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crashtested

Intresting Malfunction procedure's / Student Cam

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The dreaded line twist and how to get out of them debate...

This is not really a idea in my book, but people are more then welcome to argue the release your brakes argument with me.

I like the student hand cam though, pretty cool!! anyone on here use this as an offer at the work place ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4PM2qgvAsI

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This is not really a idea in my book, but people are more then welcome to argue the release your brakes argument with me.



Are you the instructor in the video?

1. The canopy seemed to be flying OK and it seemed like normal kicking out of the line twists should have been possible. (But I wasn't there.)

2. Releasing the brakes allowed a lot of suspension line and toggles to fall down into an area where they could get caught on something.

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Nope this is not me..

I don't see any real benefit to releasing breaks on a sigma :) . not only from an obvious point of view, but i don't see how inducing a turn could help you get out of line twists on a tandem canopy, i also did not like the exsessive lines it created by attempting to do so, nor the fact it seemed to push the twist down from the lines to the risers.

I have had one cutaway on a tandem due to line twists, and have since found that having the passenger adopt a good arch with there legs between mine to be more useful then having them attempt to scissor kick there way out with me.

I do like the idea of having a student filming there own experience.. pretty cool

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crashtested

I have had one cutaway on a tandem due to line twists, and have since found that having the passenger adopt a good arch with there legs between mine to be more useful then having them attempt to scissor kick there way out with me.



Having the student put their legs back brings their knees back. This helps bring the tandem pair around as they get out of line twist. With the students knees up the pair will have a hard time turning back into the wind as you see in this video. The wind pushes on the students knees causing the pair to weather-vane.

I am not personally a fan of tandem students wearing handcams. I have seen too many videos of the student focusing on "getting the shot" rather than focusing on what they are suppose to do. If for some reason any part of the equipment (drogue, drogue bridle, lines, etc.) become entangled with the student I do not feel as comfortable with them clearing the mal. In the video you see the TI telling the student to help kick, but the student doesn't respond. There is also the recommendation that a jumper has at least 200 jumps prior to wearing a camera.

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

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i know it is a sigma container, but i am not sure if it is a SIGMA main??
I learned a little trick a long time ago and how a passenger can help, get them to stck out one arm and leg into the direction they need to turn, you be suprised how much drag that can created by just doing that and helps to get the rotation going along with the tandem master.
personally i have never had any problem getting out of line twist on a tandem.
as for releasing the brakes it be a last resort for me to do that.
however,i remember when i worked in NZ,couple people had the idea with line twist on an icarus canopys would be easier to clear by putting on a little brake. :S:S

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whatever happened to the simple procedure of taking the outside leg and throwing it in the direction needed to untwist, once the motion starts it will continue until twists are gone
Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

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I agree with not letting students have cameras. There is a reason why some DZs say no sandals...snag hazard!

Obtaining good video footage should only be done if the TM is able to manage the risks involved. He can't do that if he isn't in control of the camera!

I have to deal with cheap customers who get pissed at me for not letting them wear their go pros. They seem to think we are trying to make money out of camera rental...our cameras only! We aren't. The service we sell is safe, quality video footage. We only hire extremely experienced TMs for that reason, pay a good wage to attract the best we can and provide a high level of safety.

It would be easy as a T/I to staff my place by training noob TMs and putting cameras on the students but I feel that simply isn't acceptable.
I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

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teason


I have to deal with cheap customers who get pissed at me for not letting them wear their go pros.



I joked about letting students wear their go-pros on the little elastic head band only with a waiver that says we're not responsible if it comes off.

On exit, ready, set, goooooo and I take the camera off their head, shove it in a jumpsuit pocket and say 'Dude, that camera flew RIGHT OFF!':D:D
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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I know the TI and he is very experienced to say the least. It's a precision tandem main, no brake setting which can make it almost impossible to kick out of line twists. I've had plenty of line twists on this model of canopy and usually have no issue clearing them. But I've chopped from line twists as well :)

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This was mine. As Joe said, precision main w/ no brake settings. My attempt was pulling down one of the toggles to turn the canopy out of the twists....fail. I've had the student kick with me in past similar issues and it helped. This time no such luck. When your back is stuck in the wind.....it's really hard to get the momentum going. The comment of sticking your leg out....I'm lost on that. Not really gonna work with your back to the wind. I also worked the twists all the way down as far as I could go and no such luck there. I'm open to ideas since I've shown you I didn't do it right. One thought is maybe pull both toggles to slow the forward speed...reducing the air flow that's keeping us back to the wind (basically de-arched). Then kick like a mofo.

Oh, and gotta agree w/ Peek. The dangling toggles were sketchy and was on my mind. They did eventually work their way back up but I did notice that and didn't like it.

Kudo's to the student....awesome video.
my pics & stuff!

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Not being a TI, I'm wondering why EPs for tandem twists are different than sport EPs. Releasing toggles on a sport rig is not a good idea.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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The comment of sticking your leg out....I'm lost on that. Not really gonna work with your back to the wind.



We have one of those canopys with no brake settings as well. I avoid it in favor of an EZ for this very reason. A canopy in full flight with line twist is definitely harder to get fixed than one in brakes. I would say though that sticking your leg out should work the same back or front to the wind. You just need to use the opposite leg. Then switch legs as you rotate. (if you rotate)
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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linestretch

This was mine. As Joe said, precision main w/ no brake settings. My attempt was pulling down one of the toggles to turn the canopy out of the twists....fail. I've had the student kick with me in past similar issues and it helped. This time no such luck. When your back is stuck in the wind.....it's really hard to get the momentum going. The comment of sticking your leg out....I'm lost on that. Not really gonna work with your back to the wind. I also worked the twists all the way down as far as I could go and no such luck there. I'm open to ideas since I've shown you I didn't do it right. One thought is maybe pull both toggles to slow the forward speed...reducing the air flow that's keeping us back to the wind (basically de-arched). Then kick like a mofo.

Oh, and gotta agree w/ Peek. The dangling toggles were sketchy and was on my mind. They did eventually work their way back up but I did notice that and didn't like it.

Kudo's to the student....awesome video.



You got the twists down to the risers and then just gave up!
Oh! You were SO close to getting out of them.

All you had to do was reach up to the links and push yourself out of the twists. That technique works great for me. It's one of the first things I learned from being a packer at a skydiving school, way before I got my tandem rating.

I've had plenty of line twists and I've never had to have my passenger help me. I'm not a big guy, either.

There was one time when I thought I would have to cut away from twists, but soon as my hands went to the handles. It started to unwind.

Leaning hard to one side in the harness actually does wonders, rather than messing with the toggles.

It's always a learning experience. Keep at it!

Blue Skies!

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At what point did it seem like a good idea to grab the toggle? And telling the student to kick? Is that part of the Tandem training? I usually take the biguns and have had this happen quite a few times. Ya get good at flying the openings with semi worn Precision and Icarus mains. Part of the job, a LOT do this. Not sure I agree with the procedure but, chopping and saving 2 lives is always a wise call.....

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linestretch

You did did read the part where it said they don't have brake settings...right? I didn't release the brakes. I tried turning the canopy out of the twists. For what it's worth, pretty sure I turned it the wrong way.



Missed that. Thanks. That's why I leave any tandem stuff to the TIs and stay out of the way. I'll bow out now.
:)
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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There's been a more than a few posts on this, but here goes....


The use of Precision/Icarus tandem mains require specific training for the TI's in the event of line twists where the tandem pair ends up facing o the rear of line of flight. One saddled the students legs often come infront of the pair, much like they are seated in a chair. The aerodynamic forces resulting from a full flight deployment make swinging the pair out of line twist to be a very difficult job for the instructor. Here's the solution:

1. Ask the student to bring their legs back into the "arched" position.

2. The instructor kicks opposite the direction of the twists. Do not have the student help.

3. Once the first half twist is out, the kicking is unnecessary, if the TI simply sticks one leg out forward when they are rotating "downwind", and pulls that leg in when they are rotating "upwind" the twists will clear easily.

Don't waste time pulling toggles, or twisting risers to get the "twists lower".

8500 tandems, and uncountable times using this system has cleared flat and stable line twists for me EVERY time.

Diving and spinning line twists are a different story.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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baronn

At what point did it seem like a good idea to grab the toggle? And telling the student to kick? Is that part of the Tandem training? I usually take the biguns and have had this happen quite a few times. Ya get good at flying the openings with semi worn Precision and Icarus mains. Part of the job, a LOT do this. Not sure I agree with the procedure but, chopping and saving 2 lives is always a wise call.....


Canopies that open in full flight are very difficult to get out of line twist. I know and have used all three of the meathods Linestretch tried. Kicking out and having the student help kick out, If you pull the "right" toggle sometimes the canopy will just unspin itself and lastly bringing the twist down into the risers(the closer the line twist are down low most of the time the pressure of the harness wanting to spread will untwist it. He tried all three and none of them worked and by my book he did the only thing left to do. Great Job JJ, nicely played.
Kirk
He's dead Jim

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TheCaptain

***At what point did it seem like a good idea to grab the toggle? And telling the student to kick? Is that part of the Tandem training? I usually take the biguns and have had this happen quite a few times. Ya get good at flying the openings with semi worn Precision and Icarus mains. Part of the job, a LOT do this. Not sure I agree with the procedure but, chopping and saving 2 lives is always a wise call.....


Canopies that open in full flight are very difficult to get out of line twist. I know and have used all three of the meathods Linestretch tried. Kicking out and having the student help kick out, If you pull the "right" toggle sometimes the canopy will just unspin itself and lastly bringing the twist down into the risers(the closer the line twist are down low most of the time the pressure of the harness wanting to spread will untwist it. He tried all three and none of them worked and by my book he did the only thing left to do. Great Job JJ, nicely played.

See Diablo's comments.
Or, if all of that seems to be to hard to remember or deploy at the time, simply ask your student to "stand up". If both of you can get "neutral" then there's nothing to wind vane and you'll untwist. I've had one with half a dozen twists, and total suspended weight of over 450 lbs. So flying relatively fast. Due to another issue in freefall, we ended up open above 8000'. I worked and worked at kicking, and by 6000' was worn out. I decided to rest, and take a minute to contemplate my options, chopping being one. Believe it or not, at that point I remembered reading about the wind vane issue related to line twists with tandem canopies in full flight on dropzone.com. I asked my student to "stand up", I did the same, almost like magic we started turning, and were under a landable canopy in about 30 seconds. Obviously a much better option than chopping the thing! Try it, you'll like it!
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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