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piisfish

NZAerosport TFX 250

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That sure would be fun...
but I want to see them (especially the passenger in shorts and no shoes) demonstrate some slower landings, and landings on bumpier LZs, plus off-landings in scrub, a ploughed field etc. ;)



I'd say Yankees GM Cashman should consider himself lucky he wasn't landing under one of those!

B|B|B|
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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Where I work presently used to have 275 xbraced Icarus canopied. Evidently those who like them really liked the, they flew like a sports canopies, iniate turns with front risers but could also be conservatively. However they stopped using them, so I am told, because some people were not wanting to use them. We land on the beach with super tight landing areas and nothing really in the way of outs...

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So if the most common injury to tandem passengers is broken/sprained ankles, and it comes from them planting their feet in the ground, why would you want to give them an extended opportunity to do that at a high speed?

If they decide to plant their feet at any point in the swoop, it's going to be bad. If they find they can't keep their legs up (all the way and perfectly straight), it's going to be bad.

Even if the TI does everything right, all these landings do is give the passenger more of an opportunity to make an even bigger mistake than before. On a straight in, or shorter swoop landing, they have far less time and opportunity to make that mistake, but even then, they manage to get their feet down at just the wrong moment.

It looks cool to see such a larger canopy swooping, sure, but for the passneger, any landing under a modern tandem canopy is going to be excoting. They all have a fairly good forward speed and descent rate (as per the passengers perception) and a strong flare. Ask them after a jump, and mnay passnegers will tell you they thought they were going to crash at a high speed until the last second, and then the canopy just 'stopped', and they had a soft landing, and this is on a 350+ sq ft canopy. It's enough for them, and that should be the measure of what is 'enough'.

When you want to decide what is 'enough', pay for your own jump.

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So if the most common injury to tandem passengers is broken/sprained ankles, and it comes from them planting their feet in the ground, why would you want to give them an extended opportunity to do that at a high speed?

If they decide to plant their feet at any point in the swoop, it's going to be bad. If they find they can't keep their legs up (all the way and perfectly straight), it's going to be bad.

Even if the TI does everything right, all these landings do is give the passenger more of an opportunity to make an even bigger mistake than before. On a straight in, or shorter swoop landing, they have far less time and opportunity to make that mistake, but even then, they manage to get their feet down at just the wrong moment.

It looks cool to see such a larger canopy swooping, sure, but for the passneger, any landing under a modern tandem canopy is going to be excoting. They all have a fairly good forward speed and descent rate (as per the passengers perception) and a strong flare. Ask them after a jump, and mnay passnegers will tell you they thought they were going to crash at a high speed until the last second, and then the canopy just 'stopped', and they had a soft landing, and this is on a 350+ sq ft canopy. It's enough for them, and that should be the measure of what is 'enough'.

When you want to decide what is 'enough', pay for your own jump.



Well said. Having a student put their feet down early during one of these landings is going to become trouble. Our job is to protect the unknowing (ignorant), and give them the safest possible experience.

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

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+1

I've jumped just about every tandem main that's ever been used in a Sigma rig. Icarus of all sizes, Aerodyne, HOP, Sigma, etc.....

I've enjoyed the smaller swoopy ones from a personal standpoint, but here's the deal..... IT'S NOT ABOUT ME.

The safety of the student is paramount even if it's contrary to what they THINK they want.

Our responsibility is to them and the safety of the sport.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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afaik these canopiies( I thought they were 285's though so dont know if these are the ones I am thinking of or new ones) are in operation at dzs with very high winds like guam and hawaii.

having seen thousands of 330's being hooked in in high winds and turbulence and seeing thousands of tandems being landed 'traditionally'. in the high winds and turbulence I will take the power and pressurisation that comes with the turn over the mushy semi-collapsing straight in approaches.

having said that not everyone should be allowed fly their tandem canopy like that. If you have the skills for it I do think its a better landing but unless you are a top of the ladder canopy pilot on your own canopy you shouldnt be messing with these types of approaches with a tandem imo. personally I dont have enough experience to do it myself but I do believe in certain conditions and with the right pilot it is a safer landing.

/flame gear on

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in certain conditions and with the right pilot it is a safer landing



The problem is that the conditions you're talking about are higher winds. So you're making a trade-off, and not for the better. In no way is a higher speed landing a good thing for tandems, and I know for sure that people jumping these canopies are not putting them away when the winds are light, and only using them when the winds pick up.

On top of that is the idea that higher winds equal more energy and less stability in the air. Anything that's going to go wrong is only going to happen harder or faster in higher winds, and simply downsizing to stop yourself from backing up is not a 'prudent' choice in a tandem environment.

Maybe when the winds are too high for jumping a 'normal' tandem canopy, it's just time to hang up the rigs for the day?

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in certain conditions and with the right pilot it is a safer landing



The problem is that the conditions you're talking about are higher winds. So you're making a trade-off, and not for the better. In no way is a higher speed landing a good thing for tandems, and I know for sure that people jumping these canopies are not putting them away when the winds are light, and only using them when the winds pick up.

On top of that is the idea that higher winds equal more energy and less stability in the air. Anything that's going to go wrong is only going to happen harder or faster in higher winds, and simply downsizing to stop yourself from backing up is not a 'prudent' choice in a tandem environment.

Maybe when the winds are too high for jumping a 'normal' tandem canopy, it's just time to hang up the rigs for the day?



So first of all I concede to your higher experience, but for arguments sake.

its not necessarily higher winds I am talking about although they will certainly help in those conditions, its more turbelence that I think it makes a difference in. I have seen 330's and 365's fold up on straight in approches due to turbelence, I have been flying my tandem canopy in full flight and watched one side fold up and then reinflate at about 200ft. Now maybe this isnt anything to worry about, everytime I have seen this the canopy has reinflated immediately with no apparent loss of control or heading, but it can be scary looking.

Now, is the tfx cross braced? the fx is afaik. I assume to help with the high wingloading that is is but I could be wrong. If it is then it should go through turblence like a knife through butter.

The other thing that seems to happen in turblence is getting dropped out on final and not having enough flare to stop it. now this could be pilot error in many cases but I have seen this happen to very experienced people. My guess would be that with the higher wingloading you get better penetration and stability in turblence and also more speed, speed = lift and lift = a soft landing.

I am not saying I am right I am just wondering why this reasoning is wrong?

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its not necessarily higher winds I am talking about although they will certainly help in those conditions, its more turbelence that I think it makes a difference in.

I am not saying I am right I am just wondering why this reasoning is wrong?



Same reason it was wrong when you were talking about higher winds. The answer is not to find a smaller canopy and hope it can cut through the turbulence, the answer is to stop doing tandems until the turbulence has subsided.

You're not a solo jumper making your own choices, you're a TI making a choice for yourself and a completely uninformed student who is trusting you with their health and well-being.

The other difference here is the lack of ability to PLF. There is little you can do to mitigate your injuries if you should have a hard landing. You cannot PLF with a student attached to you, and they cannot PLF because they don't know how.

The very mechanics of landing a tandem pair is dependant on a soft, slow touchdown. This is the only way to manage getting two people who are attached to each other on the ground and to a complete stop in a safe and relaible fashion. You cannot reasonably guarantee that when you jump in conditions that require to downsize to cope with higher winds and turbulence.

You likewise cannot guarantee that when you come ripping in on a high-speed, 100ft swoop. That's 100 ft where the pax could plant a foot (or feet) and send the two of you tumbling.

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They all land fine with zero wind, with passenger weighing at 240 lbs.

Eventually they all slow down to same speed as icarus 300 or 330 would do.

Obviously Ti is very experienced pilot and got sick of flying non x-braced canopy.

After 15000 tandem canopy flying, these guys can handle fx250 or even smaller with no wind, with 220 lbs passenger and would stand up those landings. with NO WIND.

If you can not stand up the landing with 300 or 330 almost every single time regardless of wind condition, you probably have no business flying fx's.
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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Obviously Ti is very experienced pilot and got sick of flying non x-braced canopy



The solution is to stop doing tandems, not introduce a new level of risk that the students are unaware of.

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Eventually they all slow down to same speed as icarus 300 or 330 would do



No, they don't. Stall speed increases with wingloading, it's an aerodynamic fact. The 300s and 330s are very efficient canopies, to the point that I would expect very similar stall speeds from an x-braced canopy of similar size. Given that, there's no way that a 250 will slow down as much as a 330.

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If you can not stand up the landing



Again, it's not about you (the TI). It's about the student and what they can/can't do. Seeing as the vast majoroty are making their first jump, nobody knows what they can/cannot do, so any plan that requires them to perform in any way is asking for trouble. If you can't safely land with them unconscious, you're flying the wrong canopy.

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I can. I don't jump in the dark, and I don't jump when it's snowing and the dz is closed. I've been at it for 18 years, jumping every year, and averaged just over 300 jumps/year. Not hard to imagine jumping every weekend for 8/9 months per year.

Wow, with all that jumping somehow I had time to learn simple math too, I'm super impressed with myself.

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Can any one explain how this "davelepka" guy has 5400 jumps, but yet still finds to time to write to page long replays to seemingly every thread? Go skydive dude!



Obviously Dave is perfectly capable of defending himself, but I will add that I find the whole "shut up and jump" attack to be weak sauce.

Most of us have lots of free time during the week, and we choose to spend/waste it different ways. I would much rather Dave spend some of it here than watching Family Guy reruns or SportsCenter.

I like Dave's long replies. He has strong opinions, but unlike other experienced jumpers with such opinions, he backs his up with some reasoning. You may disagree with it, but at least you have points to debate.

In contrast, I find one-liner posts like "You're an idiot", or "Can I be on your ash dive" or "Let me know where you jump so I will never go there" to be less constructive. If you are going to shit on someone's life choices, at least be like Dave and give them some detailed/well reasoned thoughts on why.
It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

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Than I guess my eyes are wrong dude.

I see fx250's fly all day long and they all(as in both ti and student) stand em up all day long with or without wind, from 99lbs student to 240 lb, and I'd say 250's slows down better than the 300 for sure, slows down just as slow as 330 would with more flair power left.

X-braces are SAFER canopy in the hands of experienced pilot.

Just like doing bigger turn is safer than doing a 90 for experienced pilot.


Now where do we draw the line???
I definitely think that doing less than 1000 tandem jumps a year would NOT qualify you for this wing nor having less than 5000 tandem jumps.

Now tell me, with your aerodynamic fact and knowledge. How can I slow down my Velo 75 just as slow as my other specter 120 and I seem to get softer landing on much smaller ve 75???
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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There is no way that deliberately INCREASING the level of difficulty of a landing doesn't result in an INCREASE in the danger to the passenger.

If you can guarantee with 100% certainty that the instructor will never, EVER mess up a swoop then maybe there would be a point, but then they'd be better then every skydiver who has ever lived.

Ian Drennen said in a recent post "It is an inevitability of swooping. I don't know a single pilot (in the top groups) who hasn't skipped at least once. "
Now what happens when you skip with a passenger attached to you...

If you can't do that, then you have no right as an instructor to pass on the heightened level of risk to a passenger - no matter how small you may think that increased risk is. It's irresponsible, selfish and unprofessional.

There is no rational reason other than arrogance why people would think it is appropriate to perform a high performance landing with a passenger attached.

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