Stilletto Progress...

[freeflir29 0]

Well...I have been jumping the Stilletto for about 20 jumps or so now and I'm still getting to know it. The worst thing so far is how fast the riser pressure builds. On my PD 190 I could hook at 500-600 Ft and then hold it in a double front riser dive for 2-3 seconds and then make a nice smooth recovery to a beautiful swoop. I can't hold double fronts in that Stilletto after even a 90 deg front riser turn for shit. The pressure just builds like crazy. Combine that with the EXTREMELY flat glide of this canopy and what do you get. What I "feel" like are VERY low turns. I was really paranoid about altitude loss with an eliptical and it's really screwing me up. I did 3 jumps Monday and given that there were only 3 people on 2 of those loads and 4 on another I had plenty of room to play. I'm trying to work my way down to turning lower but I still have a healthy respect. Thank goodness the Stilletto does dive a little longer than the square or I would have to make 90's at about 30 ft...LOL Oh well.....I guess I just have to grow the cajones a little bigger...."It's all about the BOOBIES!"

[Engovatov 0]

Just put extra 30-40lb on you and do pull-ups.. ;-)

[airdrew20012001 0]

What I have done with my stilletto is start my carving 90 by going the opposite way I want to swoop then carve it back. You can alter the amount of "wrong way" turn depending on how high you are. You end up carving more than a 90 but keep the ground speed up. One piece of advice: do a carve instead of a violent hook then you can use the steepness of the hook if you are too high or low. You get the same speed without having to whip it and it gives you more time and a larger margin of error.
Drewfus McDoofus

[Spy38W 0]

So what are your feelings about downsizing and going from square to elliptical at the same time?
--
My poor rig, all alone with no main...

[Hooknswoop 19]

Try front risering your Stiletto w/o holding onto the toggles. Of course try this w/ enough altitude to get your toggles back (2000+) & w/ no traffic around. Then try a front riser turn w/ the toggles in your hands. If the riser pressure is higher w/ the toggles in your hands, then your steering lines are too short.
Most canopies I see people doing front riser tunrs under have too short of steering lines. After lengething them, they comment on how much lighter the front risers are, how much longer the recovery arc is and how much faster the canopy is.
Hook

[LawnDart21 0]

My .02, (disclaimer, only try this up high at first....LOL) anyways, if your having a tough time with riser pressure, it is because your canopy is trying to fly forward, while you are trying to make it dive with riser input. The easiest thing to do is to decrease the forward movement by giving the canopy quarter or up to half brakes before hooking it. If you slow the forward sleep by going into quarter or half brakes, then hooking it, the riser pressure will be lower and the canopy will dive harder and faster because it will have less forward movement resistance. Try it out, you'll totally dig it, just do it way high at first. Good luck, stay safe.
"I live to EFS"
Tom

[prost 0]

I don't like this technique. The object of performing a front riser movement is to gain speed. The speed that you lose going into brakes now has to be regained. As soon as you regain this speed, the riser pressure is just as hard as it was before. All this does is increase the amount of turn you need to create the same forward speed.
William

[LawnDart21 0]

While I see your point, I disagree. It is the resistance of the canopy due to horizontal movement (speed) that increases riser pressure, and the horizonal speed loss you mentioned as negative result (due to a brake before hooking) is more than regained in vertical speed during the riser dive and plane out. Alls I'm saying is that a riser has pressure (high or low) on a hook turn, becuase your fighting the force of the canopy's forward flight when making a hook turn. If you lower the forward speed, by 1/4 or even up to a quick half brake flare, you are slowing the forward speed of the canopy, hence making the riser hook and subsequent dive easier (riser pressure) and faster, you can get a steeper dive, which will build up more speed. I'm sure there are pros and cons to doing this, and I'll be the first to say, I only 470 jumps, I'm not an authority, but I got this info/input originally from a top swooper who flies a 68 sq ft VX loaded at 2.5, and that is the technique he uses. I'm only loading my canopy 1.92, so I'll concede he probably gets better performance with that type of dive, but it does work pretty darn well, and has some amazing results when done correctly. Okay, that's my story! Safe swoops!
"I live to EFS"
Tom

[foos 0]

I have recently starting using this technique. It has helped me quite abit. Not only am I able to swoop further it also helps with my accuracy. Everything is going a little slower and makes judging the setup easer.
foos

[flyhi 24]

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What I "feel" like are VERY low turns.

Ain't it the truth. When I went from a Saber to a Stiletto and couldn't believe how much lower I had to start the turn. My first gauge was literally tree-top level. Recently went from the Stiletto to a Vengeance. Right now it appears the height to start the hook is about the same. The riser pressure is, I believe, as high on the Vengeance as the Stiletto. Really have to hold on tight to do a 360, and have only done it up high. Nothing for a landing yet. Tried a slow, carving 180 last week, and felt like the riser was getting ripped out of my hand. But damn it is fun. Rock on!
flyhi
"To understand Mankind, you must look at its two root words; Mank and Ind."

[MrHixxx 0]

Hey Clay,
I am going to have to support Prost on this. Any toggle input is recovered with a diving canopy... Initiated too low, you make the pages of Parachutist. 3 broken femurs at my DZ agree last season that: Velocity = lift, No velocity = splat. Keeping your inputs to front risers allows you to bail out of a turn into brakes (if you turn to low) without the canopy having to dive further to recover... Of course, the brake lines must also be long enough to not curl the tail when you use the front risers... Correctly initiated, front riser turns from full flight will yield more speed than a braked turn and front riser. It is safer and more efficient.
I say stay with what you are doing. Perhaps shift a little weight to the outside legstrap as you initiate the turn. Moreover, the more you jump the canopy the more your confidence will build for applying front riser pressure which may be part of the issue to. I remember being a bit intimidated on my first 50 elliptical jumps, which certainly effected how much input I applied through the risers...
Also, talk to people in Eloy (I remember you posting that you were going there soon)... Almost all the staff at Skydive AZ are incredibly capable Stiletto jumpers and are very approachable.
best regards, Jon
"Sous ma tub, Dr. Suess ma tub"

[RichM 0]

Perhaps shift a little weight to the outside legstrap as you initiate the turn.
Do you mean outside? Wouldn't that work against your control input? Am I swooping wrong at the moment? :)
Rich M

[freeflir29 0]

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So what are your feelings about downsizing and going from square to elliptical at the same time?

No big deal at all. The size change made no difference IMHO. I went from a square PD F111 to ZP eliptical. It's really a totally differen't canopy. The glide angle on that Square was probably 45 degrees down or so in full flight and calm winds. It's FAR less than that on the Stilletto. It took some definate getting used to at first. I went probably 100 Ft or more long on my first two landings just because of the increased glide angle. The forward speed was also pretty noticeable but not really scary at all because you come in so much flatter. It's about 1000% more forgiving of improper flair height because the wing is so efficient. You can flare way too high and just ride it down. Of course this is with the brakes set where I like them. REALLY LONG. I mean I have ZERO line left over after tying one square knot and one half hitch to secure the toggles. They are almost a little too long. It swoops nice but I can't quite do a quick shut down if there is no wind. I like it loose though. It would probably scare the shit out of someone that flies them at factory settings...LOL. Lengthening the brakes gave the canopy a completely new personality. The first couple flights with them set too short I figured out what people meant when they called the Stilletto "twitchy" If you were making a toggle turn there was a definate point in the control range where the turn RAPIDLY increased. Once I lengthened the brakes the entire control range was very smooth and proportional to toggle input. On this canopy anyway, you'll definately know if the brakes are interfering with riser turns. Any interference from the brakes causes some pretty healthy bucking. Since I left my large belt buckle on my other pants I try to avoid this phenomenon.
I have been told a few times about using brakes and turning a little the opposite direction to lighten riser pressure but I haven't really taken the opportunity to use it much. I'm sure it works well though. I have used a variation of this when I make a hard toggle turn to final. Then let it recover...and right when it gets to it's slowest point and about to dive again I pull down on both front risers and dive it for landing. Makes for a decent little swoop. Probably just about as far as I could swoop my 190 after a 270 hook....LOL. I will say this about my learning process so far. EVERYTHING I learned hooking my Square 190 has applied to elipticals. Sure...it's a new canopy that has radically differen't characteristics but it's still a wing. It turns, dives, recovers, and flares....just a little differently than I was used to. It's an adjustment to the new parameters but the "rules" haven't changed at all.
The openings are definately a whole new story. I was used to pitching and then "sitting up" in the saddle as soon as I felt the canopy coming out of the bag. With the Stilletto, if you want an on heading opening, you have to do NOTHING. Let go of the pilot chute and then just lay there. Go into a "student boxman" and then let it stand you up. Thats really the secret of eliptical openings. Do nothing.....LOL
"It's all about the BOOBIES!"

[prost 0]

This is the technique that I use. It will do two things for you. First your riser pressure will be lighter. Second it will make your recovery arc longer so that you will build up more speed.

Yes it will work against your turn. The object is not to turn faster but rather to dive longer to build up more speed. Then if you find yourself a little low you can shift your weight to the inside to bring the canopy around faster.
William

[polarbear 1]

Using light brakes before initiating a riser turn lowers the speed of the canopy, which lowers the riser pressure AT THE BEGINNING OF THE TURN. As the speed is built up, the riser pressure will retun to normal. The difference is that the riser is already down, you just have to hold it there. You don't have to fight against that pressure to get the riser down.
Unless you do a very short duration dive, the speed lost during the brake application will be regained. With any speed-inducing maneuver, you have to let the canopy dive for a while to build up speed. No dive time=little (if any) gained speed. By the time you are going a billion miles an hour I never found that shifting in the harness changed riser pressure. To me, shifting in the harness changes the rate of turn and dive, as well as the length of the recovery arc.

[polarbear 1]

Hi, Clay. Glad the Stiletto is going well. I wanted to respond to two points:

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The size change made no difference IMHO.

Am I right in thinking that you have not flown a PD 170? If so,it is impossible for you to decide how much of the difference is due to size. I think most people would agree that size does make a difference; one size smaller OF A GIVEN DESIGN will fly faster and respond quicker. If you downsize and change design, there is no real way of telling which differences are due to design.

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It's about 1000% more forgiving of improper flair height because the wing is so efficient.

I must press that "forgiving" is not the correct word to use here. The Stiletto is more efficient, so if something isn't quite right, the pilot has a better "tool" with which to fix the problem and still get a graceful landing. However, it requires that the pilot use that tool correctly-he must recognize the problem, decide on the correct control input to fix it, and then execute that input. I would contend that if you flare a PD 190 a little too high, and ride it in, it will give you a softer landing than would a Stiletto 170 flared too high. Thus, the PD 190 is more forgiving.
By no means am I trying to bash you, I just think that an unprepared canopy pilot might get the wrong idea from your post and decide that they need a "more efficient" (ie smaller, higher performance) wing to fix their lack of landing skill.
I would agree, though, that provided you know what you are doing, more lift makes it easier to land. After I started swooping, it seemed harder to make a natural speed landing. However, the same amount of screw-up on a natural speed landing will likely hurt less then on a high-speed approach.

[freeflir29 0]

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I think most people would agree that size does make a difference; one size smaller OF A GIVEN DESIGN will fly faster and respond quicker

Yep!! It's just that "SOME" people were freaking out that I was downsizing 20 SQ/FT and going to a ZP eliptical all at once. "SOME" thought that was too much. In my mind the two designs are night and day difference so the actual size of the canopy didn't really matter.

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I would contend that if you flare a PD 190 a little too high, and ride it in, it will give you a softer landing than would a Stiletto 170 flared too high

That has NOT been my experience so far. If I in any way slowed down that PD 190 due to flaring too high, correcting for wind with toggles, hooking too high, whatever.....My landing was going to suck. Sliding on my ass because there was no flare left. The Stilletto...It seems like the thing will just hang in the air even in deep brakes. I have had an occasion or two when I let up the risers too high, and hit the end of the recovery arc so low that if I let it fly it would dump me on my face. In that split second I chose to just flare and pray. Slowly mind you...just enough to keep it from diving forward. That damn canopy almost seemed to hover and let me down ever so gently. The slow speed flight is nothing short of phenominal compared to an F 111 square. IMHO it is FAR more forgiving because of the superior slow speed handling. Thats just my experiences so far...
"It's all about the BOOBIES!"

[freeflir29 0]

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However, it requires that the pilot use that tool correctly

Never a truer word spoken. This is NOT a student canopy. If you can't land a square well you sure as hell don't need to be on a Stilletto!!!! "It's all about the BOOBIES!"

[Spy38W 0]

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Yep!! It's just that "SOME" people were freaking out that I was downsizing 20 SQ/FT and going to a ZP eliptical all at once. "SOME" thought that was too much. In my mind the two designs are night and day difference so the actual size of the canopy didn't really matter.

Thanks, I was thinking of downsizing/going to a light taper in the future (probably in around 50 or so jumps), I think I'm having second thoughts now (all these 'firsts' have caused me to put on 10 pounds), guess I'll have to wait and see and demo.
--
Words I hate: Streamer, Horseshoe, Baglock...

[polarbear 1]

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Yep!! It's just that "SOME" people were freaking out that I was downsizing 20 SQ/FT and going to a ZP eliptical all at once.

.
About the time I bought my old Heatwave 170, another jumper on my DZ bought a Stiletto 150. He was about my size and was downsizing from another Heatwave 170. He was really surprised by the difference...he kept telling me how much more responsive it was, how much faster it was, and so on. I became very cautious of going on to a 150 design. 100 jumps later, I worked up the nerve to fly a Stiletto 150, and it was no big deal. The reason is because I had been led to believe it would rock my world and kick my ass. I was expecting a lot more; while the 150 was more responsive, it wasn't a kick in the ass. I suspect that may have happened here.
As for the "SOME" of us who recommended you not take such a big step, I am glad we have been wrong (thus far ). I don't believe it is ever prudent to recommend to a low time jumper to make such an aggressive change. While it is certainly true it can be safely done, many low time (even many high-time) jumpers simply haven't learned the skills necessary, and/or they don't have a safe mentality. I would feel terrible if I blindly told a 100-time jumper to by a Stiletto at 1.3 and he promptly broke himself.
Oh, yeah, I still contend that a pilot with less skill will get better landings from a PD 190 than from a Stiletto 170. The Stiletto has more potential, but the pilot has to know how to use it correctly.

[billvon 2,400]

> IMHO it is FAR more forgiving because of the superior slow speed handling.
> Thats just my experiences so far...
My definition of forgiving is a canopy that will allow you to walk away even if you screw up. A Stiletto 190 is far less forgiving than a PD190 if you, for example, flare then "stick out your hand to break your fall." One will plop you on your side; the other will slam you into the ground and break your arm.
Sure, if you don't do that, it will land you more softly than a PD190. But if you have to be a better canopy pilot to avoid injury, the canopy is less forgiving.
-bill von

[freeflir29 0]

I'm with you guys. It is far less forgiving of idiotic pilot inputs than a square canopy. Flown properly a Stilletto gives you many more options to get yourself out of a jam.
"It's all about the BOOBIES!"

[PhreeZone 15]

It also gives you more chances to get into said jams......
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[Jumperpaula 0]

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The reason is because I had been led to believe it would rock my world and kick my ass.

Im truely enjoying these threads on the Stilletto.
I landed in some unstable air this weekend and handled it much better than I have in the past.
I know I can master this beast, so keep the good information coming.
Rockin my world..yes. Kickin my ass-not yet.
Fly Your Slot !

[Jumperpaula 0]

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It also gives you more chances to get into said jams.....

Today, new DZ, walked the landing area, looked a aerials. Went 2nd group out. Once under canopy I was disoriented and couldnt see a windsock. I followed the pattern of the first jumper to land and ....crosswind. But I flew that bitch (oh, was I typing out loud? ) I flew that baby and used every ounce of flare and quickly stepped out the rest....sweet. I think we are starting to communicate... the canopy and me..that is. She is submitting....ya think?
Paula must've been drinking Patron. She's not really herself.