taking tandem students wingsuiting

[davelepka 4]

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As long as they are both fully aware of the risks

Ok, I'll bite. How is it that both could possibly be aware of the risks when tandem wingsuiting is untested?

Again, where and when were the test jumps completed with two experienced jumpers? What possible problems or malfunctions were intentionally induced, and what were the procedures developed to remedy them?

The simple answer is that it is impossible for both participants to know the risks because nobody knows the risks, let alone a tandem student.

The standard tandem skydive is designed such that the student is required to do nothing in oder for the jump to proceed safely. To back this up, the military does them with large, angry dogs, and other simialrly sizes cargo parcels. The point is that any rated tandem instructor should be able to safely deploy a drouge, main, and land the pair, regardless of what the student is doing.

The reason for this, as anyone who has done or shot video of tandems will tell you, is that you never know what a student will do. You can never tell in advance how they will react to freefall, so the system is desgned that no matter what the do, the TI can do their job, and get the pair safely on the ground.

With a drouge-less wingsuit tandem, we do not know if this is the case. The presence of the suits may allow the student more authority over the pair, and reduce the authority the TI has. In this case, the safety of the jump would rely on the students performance, and you cannot conduct tandem jumps on that basis. That's why they're tandems, they require very little training, and have zero performance expectations.

AFF style training is not the answer either. We have all seen AFF students with 10 jumps or more simply go to shit. Either spinning out of control, or losing altitude awareness, it happens.

If you intend to conduct a tandem jump where the performance of the passenger is key to the safety of the pair, you need to use a proven, experienced jumper. If you intend to conduct wingsuit tandem jumps, you need to prove that the students performance is not key to the safety of the jump by using a proven, experienced jumper to test that theory.

[ShayneH 0]

I will agree with nearly everything you said, Dave. It's just a little aggravating to not only see an idea get shot down before testing stages, but to receive such heavy opposition for no other reason than 'people dying is bad for the sport.' A reason which is contradictory to the very nature of skydiving.

As for agreeing with 'nearly everything,' I still must stick to my original point -- regardless of how dangerous, and tested or not, people should be able to do as they please in pursuit of happiness, as long as that pursuit doesn't jeopardize others.

And I do think you can explain the dangers to them. A tandem student already has an exaggerated notion of the danger. When an experienced instructor then tells them they are going to add an exceeding amount of danger on top of risk that already exists, plus the unknown variable that stems from not testing it, I think they'll get the point.

I guess it's really more of a freedom issue than something limited to skydiving. I just get annoyed when person A tells person B that they can't do something that has no repercussions on person A, or person C - Z for that matter.

[Skyper 0]

When it comes to decisions "safety" or "money making" you can guess for yourself who is gonna win. It has nothing to do with "freedom".

Who is going to pay for the insurance policy and who is going to ensure those tandem passangers? There is no insurance company that would accept to cover that kind of risks. And if they get injured or die who is gonna cover their health costs? Again... It has nothing to do with "freedom".

[skyrider 0]

More than untested , so we can't judge yet, It is testd , what happeens of tandem goes into a spin, with no droug out , and it is left up to the student to save them by pulling?The student can;t reach the reserve...It was a stupid stunt to pull with a student!

this pair would have went in, they went to at least 6 grand, (pulled the droug in a cloud with at least 6 others chasing them)

Any one of those people chasing them could been knocked out, so he endangered them too!

If it had been an experience wingsuiter, "playing student" (and has anyone checked to see if it was or not) I'd see no problem with it!

If doing something new with Tandems wasn't dangerous, why do all TI's have experienced jumpers play student for them , instead of real students , to get thier rating?

[DSE 3]

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As for agreeing with 'nearly everything,' I still must stick to my original point -- regardless of how dangerous, and tested or not, people should be able to do as they please in pursuit of happiness, as long as that pursuit doesn't jeopardize others.

But it does have repercussions on others.
Tandems are already managed/legally different than a standard skydive. And if, just if...someone burns in, it'll have an impact on skydiving at a variety of levels.
Tandem skydiving is already "dangerous" enough without making it more "exciting." If they wanna fly a wingsuit, then let the student get to the point that they are 100% self-responsible.
Innovation is great, I'm a big believer in it. But there are "stunts" and there are things that can be made commonplace. Tandem wingsuiting carries too many uncertain elements.
I do not believe you can explain the risks to the average tandem student. They do not understand the risks they're dealing with as it is; they just know "I'm jumping from an airplane and it might kill me." But they don't understand sidespins, won't understand flatspins, and it's silly to try to explain it because they *still* won't cogently get more than "I'm gonna make a skydive."

Keep tandems as a "training tool" (amusement park ride) and we'll keep the government out of our sandbox, but it would be a difficult argument to suggest that tandem wingsuiting is a training tool when industry practices demand 200 jumps before putting on a wingsuit.

[dgskydive 0]

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Seriously? They're whuffos jumping out of an airplane that think a parachute wont even open if not properly packed right. If anything, they exaggerate the dangers in their own mind.

Exactly. Instead of worrying about the real dangers, they have no clue as to what can really kill them. They have no idea.

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This is about as hypocritical to your own point as it gets.

You don't get it.

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Or do you think that they did it anyways out of love of the sport and a vision of making it safer?

If your talking about the wingsuit TI. explain to me how these jumps are making the sport safer? How is doing wingsuit tandems that have not been tested by manufactures or experienced jumpers showing love for the sport? Seems reckless and ego driven. If they really want to progress the sport, you test it as much as humanly possible. Figure out what can go wrong. Then figure out*** how to handel it BEFORE you put a student in that extra danger.

Dom

[Ron 7]

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I guess my question to everyone is: why does the risk matter to you? As long as they are both fully aware of the risks, and they are not jeopardizing the safety of anyone else, let them do as they wish.

If two exp people want to do this... no problem. But there is very little chance you are going to be able to explain to a FJS the dangers that are added in a way that they will really understand.

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The ONLY reason I can fathom for not allowing such a stunt would be the preservation of dropzones in a sue-happy country.

Add in the preservation of skydiving in an increasingly Govt regulated society and you are starting to see the reasons why many oppose this sort of stunt.

Again, two "up jumpers" wanna do this? Get a blessing from the tandem company and have a ball.

Edit to add:

RE: Doms comment about people falling out of gear.

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This is about as hypocritical to your own point as it gets. Do you think that these guys listened to people gripe and tell them how dangerous it is? Or do you think that they did it anyways out of love of the sport and a vision of making it safer? *Flash forward to today*

Do you know WHY new materials and methods were created to prevent people from falling out? Because people fell out and died.

There were two camps back then as well:

1. Those that thought we should not be taking people without additional measures.

2. Those that thought they were skilled enough and that the knowledge base was sufficient.

After a few PAX fell to their deaths the 2nd camp reluctantly agreed with the first camp.

So are you saying we should wait till someone dies before making a decision?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[bart 0]

Agreed, well said!!

[bart 0]

Haven't you heard bro, Strong rymes with wrong!!! If you ever got a strong rating and didnt hand it back immediately upon jumping any other piece of tandem equiptment then you definately have rocks in your head

[bart 0]

Funny enough at the funny farm in Australia has seen some tandem swooping too. Funnier again by the same guy everone is whinging about in here, the footage I saw had Jon King on the front, NZ aerosports test jumper. It was on a TFX285 so little more than dirt water dirt and I must say was executed beautifully.

Knowing the TM in this case and the circumstances involved I think we have little trouble with this becoming a commecial thing. If not just for the fact that there just is not enough and probably never will be enough people with the skill, experience and want to do this sort of stuff. Time will tell of course.

I must say we seem to be forgeting that the outcomes were not bad at all. No body did get hurt, they were stable through out free fall. If fact it was executed very well. (alot more than I can say about some other tandem wingsuits I have seen!!)

The fact is and no one seems to want to admit it but the success was a testement to the skill and experience of the instructor involved. I know the man and have spent years working with him. Not only a highly skilled and experienced tandem master AFF instructor and wingsuit flyer and swooper, but an excellent rigger aswell!! the Tandem passenger had 16 tandems. It was not her first time!! Whether you like to believe it or not, he didnt get lucky!!

It really is unfair to accuse someone of being reckless when you dont really know the circumstances or the thought that went into it.

Im not saying that everyone should do these things at all, far from it. But the fact is people will come along in our sport and do stuff, the rest of us just dont think possible safely. Everyone sees the world from our own eyes, which is cool but just remember others see it with there own too. What does this mean, if something is beyond you you see it as unsafe. It doesnt mean its beyond someone else. Its really simple.

As far as litigation goes, it aint the states, THANK GOD. Our waiver in Australia has actually stood up in court meaning if you sign them then there is no payout!! If your from the USA you might want to consider that if you want to jump down here. That actually occured in a student case nearly 10 years ago!! I find it funny that even though it was done safely, and the passenger had a great experience that some muppet would still sue the Tandem instructor, WTF are you serious. That attitude really hasn't helped anyone in society at all.

I just think its time you gave the guy a break. His ego isnt that big if it was he'd be on here giving his opinion like the rest of us!!

[normiss 622]

Cool.
So long as someone has "mad skills" and nobody gets hurt, it's ok.

[jumpwally 0]

I don't see the point of a jump like this,,,just a "look at me" type event,,,i'll be willing to bet thats an experienced jumper playing passenger....

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[dgskydive 0]

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The fact is and no one seems to want to admit it but the success was a testement to the skill and experience of the instructor involved. I know the man and have spent years working with him. Not only a highly skilled and experienced tandem master AFF instructor and wingsuit flyer and swooper, but an excellent rigger aswell!! the Tandem passenger had 16 tandems. It was not her first time!! Whether you like to believe it or not, he didnt get lucky!!

See you prove the point. Its all about his skill and experience. He is a skilled TI, he is a skilled swooper, He is a skilled wingsuit flyer, He is an excellent rigger.

I can show you 100's of "skilled" guys that are dead right now despite those impressive skills.

The passenger had 16 prior tandems. Big deal. That makes them experienced? Would you let a newbie jumper with 16 jumps fly a wingsuit?

YOu guys really need to check yourselves. Swooping tandems students is a really bad idea as well. Seriously. If you cant see the unnecessary additional risk that the student is being put in then you are either blind or.... just plain stupid.

You guys go have your fun. When you kill someone, I hope you sleep well at night with your super ego's over there.

Dom

[Freeflaw 0]

Wasn't RW considered nuts at one point?

[Skyper 0]

People are craving for attention... And some are obviously prepared to die just to get some.

Neglect all accidents made during showing off (swoop, base, camera, rw) or trying to show off (training for those activities)... and you'll end up with just a few accidents indeed.

A "quick attention win" is also an interesting phenomenon. Those are the jumps where no previous training is required - like tandem jumps.

Since tandem jumps obviously does not get enough attention anymore, let's go step further "wingsuit tandem jumps" :)

Who cares for safety if there's enough attention!

[Baksteen 84]

Giving a new example of the exact same thing (experienced people doing stupid shit) doesn't suddenly make it a good idea when a TI and a whuffo-PAX do stupid shit.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[ShotterMG 0]

Your colossal amount of arrogance astounds me. You have no idea what motivated these two adults. While you are on the Internet seeking your own attention by dogmatically denouncing these people, they are out there living their lives. Having fun. And for those who say a student cant possibly understand the risks; what complete horse shit! There are students who have engineering degrees or whatnot, who do their research and immediately understand this sport. Likewise, there are moron drooling caveman tandem instructors, who have 10,000 tandem jumps and can barely tie their shoes! .... let alone understand complex thought. A fucking monkey can throw a drogue. Many do.

[normiss 622]

Sweet. The "mad skills" argument again.

[ShotterMG 0]

Ha. Thanks for illustrating my last point. Who ties your shoes for you?

[davelepka 4]

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You have no idea what motivated these two adults

And you do? What is your connection to this that gives you the insight to know such details? If there is none, your assumption that this is not a 'look at me' stunt is as valid as my argument that it is.

If you are connected, can you verify that any sort of test jumping was done with experienced jumpers?

I don't think anyone can argue that there are a long list of 'unknowns' when it comes to wingsuit tandems. I also don't think anyone can argue that two jumpers, both with experience doing tandems and jumping wingsuits would have the best odds for being able to work out any problems that might arise.

It would stand to reason that any 'reasonable' jumper would want to investigate the situation with jumpers who are familiar with, and have experience actually using recovery techniques with both wingsuits and tandems.

To push all of that aside and take up an unlicensed jumper is not the hallmark of the 'super instructor' that you're trying to paint this guy as. Even if he has the technical skills to make the jumps, he cleary lacks the judgement required of a 'super instructor'.

A real life 'super instructor' is not the guy who will jump in the strongest or most gusty winds, it's the guy who knows when to call it quits and stay on the ground. It's easy to make the mistake that the guy still willing to jump is the superhero, but the one with the judgement and strength of character to stand down is really the more skilled of the two.

[ShotterMG 0]

your assumption that this is not a 'look at me' stunt is as valid as my argument that it is

Thanks. I agree.
Where do I paint the guy as a super instructor? I only say live and let live. You seem to lack reading comprehension.

[dgskydive 0]

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Wasn't RW considered nuts at one point?

Skydiving was considered nuts at one point. Again, this is about putting STUDENTS (Tandem Passengers) at unnecessary risk.

If they are both experienced jumpers then have fun and see what happens. It is irresponsible to risk a students life doing something that is completely unknown.

How would you feel if your Mom or Sister was talked into doing one of these types of jumps and bounced as a result? Knowing that they could have just done a legal tandem and had just a great an experience.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

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I only say live and let live

Exactly. Let the Passenger have the best chance at living. You can defend this reckless act all you want.

I dont care what type of degree a person has. They DO NOT KNOW HOW TO ACT IN FREEFALL!. A persons intelligence has nothing to do with how they will react in freefall.

By your logic. We should just let every person with an engineering degree have a license and go jump on there own from day 1. They dont need no instruction. They are smart. They have it all figured out. Do you realize how bad of an argument that is?

I have seen the type of people that you are talking about be the WORST jumpers you can imagine. DO to that fact that they "think" they have it all figured out.

Dom

[ShotterMG 0]

You don't get it. We are talking about two different things. I was talking about "understanding" the risks. You are talking about skill level. We all take on our own desired levels of risk. The risk might have been great. But if that's their choice I support it. You will say student de facto cannot understand the risk. I disagree.

And yes, if it were legal, as this jump was, and someone wanted to skydive on their own, their first jump, I would support that. What an awesome rush that would be! Good times.

[dgskydive 0]

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And yes, if it were legal, as this jump was

How was this jump legal?

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I was talking about "understanding" the risks. You are talking about skill level.

Im talking about both. Everyone understands that you can die skydiving. That is not true understanding though..

Dom