Milo 0 #51 May 9, 2002 QuoteI believe that it is an unfair statement to say that they are alike, and insulting to the quality and image that PD has worked for so long to create. Yes! It is insulting to the image PD has worked to create!What if it is true? What if the image is false? What if their manufacturing processes really are inferior? So far, the only defenders are the people who apparently bought that 'image'. Dan's statements remain unchallenged by either manufacturer he compared his processes to.You might say this isn't a forum to 'Challenge' other companies. I disagree, but the ultimate authority there is Sangiro. This is an open forum where any company or customer can state their beliefs and attempt to back them up with facts. Dan's facts stand unchallenged by any data from the other manufacturers. I guess that makes them true, or true enough that his competitors are willing to let them be stated, unchallenged, in a public forum.milo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #52 May 9, 2002 I think it's a legitimate metaphor. He wasn't attacking the quality of PD's canopies; it's just an anology with another business that mass-produces their product. I can't tell the difference between a Micky D's breakfast biscuit and one my mom made. In fact, I might like the Micky D's a little better cause it was faster.And for the record, I like McDonald's. Except for that deforestation stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #53 May 9, 2002 If you're asking me, I dunno.I flunked HomeEc in junior high ;) Now I am stuck eating McDonalds Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #54 May 9, 2002 What if it is true? What if the image is false? What if their manufacturing processes really are inferior? So far, the only defenders are the people who apparently bought that 'image'. -------------------Then it should be proven wrong through factual statements.-------------------You might say this isn't a forum to 'Challenge' other companies. -------------------If you read any one of my other posts, you will see that this is not at all what I am saying, and that I encourage discussion and education.--------------------------------Dan's facts stand unchallenged by any data from the other manufacturers. --------------------------------If you are stating fact, there is no way for it to be challenged. What I have been referring to the entire time, as I have stated many times, are the subjective comments that are not necessary.----------------------------------I think it's a legitimate metaphor. He wasn't attacking the quality of PD's canopies; it's just an anology with another business that mass-produces their product. ----------------------------------There is a significant difference between mass producing, and producing a hell of a lot. PD produces a hell of a lot of canopies, just as Sunpath makes a hell of a lot of containers. Altico, on the other hand, who makes the Dolphin, mass produces containers. They are sitting on the shelf, waiting to be pieced together and shipped. I don't feel like this is slander, because this is their advertised way of doing business, it's no secret. THAT is mass production, more along the lines of fast food. I would still consider it inappropriate, though, should someone from a container manufacturer get on here and state such.---------------------------------In fact, I might like the Micky D's a little better cause it was faster.---------------------------------Taste and quality are not necessarily the same. I have stated that I like the taste of McDonalds, and eat there from time to time. At the same time, though, I cannot say that I consider it to be quality or healthy. ----------------------------------------I find it very offensive that anyone would say McDonalds suck. They have been around a very long time and are the standard that other fast food places try to achive.----------------------------------------True. The comparison was not kept within the genre of fast food, though, which would have been completely different. The metaphor showed PD to be the fast food quality in the world of restaurants. Now, if Dan meant to say that he believes Atair to be like Wendy's, that's different, because that identifies the genre in which we are comparing.-------------------------------------------The message has to put accross to people like him and the only way is to compare with PD and say why this or that is just as good as or better then PD products.-----------------------------------I am trying to figure out a new way of saying this, since nobody seems to get it. Again...comparison is good...support comparison...which is better, though (same premises, different conclusions):1. fact2. fact3. fact4. factconclusion - Atair is better than PD1. fact2. fact3. fact4. factconclusion - PD is worse than AtairComing from the competition, I do not believe that the second conclusion has any place in any comparative statement or advertisement.I have stated my opinion, and you have yours. If this was a solitary statement, I think I would consider it a petty arguement. This is not a one time thing, though, and I hate to see it continue. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #55 May 9, 2002 Well, I've been to PD's manufacturing facility. I've seen their cutting tables, and the way it used to be done (hot knife with a template). I've seen how they line canopies, and what kind of QC they go through. I was impressed. the cutting table can hold much tighter tolerances than hot knifing. I dont' work for PD, but I can attest that their manufacturing processes are first rate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #56 May 9, 2002 QuoteYes. What he chose was what would be considered by most everyone in the world to be one of the lowest, if not THE lowest quality food available to man. That's your impression of McDonands. I don't think of it the lowest quality food available to man, but rather the standard by which all other fast food is measured. Some is better, some is worse, but like it or not, they are the standard. Sound kind of like the PD of the parachute industry? I think it does.Quote1)I don't believe that PD makes the worst quality canopies possible.And apparently neither does Dan. Otherwise he wouldn't have said that PD make average to good quality canopies.Quote2)Statements like this should not come from a competitor. So, if I had said this it would have been OK? That's certainly not fair and it's a double standard if I've ever seen one.It sounds to me as if you're reacting on the same Blind Faith that Dan mentioned in his original posting. Someone says that PD isn't the industry leader or that they don't make the worlds best canopies and you automatically assume the worst. Rather than take the statement at face value you chose to read things into it that clearly aren't there. My $0.02.-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #57 May 10, 2002 QuoteSo, if I had said this it would have been OK? That's certainly not fair and it's a double standard if I've ever seen one.I can't speak for everyone on this, but I think a few of us would be less skeptical of the comment (or the motives behind it) had it been said by someone who doesn't stand to gain or lose financially based on what they say about a companies product. I don't think I could be more blunt than that.It wasn't the information that was called into the question (by me anyways), just the manner in which it was presented - it had a *SLIGHT* tinge of 'confrontation' to it. When I see that from a manufacturer about a competitor, I 'clam' up and the comments go in one ear and out the other. I am rather curious still see why Dan feels Atair's production technique is better - I still wish to learn what makes a good canopy fab process and what makes an average or poor one. This way I know what to look for in the future, and what the right questions are to ask to get a feel for great/good/avg/or poor?More education, less competition Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Milo 0 #58 May 10, 2002 QuoteIf you are stating fact, there is no way for it to be challenged. No, facts and ONLY facts can be challenged. Opinions are only as good as the source. IF Dan's company doesn't use the procedures he mentioned, someone who has witnessed his operation can challenge it. No one has.If, PD or Precision are not using an inferior process, as Dan alleges, someone who is familiar with their processes can challenge it.No one has.So, until someone else with the authority of actual knowledge of the manufacturing practices of PD, Precision and Atair canopies comes forth, I have to believe Dan is speaking the truth, for he is unquestionably a representative of a canopy manufacturer.milo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #59 May 10, 2002 That's your impression of McDonands. I don't think of it the lowest quality food available to man, but rather the standard by which all other fast food is measured. Some is better, some is worse, but like it or not, they are the standard. Sound kind of like the PD of the parachute industry? I think it does.----------------------------Refer above to my statement about comparison within genre.----------------------------So, if I had said this it would have been OK? That's certainly not fair and it's a double standard if I've ever seen one.-------------------------------No, it is not a double standard. I don't believe that subjective comments are admissable (sp?) into an arguement on the part of a competitor. That goes for anyone. A double standard would be to say that Dan cannot say anything like that about PD, but if I worked for Sunpath, for example, it would be ok for me to make a subjective statement about another competitor. That is a double standard. What I have said is that that kind of subjectivity discredits anyone after making what may be a perfectly legitimate arguement, regardless of who makes it.------------------------------------It sounds to me as if you're reacting on the same Blind Faith that Dan mentioned in his original posting. Someone says that PD isn't the industry leader or that they don't make the worlds best canopies and you automatically assume the worst. Rather than take the statement at face value you chose to read things into it that clearly aren't there. -------------------------------------A) I do not jump PD mainsB) I have worked in the industry for the past 3 years and do know a thing or two about different companies, their manufacturing processes, and their business practices...I would not call my motivations to purchase one product over another "blind faith". C) I don't necessarily think that PD makes the best canopy in all cases. I will recommend different canopies from different manufacturers to different people. I am not reacting to him inferring that they are not the industry leader...I am responding to the method by which it was presented, and he has continually presented his arguements up to this point, regardless of who the arguement was against.D) Just because you don't see something does not mean that it is "clearly not there". I'm done.Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Milo 0 #60 May 10, 2002 QuoteI can't speak for everyone on this, but I think a few of us would be less skeptical of the comment (or the motives behind it) had it been said by someone who doesn't stand to gain or lose financially based on what they say about a companies product. I don't think I could be more blunt than that.I think Dan is posting because he thinks he makes the best product on the market.I hope every manufacturer thinks they each make the best product on the market, regardless of profit.I wish other manufacturers would post here to try to tell me why their product was best.milo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cloud9 0 #61 May 10, 2002 Well I think that it was forgotten completely that Dan was not posting to slam PD or any other manufacturer. But posting in direct response to another thread that stated. If it's not PD then its Sh*%. Trying to provide food for thought about blind faith and why its not the best answer to your canopy choices Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GrumpySmurf 0 #62 May 10, 2002 QuoteI think Dan is posting because he thinks he makes the best product on the market.Yup. We ALL know that one He's definitely got the easiest packing one - I managed to stuff one into the bag in 10 minutes in a temperature and humidity controlled test lab at the office - cold and low humidity on a smooth floor, no problems. Impressive. QuoteI hope every manufacturer thinks they each make the best product on the market, regardless of profit.I hope so, else it's time to be very scared of any manufacturer who doesn't. I certainly don't want the Ford Explorer of canopies. QuoteI wish other manufacturers would post here to try to tell me why their product was best.I would rather they told me what makes THE best parachute in the world, in thier opinion, without resorting to mentioning competitors by name. If I want marketing hype, I can go to thier webpage, look at every second page of Parachutist, or talk to them at a booth at a boogie. Oh well, can we agree to disagree? Slight aside:Here's what one of PD's competitor's/partners - Big Air Sportz - says about PD's fab process:"PD’s reputation for manufacturing top quality products is unparalleled. Customers that were wary about a new company were soothed by the quality assured by the PD assembly line, with its multiple layers of checks and its long history." I guess this is Brian Germain's opinion on it? They're a canopy manufacturer? *shrug*Still, no one has answered the question - how do I spot an excellent stitch pattern and how do I spot a mediocre one? I would love to have a checklist of little things to look for on a canopy to see if the manufacturer is cutting corners or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #63 May 10, 2002 Looks to me like everyone has said what they have to say - at least once. Can we move on to something else now?Thanks.pull & flare,lisa---On the other hand...you have different fingers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GroundZero 0 #64 May 10, 2002 I have one question for Dan and everyone else who has posted and read this thread...Quality is simply determined by an oversew? What limits determine an oversew? (overlapping, a start/stop/restart with the sewing machine). Why is this a negative quality? Is this a safety issue or simply one of aesthetics?Quality is a very personal issue. Everyone wants to hold highly their own craftmanship. We have been manufacturing parachutes for almost twenty years with many of the same seamstresses. While these seemingly quiet, unassuming women may seem meek, I can tell you truthfully that they are ultimately proud of their individual work. Each person signs the Quality Control forms as the work is completed. With respect to the "oversew"... over many years of manufacturing primarily FAA governed TSO'd canopies, we determined long ago that oversewing a seam is not only acceptable (and our FAA quality inspectors and engineers agreed) that an oversew may well be structurally preferable to "rework". Specifically with zero perosity material, rework leaves needle holes in the silicon coated fabric that IS degrading to the base material. If a rework is required in zero-p material, we recut new fabric and replace the piece. (yes, I have seen rework on zero-p fabric on other manufacturers canopies.)I have seen the highest quality manufacturing techniques and processes demonstrated by EVERY manufacturer. Design from everyone is unbelievable, (look at where we were only 5 or 10 years ago!).There are some incredible choices out there... try them all... and choose your favorite. Each manufacturer is proud of their products, and justifiably so... you must decide which YOU prefer.Chris(Precision Aerodynamics, Inc.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #65 May 10, 2002 Great post. Thank you.Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites scottbre 0 #66 May 10, 2002 QuoteOk I have a question. Lets say you are 5 inches from the end of the seam and you run out of thread. Ok so you take all the stiches out and start over. Now you have a piece of nylon with a whole bunch of holes then you put the material back together and restich. So now you have 2 sets of holes for the same seam, cause it's next to impossible to put those holes exactly back on top of one another. How does that effect the durability of the fabric, meaning with the extra holes does that leave a seam that could potentially fail or not really the seam itself, but the extra holes along the seam? Aside from cobaltdan's original post, this is the only other worthwhile thing said in this thread. So I wanted to try to bring it up again, and I am specifically interested your views on this, cobaltdan, since you consider it a superior manufacturing aspect to restitch a whole seam if you run out of thread before the seam is finished.In an argument, you can never prove you're right. The best you can do is prove that they are more wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites polarbear 1 #67 May 10, 2002 I think my question was worthwhile...groundzero addressed it but I would like to hear cobaltdan's answer...Why is one continuous seam better than overstitching? That isn't supposed to sound flip...I just don't understand why one is significantly better than the other. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #68 May 10, 2002 QuoteI can't speak for everyone on this, but I think a few of us would be less skeptical of the comment (or the motives behind it) had it been said by someone who doesn't stand to gain or lose financially based on what they say about a companies product. I don't think I could be more blunt than that.Totally agree, but nobody's talking except manufacturers. Why? Nobody (or very few people anyway) KNOW the differences between the manufacturing techniques of different manufacturers. I don't know if he's an expert on it, but what if Bill Booth would comment on canopies and Dan would switch to container issues? That would work for me. I'm happy to get any info I can from anywhere I can. When one manufacturer speaks about another's processes, I would like to know how they know that information though. Dan mentioned PD's and Precision's stitching. How do we know he didnt go on a tour of PD 10 years ago, saw what they do, and later heard precision has the same techniques? We have no way of knowing. However, I do know that manufacturers (outside of skydiving) care more than anyone what their competitors are up to. Last summer I worked for a major jet engine manufacturer. I KNOW that some of what they did was reverse engineering a competitor's parts. Manufacturers learn from their competitors. I bet nobody knows more about whats going on at GM than Ford. Why not listen to them? Sure, we have to keep in mind Ford wants you to buy their cars so they'll only tell you what makes their's better, but that doesn't mean we can't get valuable information about both their cars and GM's.Know what I mean?Dave http://www.skydivingmovies.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #69 May 10, 2002 WHEW!!!BOOBIES!!!!!"It's all about the BOOBIES!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #70 May 10, 2002 From what it looks like, Grumpy was referring to a comment in the thread, not the entire thread itsself. (*but I think a few of us would be less skeptical of the comment (or the motives behind it)*).I have not argued against, and have not heard anyone argue against the involvement of manufacturers on these forums, and the obvious benefit they bring in to us less informed. This is probably the 7th post, at least, that we have had, specifically making an arguement why we should have input from manufacturers in the forums...the point has never been argued, that's not the issue.Unless anyone has something additional to throw in, I would like to humbly suggest that we leave this thread and move on. Anyone else agree? (if you do, don't answer that...sort of defeats the purpose of the question) :-)Thanks for the discussion.Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cobaltdan 0 #71 May 10, 2002 i havent read all the replies (29) and am running out the door to go jumping.i just wanted to post a quick note as i think this post has gone off heading.my views on mcdonalds is that they are the most successful food chain in history. why? excellent business strategy: the majority put their needs in the following order of importance: low price, fast delivery, consistancy, quality, design.i am an engineer first, a businessman second, and have always prided myself as not being part of the majority, so to speak. as such i adopt the less successful, but more personally rewarding for me, strategy of placing our order of importance reversed from the above. sincerely,-dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #72 May 10, 2002 Dan,Thanks for your response to the thread. In response to your statement, though, regarding McDonalds' order of priorities, low price, fast delivery, consistancy, quality, design. I think that PD has proven that their designs are solid (even if they are not as technologically advanced in some cases). The Spectre is arguably the best 7 cell canopy on the market. The Stiletto remains a staple of the high performance canopy market. The Sabre, while being old technology, was replaced by the Sabre2, which is turning out to be extremely popular on its own merits. Personally, I don't like the Vengeance, but many people do, and can offer reasons for their preference, aside from "it's a PD". I have several friends who jump the Velocity, and are extremely pleased with it. Their quality is without anymore faulter than other manufacturers, and in many cases is better. They have proven to be consistant, if you look at the ratio of canopies that have problems in their manufacturing to the number that come out without said issues (i.e. - opening hard, diving on opening, etc.). They do not offer the fastest delivery times on the market, and they certainly are not the least expensive. Although I think that some people are closed minded to alternatives, just like you said, because of a certain "blind faith", people are starting to see that they do have other options, and we are encouraging them to examine them closely. That does not mean, though, that I think that PD deserves to be overlooked simply for fear of acting upon the blind faith, or that I would consider it a bad decision on anyone's part to purchase a PD canopy because that is what they like.I still maintain that this is an unfair comparison.Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,406 #73 May 12, 2002 >Dan's facts stand unchallenged by any data from the other manufacturers. >I guess that makes them true, or true enough that his competitors are willing to> let them be stated, unchallenged, in a public forum.There is a third option - no competitors care enough to get into a posting war about it here. Do not overestimate our importance. We're just a website that has some forums, not necessarily the venue where jumpers get all their information when buying new gear or the venue where gear disputes are settled.This is something you come to realize after posting a while. If you post something controversial, and no one responds, either:1. You're so right no one can dispute you or2. No one cares enough to dispute you.I find that 2) is true far more often than 1).-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Milo 0 #74 May 13, 2002 QuoteThere is a third option - no competitors care enough to get into a posting war about it here.Well, Chris Martin from Precision Aerodynamics said:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------With respect to the "oversew"... over many years of manufacturing primarily FAA governed TSO'd canopies, we determined long ago that oversewing a seam is not only acceptable (and our FAA quality inspectors and engineers agreed) that an oversew may well be structurally preferable to "rework". Specifically with zero perosity material, rework leaves needle holes in the silicon coated fabric that IS degrading to the base material. If a rework is required in zero-p material, we recut new fabric and replace the piece. (yes, I have seen rework on zero-p fabric on other manufacturers canopies.)------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I found this a very intriguing answer. I have now thought about it and for me, I'd rather have a double-stitched meld (twice the thread) where the thread ran out than to have the whole seam re-sown with a single piece of thread, with twice as many needle holes the length of the seam.Unfortunately, by the time Chris Martin responded, this thread had devolved into the 'posting war' you mentioned, of people who were either accusing Dan Preston (Atair) of shameless self promotion at the expense of other manufacturers and people who wanted to hear input from any manufacturer.I'll admit I contributed to the animosity of this thread which I think is unfortunate now. I didn't start the controversy, however.QuoteWe're just a website that has some forums, not necessarily the venue where jumpers get all their information when buying new gear or the venue where gear disputes are settled.I think you are underestimating both the present value and potential of this forum.I, for one, recently made a multi-thousand dollar gear decision based in part on the information from dropzone.com. Granted, my dz was closed for the winter at the time and my rigger was 11 states away, but I found very valuable information here.I think the presence of industry representatives is an incredible benefit that cannot be overlooked.Maybe there could be a more strictly monitored forum for manufacturers that would allow for a statement/question/answer/rebuttal system that wouldn't be overloaded with flames and attacks. Where manufacturers could feel free to post without having to answer the same challenge or question 100 times.I agree this thread isn't pretty, but I also agree with scottbre who said Chris Martin's and Dan Preston's posts were "{...} worthwhile thing said in this thread"I value their input.This was actually a pretty good thread until somebody accused Dan of 'bashing' other manufacturers. The value of this thread then went downhill until it increased exponentially when another manufacturer responded.milo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,406 #75 May 13, 2002 >I think you are underestimating both the present value and potential of this forum>I, for one, recently made a multi-thousand dollar gear decision based in part on> the information from dropzone.com. Granted, my dz was closed for the winter at> the time and my rigger was 11 states away, but I found very valuable information> here.>I think the presence of industry representatives is an incredible benefit that >cannot be overlooked.I agree with all that; this is a good forum to discuss such things. I just disagree that, if a manufacturer chooses not to post here, it is any indication that something another manufacturer says is correct. It's more likely that they just don't care to read or to respond.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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Milo 0 #58 May 10, 2002 QuoteIf you are stating fact, there is no way for it to be challenged. No, facts and ONLY facts can be challenged. Opinions are only as good as the source. IF Dan's company doesn't use the procedures he mentioned, someone who has witnessed his operation can challenge it. No one has.If, PD or Precision are not using an inferior process, as Dan alleges, someone who is familiar with their processes can challenge it.No one has.So, until someone else with the authority of actual knowledge of the manufacturing practices of PD, Precision and Atair canopies comes forth, I have to believe Dan is speaking the truth, for he is unquestionably a representative of a canopy manufacturer.milo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #59 May 10, 2002 That's your impression of McDonands. I don't think of it the lowest quality food available to man, but rather the standard by which all other fast food is measured. Some is better, some is worse, but like it or not, they are the standard. Sound kind of like the PD of the parachute industry? I think it does.----------------------------Refer above to my statement about comparison within genre.----------------------------So, if I had said this it would have been OK? That's certainly not fair and it's a double standard if I've ever seen one.-------------------------------No, it is not a double standard. I don't believe that subjective comments are admissable (sp?) into an arguement on the part of a competitor. That goes for anyone. A double standard would be to say that Dan cannot say anything like that about PD, but if I worked for Sunpath, for example, it would be ok for me to make a subjective statement about another competitor. That is a double standard. What I have said is that that kind of subjectivity discredits anyone after making what may be a perfectly legitimate arguement, regardless of who makes it.------------------------------------It sounds to me as if you're reacting on the same Blind Faith that Dan mentioned in his original posting. Someone says that PD isn't the industry leader or that they don't make the worlds best canopies and you automatically assume the worst. Rather than take the statement at face value you chose to read things into it that clearly aren't there. -------------------------------------A) I do not jump PD mainsB) I have worked in the industry for the past 3 years and do know a thing or two about different companies, their manufacturing processes, and their business practices...I would not call my motivations to purchase one product over another "blind faith". C) I don't necessarily think that PD makes the best canopy in all cases. I will recommend different canopies from different manufacturers to different people. I am not reacting to him inferring that they are not the industry leader...I am responding to the method by which it was presented, and he has continually presented his arguements up to this point, regardless of who the arguement was against.D) Just because you don't see something does not mean that it is "clearly not there". I'm done.Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Milo 0 #60 May 10, 2002 QuoteI can't speak for everyone on this, but I think a few of us would be less skeptical of the comment (or the motives behind it) had it been said by someone who doesn't stand to gain or lose financially based on what they say about a companies product. I don't think I could be more blunt than that.I think Dan is posting because he thinks he makes the best product on the market.I hope every manufacturer thinks they each make the best product on the market, regardless of profit.I wish other manufacturers would post here to try to tell me why their product was best.milo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloud9 0 #61 May 10, 2002 Well I think that it was forgotten completely that Dan was not posting to slam PD or any other manufacturer. But posting in direct response to another thread that stated. If it's not PD then its Sh*%. Trying to provide food for thought about blind faith and why its not the best answer to your canopy choices Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #62 May 10, 2002 QuoteI think Dan is posting because he thinks he makes the best product on the market.Yup. We ALL know that one He's definitely got the easiest packing one - I managed to stuff one into the bag in 10 minutes in a temperature and humidity controlled test lab at the office - cold and low humidity on a smooth floor, no problems. Impressive. QuoteI hope every manufacturer thinks they each make the best product on the market, regardless of profit.I hope so, else it's time to be very scared of any manufacturer who doesn't. I certainly don't want the Ford Explorer of canopies. QuoteI wish other manufacturers would post here to try to tell me why their product was best.I would rather they told me what makes THE best parachute in the world, in thier opinion, without resorting to mentioning competitors by name. If I want marketing hype, I can go to thier webpage, look at every second page of Parachutist, or talk to them at a booth at a boogie. Oh well, can we agree to disagree? Slight aside:Here's what one of PD's competitor's/partners - Big Air Sportz - says about PD's fab process:"PD’s reputation for manufacturing top quality products is unparalleled. Customers that were wary about a new company were soothed by the quality assured by the PD assembly line, with its multiple layers of checks and its long history." I guess this is Brian Germain's opinion on it? They're a canopy manufacturer? *shrug*Still, no one has answered the question - how do I spot an excellent stitch pattern and how do I spot a mediocre one? I would love to have a checklist of little things to look for on a canopy to see if the manufacturer is cutting corners or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #63 May 10, 2002 Looks to me like everyone has said what they have to say - at least once. Can we move on to something else now?Thanks.pull & flare,lisa---On the other hand...you have different fingers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #64 May 10, 2002 I have one question for Dan and everyone else who has posted and read this thread...Quality is simply determined by an oversew? What limits determine an oversew? (overlapping, a start/stop/restart with the sewing machine). Why is this a negative quality? Is this a safety issue or simply one of aesthetics?Quality is a very personal issue. Everyone wants to hold highly their own craftmanship. We have been manufacturing parachutes for almost twenty years with many of the same seamstresses. While these seemingly quiet, unassuming women may seem meek, I can tell you truthfully that they are ultimately proud of their individual work. Each person signs the Quality Control forms as the work is completed. With respect to the "oversew"... over many years of manufacturing primarily FAA governed TSO'd canopies, we determined long ago that oversewing a seam is not only acceptable (and our FAA quality inspectors and engineers agreed) that an oversew may well be structurally preferable to "rework". Specifically with zero perosity material, rework leaves needle holes in the silicon coated fabric that IS degrading to the base material. If a rework is required in zero-p material, we recut new fabric and replace the piece. (yes, I have seen rework on zero-p fabric on other manufacturers canopies.)I have seen the highest quality manufacturing techniques and processes demonstrated by EVERY manufacturer. Design from everyone is unbelievable, (look at where we were only 5 or 10 years ago!).There are some incredible choices out there... try them all... and choose your favorite. Each manufacturer is proud of their products, and justifiably so... you must decide which YOU prefer.Chris(Precision Aerodynamics, Inc.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #65 May 10, 2002 Great post. Thank you.Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottbre 0 #66 May 10, 2002 QuoteOk I have a question. Lets say you are 5 inches from the end of the seam and you run out of thread. Ok so you take all the stiches out and start over. Now you have a piece of nylon with a whole bunch of holes then you put the material back together and restich. So now you have 2 sets of holes for the same seam, cause it's next to impossible to put those holes exactly back on top of one another. How does that effect the durability of the fabric, meaning with the extra holes does that leave a seam that could potentially fail or not really the seam itself, but the extra holes along the seam? Aside from cobaltdan's original post, this is the only other worthwhile thing said in this thread. So I wanted to try to bring it up again, and I am specifically interested your views on this, cobaltdan, since you consider it a superior manufacturing aspect to restitch a whole seam if you run out of thread before the seam is finished.In an argument, you can never prove you're right. The best you can do is prove that they are more wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
polarbear 1 #67 May 10, 2002 I think my question was worthwhile...groundzero addressed it but I would like to hear cobaltdan's answer...Why is one continuous seam better than overstitching? That isn't supposed to sound flip...I just don't understand why one is significantly better than the other. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #68 May 10, 2002 QuoteI can't speak for everyone on this, but I think a few of us would be less skeptical of the comment (or the motives behind it) had it been said by someone who doesn't stand to gain or lose financially based on what they say about a companies product. I don't think I could be more blunt than that.Totally agree, but nobody's talking except manufacturers. Why? Nobody (or very few people anyway) KNOW the differences between the manufacturing techniques of different manufacturers. I don't know if he's an expert on it, but what if Bill Booth would comment on canopies and Dan would switch to container issues? That would work for me. I'm happy to get any info I can from anywhere I can. When one manufacturer speaks about another's processes, I would like to know how they know that information though. Dan mentioned PD's and Precision's stitching. How do we know he didnt go on a tour of PD 10 years ago, saw what they do, and later heard precision has the same techniques? We have no way of knowing. However, I do know that manufacturers (outside of skydiving) care more than anyone what their competitors are up to. Last summer I worked for a major jet engine manufacturer. I KNOW that some of what they did was reverse engineering a competitor's parts. Manufacturers learn from their competitors. I bet nobody knows more about whats going on at GM than Ford. Why not listen to them? Sure, we have to keep in mind Ford wants you to buy their cars so they'll only tell you what makes their's better, but that doesn't mean we can't get valuable information about both their cars and GM's.Know what I mean?Dave http://www.skydivingmovies.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #69 May 10, 2002 WHEW!!!BOOBIES!!!!!"It's all about the BOOBIES!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #70 May 10, 2002 From what it looks like, Grumpy was referring to a comment in the thread, not the entire thread itsself. (*but I think a few of us would be less skeptical of the comment (or the motives behind it)*).I have not argued against, and have not heard anyone argue against the involvement of manufacturers on these forums, and the obvious benefit they bring in to us less informed. This is probably the 7th post, at least, that we have had, specifically making an arguement why we should have input from manufacturers in the forums...the point has never been argued, that's not the issue.Unless anyone has something additional to throw in, I would like to humbly suggest that we leave this thread and move on. Anyone else agree? (if you do, don't answer that...sort of defeats the purpose of the question) :-)Thanks for the discussion.Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #71 May 10, 2002 i havent read all the replies (29) and am running out the door to go jumping.i just wanted to post a quick note as i think this post has gone off heading.my views on mcdonalds is that they are the most successful food chain in history. why? excellent business strategy: the majority put their needs in the following order of importance: low price, fast delivery, consistancy, quality, design.i am an engineer first, a businessman second, and have always prided myself as not being part of the majority, so to speak. as such i adopt the less successful, but more personally rewarding for me, strategy of placing our order of importance reversed from the above. sincerely,-dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #72 May 10, 2002 Dan,Thanks for your response to the thread. In response to your statement, though, regarding McDonalds' order of priorities, low price, fast delivery, consistancy, quality, design. I think that PD has proven that their designs are solid (even if they are not as technologically advanced in some cases). The Spectre is arguably the best 7 cell canopy on the market. The Stiletto remains a staple of the high performance canopy market. The Sabre, while being old technology, was replaced by the Sabre2, which is turning out to be extremely popular on its own merits. Personally, I don't like the Vengeance, but many people do, and can offer reasons for their preference, aside from "it's a PD". I have several friends who jump the Velocity, and are extremely pleased with it. Their quality is without anymore faulter than other manufacturers, and in many cases is better. They have proven to be consistant, if you look at the ratio of canopies that have problems in their manufacturing to the number that come out without said issues (i.e. - opening hard, diving on opening, etc.). They do not offer the fastest delivery times on the market, and they certainly are not the least expensive. Although I think that some people are closed minded to alternatives, just like you said, because of a certain "blind faith", people are starting to see that they do have other options, and we are encouraging them to examine them closely. That does not mean, though, that I think that PD deserves to be overlooked simply for fear of acting upon the blind faith, or that I would consider it a bad decision on anyone's part to purchase a PD canopy because that is what they like.I still maintain that this is an unfair comparison.Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #73 May 12, 2002 >Dan's facts stand unchallenged by any data from the other manufacturers. >I guess that makes them true, or true enough that his competitors are willing to> let them be stated, unchallenged, in a public forum.There is a third option - no competitors care enough to get into a posting war about it here. Do not overestimate our importance. We're just a website that has some forums, not necessarily the venue where jumpers get all their information when buying new gear or the venue where gear disputes are settled.This is something you come to realize after posting a while. If you post something controversial, and no one responds, either:1. You're so right no one can dispute you or2. No one cares enough to dispute you.I find that 2) is true far more often than 1).-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Milo 0 #74 May 13, 2002 QuoteThere is a third option - no competitors care enough to get into a posting war about it here.Well, Chris Martin from Precision Aerodynamics said:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------With respect to the "oversew"... over many years of manufacturing primarily FAA governed TSO'd canopies, we determined long ago that oversewing a seam is not only acceptable (and our FAA quality inspectors and engineers agreed) that an oversew may well be structurally preferable to "rework". Specifically with zero perosity material, rework leaves needle holes in the silicon coated fabric that IS degrading to the base material. If a rework is required in zero-p material, we recut new fabric and replace the piece. (yes, I have seen rework on zero-p fabric on other manufacturers canopies.)------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I found this a very intriguing answer. I have now thought about it and for me, I'd rather have a double-stitched meld (twice the thread) where the thread ran out than to have the whole seam re-sown with a single piece of thread, with twice as many needle holes the length of the seam.Unfortunately, by the time Chris Martin responded, this thread had devolved into the 'posting war' you mentioned, of people who were either accusing Dan Preston (Atair) of shameless self promotion at the expense of other manufacturers and people who wanted to hear input from any manufacturer.I'll admit I contributed to the animosity of this thread which I think is unfortunate now. I didn't start the controversy, however.QuoteWe're just a website that has some forums, not necessarily the venue where jumpers get all their information when buying new gear or the venue where gear disputes are settled.I think you are underestimating both the present value and potential of this forum.I, for one, recently made a multi-thousand dollar gear decision based in part on the information from dropzone.com. Granted, my dz was closed for the winter at the time and my rigger was 11 states away, but I found very valuable information here.I think the presence of industry representatives is an incredible benefit that cannot be overlooked.Maybe there could be a more strictly monitored forum for manufacturers that would allow for a statement/question/answer/rebuttal system that wouldn't be overloaded with flames and attacks. Where manufacturers could feel free to post without having to answer the same challenge or question 100 times.I agree this thread isn't pretty, but I also agree with scottbre who said Chris Martin's and Dan Preston's posts were "{...} worthwhile thing said in this thread"I value their input.This was actually a pretty good thread until somebody accused Dan of 'bashing' other manufacturers. The value of this thread then went downhill until it increased exponentially when another manufacturer responded.milo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #75 May 13, 2002 >I think you are underestimating both the present value and potential of this forum>I, for one, recently made a multi-thousand dollar gear decision based in part on> the information from dropzone.com. Granted, my dz was closed for the winter at> the time and my rigger was 11 states away, but I found very valuable information> here.>I think the presence of industry representatives is an incredible benefit that >cannot be overlooked.I agree with all that; this is a good forum to discuss such things. I just disagree that, if a manufacturer chooses not to post here, it is any indication that something another manufacturer says is correct. It's more likely that they just don't care to read or to respond.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
