Falling out of a rig

[rhino 0]

Damn.. That is interesting....
Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!
http://www.aahit.com

[skycat 0]

Ok, just an update, I tried it with my other rig a Reflex R350, the laterals are longer on it than the mirage, but the harness is made a little different to accomidate the larger container, this one also has hip rings. It was much easier to get it to move, but it got stuck at the same point as the mirage up around my chest, Derek (hooknswoop) tried to yank it farther and I ended up good and stuck. So after he was done laughing at me and I got it back down so we could test the fit of my new terch, after the terch was connected I actually needed to pull it over my head to remove. Well, as proof and 3 tries later, with it not coming off, we ended up having to undo the chest strap to get it over my head.
So I think Phree is on the right track it is the rigs with the longer MLW that will have more problems.

[highfly 0]

In light of what has happend to a Tandem student this w/e, is there any chance that you can post the vid again to make light on how you can slip out of your rig?


Thanks

BSBD

www.myspace.com/durtymac

[LouDiamond 1]

I thought I'd never hear about this phenom since I thought it was an isolated experience. This actually happened to me early on in my skydiving career. I was testing the MC-5 for the Airborne test board and we were experimenting with different body positions on exit. The exit where this happened to me was a classic "pike" position where we would exit the aircraft and basically try and grab our ankles. Shortly after exiting and assuming the position the main was deployed via the static line at which point the entire rig was pulled in the opposite direction I was falling. My leg straps slipped all the way down to my calfs/ankles and had I not grasped the main lift web I am convinced I would of slipped completely out of that rig. Falling out of the rig is entirely possible, even if it was made for you but especially if it is not properly fitted and it is an adjustable rig. The key to this happening though is a combination of body position and the leg straps moving down toward the jumpers feet. I can see how this could also occur if one was freeflying and had a premature deployment or if one deployed from a sit.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mdrejhon 8]

I didn't realize that bungee cords are a lifesaver for other things than avoiding harness-induced spins on miniature parachutes (avoids unbalanced leg strap position)

Maybe they should be, seeing that "in certain conditions, such as premature deployment from a sitfly position, it may be possible to fall backwards out of a rig. Bungee cords will greatly reduce the chance of this occuring."

[Edit: MakeItHappen already has an article here: http://makeithappen.com/spsj/fallout.html ...]

[mdrejhon 8]

Cross referencing VERY RELEVANT INFORMATION about "holes" in rigs:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1899771#1899985

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We first became aware of the potential of the "hole" back in the 1980s. A jumper was exiting a DC-3 and snagged his reserve ripcord on something and his spring loaded reserve pilot chute launched and caught on the lower part of the door lip. The jumper reported the exit seemed normal for a second or two and then something hit him like a freight train. The reserve strung out with the pilot chute still stuck on the door.

The sudden stop began the sequence of pulling the rig up and over his head. Then the pilot chute came off the door and the opening of the reserve finished the job. The jumper is under his reserve hanging only by his legs. He managed to pull himself up, the rig is now in front of him, and from there he managed a safe landing.

It was a million to one freak accident and we all promptly forget about it.

Then some years later it happened again. This time to a CRW jumper in a wrap. After that we hung every harness we had in the suspended harness and found that with some wiggling and a bit of effort you can come out of every rig there was. There are then some CRW jumpers who added another strap, like a free flyer or free stylist uses, to keep the leg straps in place, and to prevent this from happening. However, it just didn’t happen often enough to be a major concern. Keep in mind the above jumpers survived because they had working legs.

I'm not speculating this is what happened to this tandem passenger, but in any case it is something all jumpers and tandem masters should know about. You can visualize someone on a tandem with a very small bottom and no leg control whose legs are allowed to come up on opening, sliding back down through the hole even with the lower laterals cinched down as much as possible.

I even saw jumpers, with long leg straps, donning their rigs in this fashion when we first got rid of B-12s in favor of step throughs. With the rig laying face down they'd step into the leg straps then pick up the rig, bend over, and throw it over their heads. If you can get in that way, you can surly come out that way.

This is extremely rare however, so don’t let it keep you up at night . . .

Edited to add: Thanks Jan, I didn't see your post and that explains it better than I did.

NickD
BASE 194

[Wonderhog 0]

Could you please send me a link to the video you speak of concerning falling out of harness. i light of this weeks tragedy, I would like to see it.
Perhaps a piece of added webbing is in my future.
Thanks.

[email protected]

Laurel Nichols
_______________________________________

If it weren't for physics and law enforcement, I'd be unstoppable.-Anon

[PhreeZone 15]

This video is long gone...(this thread is over 3 years old). The only way to prevent this is to re-rig the entire harness, there is no "simple fix" to it. The Sigma tandem harness has a piece of webbing on the back that helps, but there is nothing similar on any sport rig I've ever seen. Its going to have to be a ground up redesign of a harness to eliminate it, not an "Extra piece of webbing" sewn on.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[FrogNog 1]

And if we're adding pieces to the harness to avoid failling out, the yoke-ejection direction could be addressed as well.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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snip there is no "simple fix" to it. The Sigma tandem harness has a piece of webbing on the back that helps, but there is nothing similar on any sport rig I've ever seen. Its going to have to be a ground up redesign of a harness to eliminate it, not an "Extra piece of webbing" sewn on.

You haven't seen my rig.

A solution: I had a rigger make a connector for me. It is a piece of webbing with loops at each end. The loops slide over each of the leg straps. It is pulled up all the way to the top of the leg strap in back. The overall length should be such that the tension in the strap is snug when your leg straps are tightened for a jump. The loops are slightly smaller than the width of the leg straps so that it can stay in place without any additional tacking or rigging. I have been using this for a few years now.

This strap looks very much like the free floating tandem chest straps but it is not adjustable.

Every once in a while people ask me what that is for. I tell them that I can get out of my rig with both parachutes packed. It's even easier when the main is out. The strap makes it harder, if not impossible, to get out. Most people think I'm overly anal about falling out backwards.

For most jumpers on most deployments, the split saddle has a remote possibility of allowing someone to fall out. This would result is a catastrophic event, the death of the jumper.

For other jumpers the probability is higher and may be close to very probable. I think it is only a matter of time before a sitflyer with a premee gets his rig yanked off of him.

I spoke with a very experienced TI about this and he said his school put those little bungy things on all of the tandem passenger harnesses. He even told me of one jump where the passenger almost fell out (before they had the bungy things installed). There was nothing he could do to help keep her in. He felt helpless, but fortunately she did not fall out.

He also told me of a large student that went fetal when he pulled. The jumper almost fell out. The chest strap was up around his neck. The leg straps were down at his knees. The jumper could not reach his toggles either.

This TI also modified one tandem harness for special needs people. It has two extra straps to hold the buttocks in. He also uses this harness for some elderly jumpers who may not have strength in their hips.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[LawnDart21 0]

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there is no "simple fix" to it.

A piece of webbing that is looped at one end (thereby allowing the lower back strap to pass through it, so it can move freely due to different size students). The other end of the strap would go through a friction adapter coming back out going upward, so that it can be shortened/lengthened as needed to account for different heights. The other end of the friction adaptor would have another strap continuing downward and then having two straps coming off it at its end, at a 45 degree angle, that would attach, one to each leg strap. It would look like an upside down "Y" from the back strap to the leg straps.

Now how much force it could absorb is beyond my knowledge, but I am sure there are those that can make that assessment and build it accordingly.

It would require a very minor alteration of the current harnesses out there.

And ultimately it wouldnt necessarily have to have a high load bearing ability, as if it does its job in the first place, ie, keep the body and harness in the position it is mean to be in, when the chute does open, the force will go out where it was originally intended.

Just my .02

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[schuey87 0]

So can it be got around on any rig with a bit of work for a rigger? Or is the only way to avoid it to get a custom fitted new rig... but even then some people have said that they can get out of theirs and it was custom made for them. Somewhere here I saw about rigs with longer main lift webbing have more of a problem... which rigs are those, or does the MLW depend on how you are measured for the rig or the size of the rig, because I'm sure that the article linked either here or in the other thread said that with bigger rigs it is less of a problem. What size rigs is it that you guys have been able to get out of?
Cheers guys.

[LawnDart21 0]

My suggestion was just regarding tandem harnesses for the student. Its just an idea, a theory.

I dont see that much additional webbing practical for a sport rig though, as such an addition would prove very bulky I would think on a sport rig.

The bungee cord between leg straps, while not a load bearing fix, is certainly a viable solution for sport rigs that will add a degree of preventative safety regarding falling out of a sport rig, but its not an absolute.

An observation that I have made regarding the gear I have owned is that my 1st rig did not have hip rings, and as such the leg straps (in retrospect) did not have the same freedom of movement that my new rigs have with hip rings. Hip rings, while providing a greater range of motion for the leg strap, also allow it to move further down the leg in a sit fly position (with the abscence of the bungee cord modification).

If something can be taken from this horrible incident, perhaps it is that we can all take a closer look at how well our own gear fits us.

Another idea that I have had in my head, but yet to try and create is to sew a piece of webbing high on each side of a pair for freefly pants with a button on the other end. The idea being that once the rig is on, the webbing would "button" over the legstrap, preventing it from sliding down the leg. It wouldnt be load bearing, but again, I think just keeing the leg straps where they are supposed to be in freefall and during deployment is the best way to increase safety.

Lastly, I think that its important to remember/acknowledge that todays gear is incredibly well made, and when used in a manner consistent with its designed purpose, that all of todays gear is inherently safe as is. And it is when we begin to push the envelopes of our gear, it creates a higher probability of it doing something outside of its intended design (like leg straps riding down the legs in a sit fly).

Our gear is simply metal and fabric, woven into an intricate design that, when used correctly has a very very high success rate in performing as intended. But it is still inanimate metal and fabric, and doesn't know its not supposed to act in certain ways. We need to all possess the forsight (know the limits) of understanding what are gear is prone to do and not do.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[diablopilot 2]

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Bungee cords will greatly reduce the chance of this occuring.

Bull. The breaking strength of bungee ain't gonna save your ass and long before it breaks the anchored ends are gonna pull free, as the most common method of attavhing it is to knot it.

I've been suggesting to people for as long as I was in gear sales that if you have to rely on a bungee to hold your new custom rig in place, the fucking thing doesn't fit you right!

If you are supe worried about falling out of an ill fitting rig DON'T jump it. Otherwise there are simple solutions. A bridge of webbing between legstraps (hmmmm seen that somewhere b4) will add security.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Wonderhog 0]

Most people think I'm overly anal about falling out backwards.


I think there are certain things one should be anal about...not dying due to innocent oversight is one of them, I will investigate this modification further, thank you.

Laurel Nichols
_______________________________________

If it weren't for physics and law enforcement, I'd be unstoppable.-Anon

[Newbie 0]

Quote

Quote

snip there is no "simple fix" to it. The Sigma tandem harness has a piece of webbing on the back that helps, but there is nothing similar on any sport rig I've ever seen. Its going to have to be a ground up redesign of a harness to eliminate it, not an "Extra piece of webbing" sewn on.

You haven't seen my rig.

A solution: I had a rigger make a connector for me. It is a piece of webbing with loops at each end. The loops slide over each of the leg straps. It is pulled up all the way to the top of the leg strap in back. The overall length should be such that the tension in the strap is snug when your leg straps are tightened for a jump. The loops are slightly smaller than the width of the leg straps so that it can stay in place without any additional tacking or rigging. I have been using this for a few years now.

This strap looks very much like the free floating tandem chest straps but it is not adjustable.

Every once in a while people ask me what that is for. I tell them that I can get out of my rig with both parachutes packed. It's even easier when the main is out. The strap makes it harder, if not impossible, to get out. Most people think I'm overly anal about falling out backwards.

For most jumpers on most deployments, the split saddle has a remote possibility of allowing someone to fall out. This would result is a catastrophic event, the death of the jumper.

For other jumpers the probability is higher and may be close to very probable. I think it is only a matter of time before a sitflyer with a premee gets his rig yanked off of him.

I spoke with a very experienced TI about this and he said his school put those little bungy things on all of the tandem passenger harnesses. He even told me of one jump where the passenger almost fell out (before they had the bungy things installed). There was nothing he could do to help keep her in. He felt helpless, but fortunately she did not fall out.

He also told me of a large student that went fetal when he pulled. The jumper almost fell out. The chest strap was up around his neck. The leg straps were down at his knees. The jumper could not reach his toggles either.

This TI also modified one tandem harness for special needs people. It has two extra straps to hold the buttocks in. He also uses this harness for some elderly jumpers who may not have strength in their hips.

.

Jan if you can, can you please post up a few pics of this mod you have had made for your rig? I thinki know what you mean but it would help to have photos. Thanks

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Hooknswoop 19]

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You haven't seen my rig.

That sounds very cool. Can you post pics/specs/dimensions?

Derek

[schuey87 0]

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An observation that I have made regarding the gear I have owned is that my 1st rig did not have hip rings, and as such the leg straps (in retrospect) did not have the same freedom of movement that my new rigs have with hip rings. Hip rings, while providing a greater range of motion for the leg strap, also allow it to move further down the leg in a sit fly position (with the abscence of the bungee cord modification).

So do hip rings make it more likely... not neccessarily mean that you will be able to... but give a greater chance that you will be able to get out of the rig?

[Falko 0]

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You haven't seen my rig.

That sounds very cool. Can you post pics/specs/dimensions?

Yes please post the pics!

BTW, I tried it with my articulated Atom Legend rig. I was amazed at how easily you can take off the rig even though all the straps were tightly fastened.

Everyone try it:
1) Put your rig on, make the leg & chest straps extra tight so you don't fool yourself
2) Sit on the couch, pull the leg straps in the direction of your knees, to more than half the length of your femur. If you have a rubber band or other leg strap connector in place, disconnect it.
3) Stretch your legs and bend over as if you were trying to touch your toes.
4) Breathe out, slide off the couch and have the couch seat push your rig upwards, now you can pull it over your head like "taking off a shirt".
I did, and there I sat looking at my rig in front of me with all straps closed . And that was with the main still in, it would have been even easier if it were out!

I have to add that I'm (still) bendy but pull force doesn't care if you are. If body position was "right", leg straps were in a bad position and one had a premature opening in a sitfly position, I think it's a possible scenario that one could have their rig yanked off of them.

Now is there a need to do something about this, or do we ridicule the scenario and put it in the 1-in-a-million folder and forget about it? I don't think so...

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[ladyskydiver 0]

Ok...this thread got me curious on if I'd be able to get out of my rig backwards. My thoughts "nah...the rig was custom made for me" so I decided to try.

So gear breakdown - custom made container with articulated harness, 170 main in container, 150 reserve in container, straps (legs & chest) tightened completely to my normal tightness, no bungee between leg straps (as I haven't replaced it, yet).

Test 1 - wearing jeans and sweater - result: Able to get out of rig easily. Did not have to struggle at all.

Test 2 - wearing RW suit - result: Got stuck in rig and unable to get out of it. (Thank God no cameras were around while I'm trying to get out of it ). The RW suit has large grippers (2") and a Jack the ripper knife on it so there were "snag" points for the rig to try and get past. With this test, the only way that I could see my rig coming off was a large enough "snatch" force to rip me out. And at that point in time, I somehow suspect other valuble items (i.e. my neck) would have broken during the process and then it wouldn't matter that I had fallen out of my rig.

I am going to get the bungee cord put back on my rig during this next repack just as a way to try and keep my leg straps from wandering so far down my legs when I'm attempting freeflying.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Jan if you can, can you please post up a few pics of this mod you have had made for your rig? I thinki know what you mean but it would help to have photos. Thanks

Quote

That sounds very cool. Can you post pics/specs/dimensions?

I will this weekend. I do not have a digital still camera. I'll have to have a photographer at the DZ take pics.

I had two straps made about 2-3 years ago by Dave DeWolf and Ziggy.
I made them some drawings, but I can't find those pics.

In the meantime, hope this pic and explanation of the dimensions helps.
In the pic, the red lines are a conceptual representation of stitching. It has no resemblance to the actual stitch pattern.

Overall Length of finished strap = the distance across your buttocks between the outside edges of the leg straps where you want the strap to float.

Mine sits at the top of the leg straps. I have a Racer without hip rings. It crosses my butt at the top of the curvy part of the butt - sort of like the RWS pic of the tandem horizontal strap.

The Sewn length of the loops = slightly smaller than the width of the leg strap where you want the strap to float. Slightly smaller means 1/4 to 1/2 inch.

My leg straps are not tapered. For tapered leg straps you might want to taper the loop too. You should still be able to slide the loops over the wider parts of the leg strap with a little bit of squishing. (Does that make sense?) You want the loop to be slightly smaller so that it stays in place without any tacking. Tacking would probably break after a number of jumps. My strap stays in place. I do feel pressure from it on openings.

The loops were sewn differently by Dave and Ziggy. I can't remember which way goes with which rigger. I'll have to get a rigger to tell me the names of the stitching, webbing type etc. They are significantly different too. One is slightly more bulky than the other.

I think that generic sizes can be made that will work for most people. The strap may sit in a different place tho. It is probably better to measure what you need on a rig/person basis. I will do this at Perris this weekend for anyone that wants one. I'll get Ziggy or someone to make them. I do not know the cost or turn time. You can have any color as long as it is black. ;) I'm sure a MFG can get you color coordinated.

For personal rigs, used primarily by one person, there is no need to have an adjustable strap.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Newbie 0]

Quote

Quote

Jan if you can, can you please post up a few pics of this mod you have had made for your rig? I thinki know what you mean but it would help to have photos. Thanks

Quote

That sounds very cool. Can you post pics/specs/dimensions?

I will this weekend. I do not have a digital still camera. I'll have to have a photographer at the DZ take pics.

I had two straps made about 2-3 years ago by Dave DeWolf and Ziggy.
I made them some drawings, but I can't find those pics.

In the meantime, hope this pic and explanation of the dimensions helps.

Overall Length of finished strap = the distance across your buttocks between the outside edges of the leg straps where you want the strap to float.

Mine sits at the top of the leg straps. I have a Racer without hip rings. It crosses my butt at the top of the curvy part of the butt - sort of like the RWS pic of the tandem horizontal strap.

The Sewn length of the loops = slightly smaller than the width of the leg strap where you want the strap to float. Slightly smaller means 1/4 to 1/2 inch.

My leg straps are not tapered. For tapered leg straps you might want to taper the loop too. You should still be able to slide the loops over the wider parts of the leg strap with a little bit of squishing. (Does that make sense?) You want the loop to be slightly smaller so that it stays in place without any tacking. Tacking would probably break after a number of jumps. My strap stays in place. I do feel pressure from it on openings.

The loops were sewn differently by Dave and Ziggy. I can't remember which way goes with which rigger. I'll have to get a rigger to tell me the names of the stitching, webbing type etc. They are significantly different too. One is slightly more bulky than the other.

I think that generic sizes can be made that will work for most people. The strap may sit in a different place tho. It is probably better to measure what you need on a rig/person basis. I will do this at Perris this weekend for anyone that wants one. I'll get Ziggy or someone to make them. I do not know the cost or turn time. You can have any color as long as it is black. ;) I'm sure a MFG can get you color coordinated.

For personal rigs, used primarily by one person, there is no need to have and adjustable strap.

.

Many thanks for the explanation. I think i'm getting it but some pics would be great. Look forward to seeing them next week if you get a chance to sort it out.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[jtval 0]

Cora,
Jsut want to make sure that you aren't relying on the snag point from saving your butt.
with the force that would be applied on a premature opening in a sit, I think those snag point would be ripped from the thread/stitching. yes its a good idea for the bungee straps but that won't be a huge help in this situation ,either.

the bungee thing is merely a cosmetic fix for added comfort. (I.E. it does prevent the straps from sliding down your legs but in a life threatening situation I wouldnt want to hope the bungee would save me.)

I have the bungee straps on my rig but until this incident I haven't thought about falling out of my rig.
thats definitely something to take out of the chain of events though

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[ladyskydiver 0]

Hi, hon!

Nope...not relying on it to save my butt. Just something that I'm needing to be aware of and pay a lot closer attention to how my rig feels when I'm jumping. And the bungee is not something that I'd consider to be a help in the kind of situation we're talking about...just something that would help a bit to keep the leg straps a little closer to my body.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[jtval 0]

Cool, just wanted to be sure.
it's been like beating a dead horse here lately but I just had to ask.

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