derek jumps a main quite a bit smaller than the great majority of professional swoopers do. last year the average competitive pro wingload was between 2.2 and 2.3, this year it will definitely be lower. Jim Slaton has upsized to either a 77 or a 79 for this year; T.J. Landgren just got a new 92. Nate Gilbert is loading at 1.8 this season. I load at 2.2, which is the highest of anyone on my team (and I finished the season shorter and slower than my two teammates loading at 1.9). Bottom line here is that smaller is definitely not better in the eyes of the people who take swooping serious enough to get out there and compete and set records. Luis "Luigi" Cani made big headlines for his antics under the VX-46, but let me tell you, that was just for the purpose of collecting data and making some PR points for the Icarus project; he never jumps anything smaller than a 65 in competition and my guess is he will be upsizing this season. There are exceptions to every rule, as in the case of Mikeal Stevens (Precision Xaos competitor) who had a 52 made for Speed rounds. Mikeal is also one of the odd competitors (along with Andy Anderson) who throws wild 360/540 and 180/360 combos in competition. While it entertains the crowd and certainly builds speed, it is very "hit or miss" and terribly dangerous. I love those guys, but they are definitely on their own frequency and have hit pond and land very hard in competition.
I, like fellow competitor Jason Eames, completely disagree with Derek's statement that people don't have any business learning performance (or "swoop") landings under larger, lighter loaded canopies. I learned to swoop, or "turf surf" as we called it back in the day, under a 150 (which was considered absolutely tiny then). The reason for that was that was that is the canopy I was currently jumping when I saw Tom Piras and the rest of The Deland Gang doing it before the world meet that year. I watched them land all day and then mocked them. From that day on (1988 I think), my friends and I experimented with every canopy we could get our hands on. Today, while the canopies are smaller, better constructed, and certainly more aerodynamic, the basic techniques I use are exactly the same as I used then. Will you surf as far under your Hornet 170 as you will 500 jumps later on one 50 square feet smaller? No, but you can definitely make your turn look the same and get fantastic gains in the process. Smooth carves build speed linearly and that additional speed translates directly to distance gains.
As for the issue Derek has with much shorter recovery arcs: he finds that parachute more dangerous to hook because it brings him closer to the ground and shortens his reaction time. Well, of course it does using his "snap" technique! To get anything out of a snap riser turn or a toggle hook, you have to time it almost perfectly to get any semblance of a stylish landing. Too low and you pound in; too high and you are cruising along like a moron, ten feet off the deck. He gets around his technique by jumping a 60 square foot main and the extremely long recovery arc it affords him. It is for this reason that I promote work up high, making all varieties of turns and checking my altimeter for altitude loss and "feel" as it comes around the corner. Precision swooping is all about getting your parachute on plane at a specific three-dimensional point in space; usually inline with a pond or air-blade course and just low enough to the ground to either make a clean entry to a gate or start dragging your toe along the water. At your DZ it might just be to set up to swoop "the beer line." Every jumper will have a different altitude and turn style to get that job done. The recovery arc is different on my two competition mains, though they are exactly the same size, therefore I make entirely different turns on them when I swoop. Watch any competition video of me and you will catch me flying through the entry gates in Speed rounds still holding one front riser and carving like mad. I let us sooner on my other main due to it's longer recovery arc, but I don't go a foot farther in distance on that main. My entry speed is identical, so it translates into a very-similar swoop. The best way to avoid the reduced reaction time Derek discusses is to ease your way into swooping. When you get to easy 90 degree carves you will start really getting the feel for your main and how it is going to react coming out of a turn from front riser input. Do not be disuaded by naysayers just because you are not jumping a hotrod canopy at a "performance" wingload. On that same note: absolutely do NOT downsize or attempt to swoop out of vanity. There is no rule requiring you to do so and you will only make an ass out of yourself if you repeatedly pound yourself into the ground trying to impress the girls (or guys) on the DZ. While tiny little rigs look cool on people who can skydive their asses off, they draw criticism from those same skydivers when seen on the backs of people who clearly cannot handle what what is contained within them. Some "grown up" people go to major DZ's and see young guys out there ripping it up under sub-100 mains and say "that guy can't have the experience to be jumping that thing", but they don't stop to find out that the kid in question has 4000 skydives over the course of two or three years and lives on the DZ. People with 1000 jumps in 20 years probably don't need to be jumping a VX 74, nor do young kids with 100 skydives and a bulging wallet and the ego to go along with it. The fact of the matter is that more people die from botched "hook" turns than they do from ANYTHING else we do as skydivers. Even the very best canopy pilots in the world pay the price. I know of at least four PPPB tour competitors, all but one ranked higher than me, who have broken legs or ankles since December. This is not something to be taken lightly. It is for that reason that I STRONGLY recommend learning under larger, more lightly loaded mains; even if they don't meet most people's idea of "proper."
I think everyone of consequence has now said his piece, so let's get on to something different.
Sincerely,
Chuck Blue
Team Atair
member, PPPB association and two-year pro competitor
My webpage HERE

[Yoshi 0]

When learning to swoop my advice is to start really slow. I currently have 220 jumps and have progressed a little faster than most would advise. last august I was at the richmond boogie landing as usual with a fairly steep 180 front riser. that particular landing almost proved to be my last. always make sure that your airspace is clear and make sure that you can think on all levels (even all aspects you wouldnt usually think of) such as another canopy in the way, sudden wind direction change, turbulence, or even the jitters and not wanting to commit to the turn. when I struck the ground at about 40 mph-luckily I had an angel on my shoulder. I saw the ground comming and dug the doggles as if I were pulling myself out of quicksand. spectators said that after the first impact with the ground I could have cleared a car on my bounce. needless to say it was something I wasnt ready for and I have since toned down my landings. dont move too fast. start with streight in double riser pulls to gain speed. then do about 20 45 degree turns and then 90 and so on. hooks are fun and definately a crowd pleaser when done right, but the best speed comes from a long carving turn.
dont risk anything too soon. make sure you are ready for any pop up obsticles before committing to anything drastic
yoshi

[ramon 0]

You do have an angel on your shoulder. I had (past tense) a friend who didn't bounce as high as you and had a lot more jumps. and modesty.
Don't 1. "I have to hook every jump" this will kill you deader than Ceasar if you don't take an out.
Don't 2. "I'm really going to hook it this time". Showing off will do it too.
Don't 3. "The swoop lane is just a little farther over there"...target fixation..will make you low
Don't 4. "I always do right hand hooks"... one day if you don't preplan your landing you may have to turn towards an obstacle and if one thing goes wrong,you plow or you collide.
rule. 1 plan your hooks and outs on the ground when you see the wind direction.
rule 2 if the wind changes or things are not right...turn early and take an out (or early swoop)..taking a turn low or cutting another jumper off just to get to your intended landing area is shitty, rude, and will not get you any respect only comments about when you will biff (I've been there).
ramon

[GrumpySmurf 0]

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(which they probably need unless your dropzone is full of 105 lbs girls)

If it is, that's gonna be my new home DZ!!!

• Quote

[f1freak 0]

here, here....
I started learning under an old sabre 170. I'll tell you that a few time that is what saved my ass (god did i hit hard). You can have a bunch of fun and feel the rush under a larger canopy when you learn the correct technique (long carv's baby.....)
Have fun....
I want to be just like Truman Sparks when I get big...

[tbostick 0]

A longer recovery arc is not necessarily a "forgiving" feature. If we're talking about being able to build up speed at a higher altitude and maintain it, then yeah, I guess so. But a longer recovery arc requires input if you initiate a little low; it doesn't "pull you out" on it's own as quick. When you have a long recovery arc, get that canopy solid and get beneath it with altitude to spare. If you have to dig into the toggles hard, you'll still be comming dang near straight down for a bit. When it aint right, don't make the turn; ride it long, walk away.

[Hooknswoop 19]

“I started learning under an old sabre 170. I'll tell you that a few time that is what saved my ass (god did i hit hard).”
I believe that had you waited until you were a better/more experienced canopy pilot under a canopy more suitable to high performance landings, you wouldn’t have hit at all. Yes, a low turn under a 170 is painful and even worse under a smaller canopy, but not hitting the ground doesn’t hurt at all.
"A longer recovery arc is not necessarily a "forgiving" feature. If we're talking about being able to build up speed at a higher altitude and maintain it, then yeah, I guess so. But a longer recovery arc requires input if you initiate a little low; it doesn't "pull you out" on it's own as quick"
The shorter recovery arc "doesn't "pull you out" on it's own as quick" meaning in order to hook it, you have to initiate the turn lower. A longer or _shorter_ recovery arc requires input if you initiate it a little low.
I looked up some stats and 4 PPPB competitors have almost completely “High Performance Canopy” jumps (# Jumps/# High Performance Canopy Jumps):
3700/3500
7000/6900
3000/2800
7000/6900
These guys are very aggressive and got started on high performance canopies early in their skydiving career. Only 100-200 non-high performance canopy jumps each. They have also suffered injuries.
My personal standard is, ”If you don’t stand it up, it didn’t count”. Anybody can go buy a tiny canopy and hook it downwind in 60-mph winds and set a new world record for the longest swoop. So the record goes to guy willing to take the biggest risk of getting injured. I can’t compete with that attitude. I am not willing to accept a high degree of risk in my landings. I don’t wear moto-cross pants to protect myself on landing, because I don’t fall down.
This thread has developed into 2 discussions:
1) Is it better to “snap” hook or carve?
My opinion: Do what works best for you and you can do consistently. Be safe.
2) Is it a good idea for the average skydiver to start hook turning, either carves or snaps, large canopies?
My opinion: No. I have jumped large and small canopies. I have hooked, snap and carve, large and small canopies. I feel that the short recovery arc of larger, lightly loaded canopies is simply too short and a small mistake will result in hitting the ground or planing out too high and having an “ankle burner” of a landing. Large canopies can teach a jumper a lot about how to fly canopies that can be applied to smaller, higher performance canopies later.
The vast majority of hook turners do not wear moto-cross pants and hook it downwind in medium+ winds for more distance, landing on their butts intentionally for that extra few feet. They do not pop up their canopies 20+ feet in the air to come down on a target for points. The majority of high performance canopy pilots swoop at their DZ’s on weekends and have fun. They swoop for the pure thrill of surfing across the ground at high speed. Can canopy pilots learn from pilots that attend competitions, especially the ones that do well? Yes, of course. The same as a 4 way team can watch AZ Airspeed’s videos and learn. But a new or even experienced 4 way team will probably turn more points if they don’t attempt some of the incredible moves Airspeed pulls off.
There are a bunch of outstanding canopy pilots out there, not all of them go to competitions.
Hook

[rhino 0]

Very well spoken Hook.. As usual I agree with you..
Rhino
Blue Skies .....

[prost 0]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I started to learn hook turns under a stilleto loaded at 1.56 to 1. After I go t the bug I started working my way down to a crossfire 199

[prost 0]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I started to learn hook turns under a stilleto loaded at 1.56 to 1. After I go t the bug I started working my way down to a crossfire 199 loaded at 1.97. i found that longer turns were easier to achieve under the heavier loaded canopy. A 270 under the stilleto was difficult to dial in just right while I got it dialed in great under the crossfire in a short amount of time. I have since went back and tried to hook some bigger canopies. I will not hook them more than 90 degress. I think if you are going to try and learn under a large canopy keep to 45 or 90 degree turns at the most. These can be performed with relative safety but any more is dnagerous under a lightly loaded canopy.
William

[prost 0]

Wanted to add one more thing. This doesn't mean that you should downsize because it will be easier. It is only easier after you have developed the skill set required for the smaller canopy. If you do not have the skill required and you downsize the results can be disasterous. Learn on the bigger wings and then start working your way down in canopy size while working your way up in amount of turn.
William

[freeflyguy 0]

This thread is scary.
Get real, If you don't have the skill necessary to swoop a canopy loaded at 1.2, Then you don't have the skill necessary to swoop one loaded at 1.6 or above.
The original question was "How do you fly that fast?". One good answer is "Understand the canopy you fly, explore what it will do in any situation, get training and practice."
To answer that question with "Get a heavier loaded canopy" is nuts.

[Hooknswoop 19]

"This thread is scary.
Get real, If you don't have the skill necessary to swoop a canopy loaded at 1.2, Then you don't have the skill necessary to swoop one loaded at 1.6 or above.
The original question was "How do you fly that fast?". One good answer is "Understand the canopy you fly, explore what it will do in any situation, get training and practice."
To answer that question with "Get a heavier loaded canopy" is nuts."
I am not saying, downsize and start hooking it. I am saying I don't think people should start hooking canopies until they are very, very comfortable under a canopy w/ a long recovery arc loaded at between 1.3 and 1.6. And even then starting slowly, doulbe fronts, carving 45's, carving 90's, etc.
So to answer the original question, "How do you fly that fast!!!", you get used to the speed the same way Indy car drivers do, start slow and build up. Not all, in fact very few, drivers are capable of progressing to the point of being a competetice Indy car driver.
If hook turns is your goal, downsize as appropiate, learning all you can about each canopy you jump, but hold off on anything more than double front riser approaches to landing until under a suitable canopy. Practice "mock" hook turns at altitude. This is my opinion, no more, no less.
Hook