taking tandem students wingsuiting

[airtwardo 6]

Then someone figured out that you could film a drogue-fall tandem and thus was born a cool carnival ride.

I think it was more in line with TI's wanting to make more than one or two a day, which is about all ya could handle after the drougefree hammering...

That and not a lotta positive word of mouth advertising for the cervical collar student corps.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[robinheid 0]

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If I had the "many spin experiences in a modern wingsuit" that you apparently have, it would be a, well, frightening thought.

Stick to what you know, Robin.

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Jeez, grow a pair, would y'all? Yer emBARrassing me.

You should be embarrassed on this one, you don't know Jack.

Intentional flatspins are part of the safety-knowledge-growth process. Kinda like jumping a wingsuit into water. One guy thought he knew the answer to that one, too.
Untested theories are dangerous things, such as your theory of getting out of a flat spin in a wingsuit.

LOL

You are SUCH a funny guy, Douggie.. a theory is an untested hypothesis so I do indeed stick to what I actually know, which is:

a) The "modern wingsuit" position is in FACT a DELTA position... you know, legs spread approx. shoulder-width apart, arms straight and swept back at 30-45 degrees from your body, and

b) The best way to get out of any flat spin situation, wearing a wingsuit or not, is to assume a delta position.

Now, pardon me for not including the INTERMEDIATE STABILITY RECOVERY STEPS that (silly me) I assumed YOU knew through your vast experience as a freefall and wingsuit skydiving instructor:

1. Recognize unrecoverable flat spin.
2. Ball up.*
3. Reset body position into a delta.
4. Re-establish directional control.
5. Resume original position (you know, an arch in normal freefall, a more rigid delta in wingsuit freefall).

So you see, I actually DO know Jack, whereas you are apparently better acquainted with his dumber twin, Jack S***...



* Not to be confused with Sack Up, which I addressed previously in this thread.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[mccordia 73]

Where is the rest of the recovery procedure Robin?
I see step 1. Missing step 2 and 3.

Your reference to 'modern wingsuit position' sounds very 1999. There is a lot more knowledge and information out there these days...wouldnt hurt to read up a bit...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[DSE 3]

Quote

LOL

You are SUCH a funny guy, Douggie.. a theory is an untested hypothesis so I do indeed stick to what I actually know, which is:

a) The "modern wingsuit" position is in FACT a DELTA position... you know, legs spread approx. shoulder-width apart, arms straight and swept back at 30-45 degrees from your body, and

b) The best way to get out of any flat spin situation, wearing a wingsuit or not, is to assume a delta position.

Now, pardon me for not including the INTERMEDIATE STABILITY RECOVERY STEPS that (silly me) I assumed YOU knew through your vast experience as a freefall and wingsuit skydiving instructor:

1. Recognize unrecoverable flat spin.
2. Ball up.*
3. Reset body position into a delta.
4. Re-establish directional control.
5. Resume original position (you know, an arch in normal freefall, a more rigid delta in wingsuit freefall).

So you see, I actually DO know Jack, whereas you are apparently better acquainted with his dumber twin, Jack S***...



* Not to be confused with Sack Up, which I addressed previously in this thread.

I may be a funny guy, but looks ain't everything, y'know?
Seriously, name-calling is the best you can do here?

I've got the suits. I've got the rigs (just in case you don't have a non-elliptical) it's got an AAD, got video, and I've got the jump ticket for you. I have EVERYTHING you could possibly need.

COME SHOW US HOW IT'S DONE.
I'd bet everyone would appreciate and learn from video of you getting out of a real honest to god flatspin with the method you describe in a modern suit. I'd be learning something from an older, more experienced guy like you, and appreciate the opportunity.

Here's your chance to show everyone your great expertise in wingsuiting on my dime.

[davelepka 4]

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a) The "modern wingsuit" position is in FACT a DELTA position... you know, legs spread approx. shoulder-width apart, arms straight and swept back at 30-45 degrees from your body, and

b) The best way to get out of any flat spin situation, wearing a wingsuit or not, is to assume a delta position

Let's say that the above are correct, the problem is that the delta is not the only position a passenger can assume in a wingsuit, it's just one of them.

Consider the myriad of other positions a passenger could assume, the fact that the suit will probably increase the student's authority over stability, and the subtraction of the stability the drouge provides, and you can see that there are too many 'what if's' to introduce tandem wingsuiting to the general public.

There may be solutions to the problems a wingsuit could introduce, and those solutions may be good enough to allow the general public to participate, but until those solutions are formulated and tested, you can't let the gen. pop. get involved in wingsuit jumps of any kind.

[robinheid 0]

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a) The "modern wingsuit" position is in FACT a DELTA position... you know, legs spread approx. shoulder-width apart, arms straight and swept back at 30-45 degrees from your body, and

b) The best way to get out of any flat spin situation, wearing a wingsuit or not, is to assume a delta position

Let's say that the above are correct, the problem is that the delta is not the only position a passenger can assume in a wingsuit, it's just one of them.

Consider the myriad of other positions a passenger could assume, the fact that the suit will probably increase the student's authority over stability, and the subtraction of the stability the drouge provides, and you can see that there are too many 'what if's' to introduce tandem wingsuiting to the general public.

There may be solutions to the problems a wingsuit could introduce, and those solutions may be good enough to allow the general public to participate, but until those solutions are formulated and tested, you can't let the gen. pop. get involved in wingsuit jumps of any kind.

+1

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[robinheid 0]

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Where is the rest of the recovery procedure Robin?
I see step 1. Missing step 2 and 3.

Cutting away wings is for pussies and bowlers.

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Your reference to 'modern wingsuit position' sounds very 1999. There is a lot more knowledge and information out there these days...wouldnt hurt to read up a bit...

Dude, please brush up on your grammar and punctuation and maybe also read the thread, will ya?

It was that august personage the great DSE himself who used the term "modern wingsuit," which is why, you know, I put those two words IN QUOTES -- and notice also how you morphed what I very precisely wrote into your own version so you could lay a foundation for your snide remark? OOOooops.



p.s. catch you kids again next week.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[robinheid 0]

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Quote

LOL

You are SUCH a funny guy, Douggie.. a theory is an untested hypothesis so I do indeed stick to what I actually know, which is:

a) The "modern wingsuit" position is in FACT a DELTA position... you know, legs spread approx. shoulder-width apart, arms straight and swept back at 30-45 degrees from your body, and

b) The best way to get out of any flat spin situation, wearing a wingsuit or not, is to assume a delta position.

Now, pardon me for not including the INTERMEDIATE STABILITY RECOVERY STEPS that (silly me) I assumed YOU knew through your vast experience as a freefall and wingsuit skydiving instructor:

1. Recognize unrecoverable flat spin.
2. Ball up.*
3. Reset body position into a delta.
4. Re-establish directional control.
5. Resume original position (you know, an arch in normal freefall, a more rigid delta in wingsuit freefall).

So you see, I actually DO know Jack, whereas you are apparently better acquainted with his dumber twin, Jack S***...



* Not to be confused with Sack Up, which I addressed previously in this thread.

I may be a funny guy, but looks ain't everything, y'know?
Seriously, name-calling is the best you can do here?

I've got the suits. I've got the rigs (just in case you don't have a non-elliptical) it's got an AAD, got video, and I've got the jump ticket for you. I have EVERYTHING you could possibly need.

COME SHOW US HOW IT'S DONE.
I'd bet everyone would appreciate and learn from video of you getting out of a real honest to god flatspin with the method you describe in a modern suit. I'd be learning something from an older, more experienced guy like you, and appreciate the opportunity.

Here's your chance to show everyone your great expertise in wingsuiting on my dime.

Seriously? You're the guy who calls me clueless and tells me "(I) don't know Jack" -- and then you say I'M the one "name-calling" when I reflect your words back at you?

Y'all funnier than I thought...

Anyway, thanks for your generous but incorrectly characterized offer to jump with you "on (your) dime." You see, you do NOT "have EVERYTHING (I) could possibly need" to wingsuit with you because these days my only need is to have fun jumping with people I like and your offer doesn't meet those criteria so I'll pass.

Do give it a shot yourself, though. Who knows, you might learn something.

Catch you next week with the rest of the kids.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[JohnnyMarko 1]

I guess the dropzone can't be all unicorns and butterflies all the time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx0Shn5Hvpc&ob=av3nm

[Remster 24]

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I guess the dropzone can't be all unicorns and butterflies all the time

Unicorns are real bitchy, and butterflies are sluts. Pretty, but sluts.

Remster

[airtwardo 6]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sONfxPCTU0

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[JohnnyMarko 1]

[labrys 0]

Unicorns make me want to open my veins

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od2jmdkUsh4

Owned by Remi #?

[DSE 3]

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1. Recognize unrecoverable flat spin.
2. Ball up.*
3. Reset body position into a delta.
4. Re-establish directional control.
5. Resume original position (you know, an arch in normal freefall, a more rigid delta in wingsuit freefall).

Fail.

Kinda didn't think you'd take my offer, but a man's gotta have hope, y'know?
Tell ya what...you can ride my back like a pony, that'll be close to the unicorns Labrys wants. Try to hang on during a flat spin. Would be a new experience for me, too. Never done an intentional with someone on my back before. Might be kinda fun in a butterfly/pony way.

[Ron 7]

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Anyway, thanks for your generous but incorrectly characterized offer to jump with you "on (your) dime." You see, you do NOT "have EVERYTHING (I) could possibly need" to wingsuit with you because these days my only need is to have fun jumping with people I like and your offer doesn't meet those criteria so I'll pass.

So you only will talk a good game and not "sack up" and prove you are as good as you claim?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Baksteen 84]

Bagging on a persons spelling and grammar is just an oblique way of admitting they're right, you know...
You're even lamer if the baggee is a non-native English speaker.

Maar bewijs maar dat ik ongelijk heb.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[mccordia 73]

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***Where is the rest of the recovery procedure Robin?
I see step 1. Missing step 2 and 3.

Cutting away wings is for pussies and bowlers.

It is. Its also not part of any response to freefall emergencies. Ever.
Though you may disagree on a lot of things, I would suggest brushing up on wingsuit knowledge a bit if you ever go back into the sky with one.

PM-ed you some more info...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[AerialGnome 0]

Ive read through this whole thread, found it quite interesting to say the least!

I figured I would throw in my thoughts, from a different perspective, being as I am not licensed to jump, but have a few tandems, and am planning on continuing to get my A license.

I am in no way claiming my 3 tandems are any sort of knowledge base for actually jumping, or wingsuiting! SO please dont jump down my throat too much.

But from a VERY new person to the sport, this idea seems pretty cool. I understand there are A LOT of risks to this, and every other form of skydiving.

Personally, a tandem wingsuit jump would definitely appeal to me as a new jumper!!! I've always been somewhat infatuated with skydiving, thus why I did a tandem jump before I got deployed. Doing the Tandem only Fueled my desire to jump again, and so I started searching the net for video's and what not. That naturally produced me seeing wing suit video's and my reaction of "Holy crap I want to do that"!

Now that I have done a few more tandems, and have done more research into the process of what it takes to get to the level on wingsuiting this is somewhat MORE appealing.

I would LOVE the chance to fly in the sky longer than just the average freefall, via wingsuit. Thats a chance at a dream of many people! And if they could offer this as a legitimate option as DZ's, I would be all for it!!

I understand MANY things can go wrong, a lot that I have no knowledge of at this point even. But I dont think something like this should be shunned so heavily before testing etc... My impression of the skydiving world was of MOST of them wanting to try new and innovative jump ideas, Like falling with a car from the sky etc.... and this getting such a Bad rap seems kind of counter to that impression... I do understand both sides of the argument though, if this was a new jumper.

In my very uneducated opinion, I don't see harm in trying to develop tandem wingsuiting. There is going to be risk involved obviously, and thus should have parameters trying to govern that risk during its development as much as possible. But If you can find the right people to do the testing, go for it!

Obviously there will be more at play than just finding the right people, like legalities and such... But those things can probably be worked through if a big enough push from the industry? I think it would be a great way to draw more people towards the sport.

and maybe these people putting it out there that they are doing it regardless of all else, will maybe light a fire for the harness manf. to try and come up with a tandem wingsuit harness? or maybe start the negotiations at least lol

Soo here is some input from a ULTRA NOOB. I know a lot of you will probably be smacking yourselves in the face at reading this. BUT I am trying to stay humble as I am acknowledging my inexperience and ignorance about skydiving. I thought it may be interesting for some of the more experienced people to see if from someone with basically none, and to further this conversation positively, and maybe end the name calling for a while.


ok so there is my .02!

You never know, until you find out!

[normiss 620]

At the very least you do realize you don't know what you don't know.
If you had the experience, knowledge, and understanding, I'd hope you would see the added risk simply isn't worth taking.

[robinheid 0]

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1. Recognize unrecoverable flat spin.
2. Ball up.*
3. Reset body position into a delta.
4. Re-establish directional control.
5. Resume original position (you know, an arch in normal freefall, a more rigid delta in wingsuit freefall).

Fail.

Then why don't you, in your apparently all-knowing wisdom, educate us here instead of using the playground tactic of "nyah-nyah-nyah, I know something that you don't know!"...? I'm sure many people following this thread would like to know.

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Kinda didn't think you'd take my offer, but a man's gotta have hope, y'know?
Tell ya what...you can ride my back like a pony, that'll be close to the unicorns Labrys wants. Try to hang on during a flat spin. Would be a new experience for me, too. Never done an intentional with someone on my back before. Might be kinda fun in a butterfly/pony way.

You know what, DWE, I'll take you up on the latter offer for sure. It would certainly be fun, and who knows, I might actually like you in person.

As for your original offer, after pondering it for a while, I'm open to that as well, but with one condition:

Ten jumps, not one.

The reason: I haven't jumped a wingsuit for a long time, so I need to take it slow, not jump right into showing you how it's done -- or learning from YOU how it should be done.

Video it all, including the ground school, including everything, so we can both show everyone how it indeed should be done. Edit it together into a nice little package and you'll have a nice learning tool for know-it-all noobs and know-it-all old farts alike (and maybe everyone else too).

One caveat though: You may be disappointed in the outcome. I'm a very good listener and a very abrupt point conceder, so don't get your hopes up that I'll stick to my guns no matter how "wrong" you may prove me to be. If you do, I'll acknowledge it and change.

I actually wrote in SKYDIVING years ago about a circumstance very similar to this tht involved swooping: I was practicing for a swoop meet on my lightly loaded, fast-recovery arc Stiletto and after one pretty-low-by-necessity approach turn, Luigi Cani told me I'd kill myself if I kept doing what I was doing. I started to "explain" to him what I was doing and he cut me off and said: "If you won't want to listen to what I have to say, then I'm not going to talk to you any more" -- and walked away.

I pondered that for a while, watched some of the better swoopers do their thing for a while -- and then withdrew from the comp and spent the event watching and learning instead. Got a lot of compliments for that story too -- for it being a roadmap on how to park your ego and learn instead of defending your position to the death (or serious injury).

Anyway, if you can expand your offer to 10 tickets instead of 1, you are ON and thanks for the offer... I think it will indeed be fun and maybe even create something valuable for others.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[robinheid 0]

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Anyway, thanks for your generous but incorrectly characterized offer to jump with you "on (your) dime." You see, you do NOT "have EVERYTHING (I) could possibly need" to wingsuit with you because these days my only need is to have fun jumping with people I like and your offer doesn't meet those criteria so I'll pass.

So you only will talk a good game and not "sack up" and prove you are as good as you claim?

Thanks for your kind words about my "game," but you better get out that remedial reading comprehension book, ol' buddy. or back off on your meds: I never in this thread claimed that I was "good" at anything -- only that the delta position (the DEFAULT position when wearing a wingsuit) is the basic flat-spin recovery position.

Your testosterone taunt is sorta silly too -- definitely anti-safety. As I recall, don't we always preach to noobs and old farts alike that trying to "prove" something to anyone is a great way to hurt or kill yourself or others?

Beyond that, I gotta circle back to your reading comprehension: I said to "grow a pair" to the peeps whining about how inordinately, catastrophically, earthshakingly dangerous it was to do tandem wingsuiting -- and I don't recall that DWE included a tandem wingsuiting component anywhere in his generous offer to me -- although that may indeed be a fun additional component to that offer, which I have conditiionally accepted.

Try again, cupcake.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[robinheid 0]

Quote

Bagging on a persons spelling and grammar is just an oblique way of admitting they're right, you know...
You're even lamer if the baggee is a non-native English speaker.

Maar bewijs maar dat ik ongelijk heb.

Hey Baksteen,

I completely reject your premise and conclusion, BUT I concur that it's lame to to bag on someone's English when they're a non-native speaker.

SO, apologies to you on that score mccordia, although I must add that it wasn't deliberate -- you write English so well I thought you WERE a native speaker thereof -- I didn't notice where you were from until Baksteen came to your defense.

Had I known that, I would have phrased my response a little differently, but I stand by its content: You manufactured a quote by me -- that was clearly a quote made by someone else and referred to by me -- in order to bag on me, and in the future you need to have your ducks in a row a little better if you're goin g to try that.

BTW, I too wonder what exactly DWE means by the term "modern wingsuit," which -- to me at least -- means anything post-Gayardon/Birdman design, as it was the ram-air-inflated-with-no-hard-stiffeners designs of the mid-1990s that transformed the whole wingsuit thing from an almost-as-black-death-as-climbing-K2 thing to a routine recreational activity.

Suits today have evolved from those mid-1990s designs, but unless I'm missing something here, the template on which they are built is fundamentally the same.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[Ron 7]

Got it you talk a good game but are unable to back up that talk with action.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[robinheid 0]

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***Where is the rest of the recovery procedure Robin?
I see step 1. Missing step 2 and 3.

Cutting away wings is for pussies and bowlers.

It is. Its also not part of any response to freefall emergencies. Ever.
Though you may disagree on a lot of things, I would suggest brushing up on wingsuit knowledge a bit if you ever go back into the sky with one.

PM-ed you some more info...

Glad we agree on cutting away wings and glad to see that's not part of the protocol anymore.

Thanks also for your PM... I checked out your video and it's very well done (see it here).

However, it raised two questions:

1) Nothing in your video shows what sparked this sub-section of the thread -- a flat spin. I saw a variety of spins along various axes, but none qualified as what I would define as a flat spin --- face or back to earth (or relative wind), spinning around the vertical axis only. No example you show in your video is a pure flat spin.

2) Every recovery you show in your video does in fact show more or less the same thing I said is the way to regain control: Recognize it, ball up to get out of the spin-inducing position, re-establish your position, re-establish control.

Perhaps it's that"arching" part that is at issue here, but see, for an old fart like me, the delta position IS an arching position, just with arms swept back and legs extended straighter than in a box position -- you know, the EXACT position a wingsuit ("modern" or otherwise) forces you to assume by the nature of its design.

So, really, I'm not sure what all the hoohah is about... maybe you and DWE just don't know what a delta position actually is because what you show in your video is exactly what I would DO to get out of various spins -- I guess I just DESCRIBE it differently.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[robinheid 0]

Quote

Got it you talk a good game but are unable to back up that talk with action.

There you go again. Try this and then let's continue our discussion.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."