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philh

Are Ifly encouraging bad body position?

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I sometimes take first timers up the tunnel. before I take them I show the how to fly and do a very through briefing. I teach them the box position, how to turn go, up and down , forward and back etc.
A trend I have noticed recently is that when they are getting in the tunnel , the instructor forces them out of a good position and keeps giving them straight legs signal , so that they have extended legs and extended arms .
Has anyone else noticed this? If so what is going on? Why are they making my first timers unstable in this awful position?

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philh

...I teach them the box position, how to turn go, up and down , forward and back etc...


You told all that to Firstimers? Sounds like too much inputs for a first flight
Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

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I have heard iFLY instructors explain in the short training seminar to newbies to Gradually straighten their legs until they get stable upon seeing the signal to do so.

Personally and as far as my 1st flight went there is so much stuff going on in ones brain during their 1st flight that very few can remember much of the quick seminar class specifics. It took about 14 minutes for me to get stable on my belly - actually was a WOW moment for me when that bulb lit brightly.

Bottom Line - it's like coaches tell me now after almost 11 hours in the tube - it just takes time to catch on - no matter what we are working on in the tunnel.

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I have had a lot of success by taking time to explain who to fly. i dont expect people to be able to do do those moves but by understanding how to fly they often do quite well. I have flow two ways with people after only a few minutes by themselves, this is if you take the time to give them a through briefing.

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they have extended legs and extended arms .



I definitely noticed the ridiculous position with arms completely straight overhead and straight legs together. Very little roll stability with that position.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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You have to keep in mind, that the instructor's goal to let first timers fly "hands-off" as much time as possible, especially if it's going about 2 flight per 1 minutes. At least i was taught to do so, when i got my IBA instructor training. All iFly instructors i think were taught the same way, since IBA is a part of that ecosystem - SkyVenture (iFly recently) - IBA.
As an experienced tunnel instructor i'm following flyer's body reactions, and correcting body position accordingly to let it fly without my hands-on relatively neutral.

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There is a huge difference teaching first timers and teaching beginning skydivers. If you have first timers who paid for 1+1 minute of flying time, you want to maximize their flight time (flying by themselves) and to keep people safe, you turn the speed down and let people fly with really straight legs and arms. With a slow speed people cannot quickly de-arch and pop up high. If you teach them to arch (and let them fly at that speed) they can cause an issue if they panic for some reason and de-arch.

If someone wants to do pre-aff training, this creates a very bad muscle memory unless you spend some time in the tunnel flying a proper box position. Doing 2 minutes of first timer flying before AFF is imo a waste of money. However, if you follow with 10-15 of real flying skills, dedicated for what is to come in the air, then the tunnel is a great resource for pre aff training.
Bottom line, if people only want to fly 2 minutes, the first timer training is optimized for as much flying as possible under those circumstances but if you want do tunnel training as pre aff, you need to let the instructors know so that they know how to optimize the tunnel time.

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Im usually taking people to have somewhere between 4 and 10 mins. Ive never taken anyone for a 1+1 flight so i dont think that applies.
Im curious as a tunnel instructor are you taught to get people to fly with straight out arms and legs for their first few flights? or is this something that is down to the instructors discretion?

What I find infuriating is I keep seeing instructors just giving every first timers who goes in the tunnel straighten legs signals before theyve even had a chance to try a better body position.

Im wondering what recent first timer videos now say is the right position to fly. Next time I will try and watch one but if theres and ( recent ones) online, would like to see them.

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Link to Pre AFF first time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDdvYXpXfdQ seems like quite different from my standard newbie experience below https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-CW757vO60&feature=youtu.be

Communicating one's learning objective (fun vs pre AFF) would be critical. Of course doing so may require a reschedule or instructor/coach swap. New instructors may not be qualified to instruct pre AFF.

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f94sbu

There is a huge difference teaching first timers and teaching beginning skydivers. ...



Thank you very much for that explanation. It gives us a better understanding of why things are often taught that way in the tunnel. Otherwise, we might assume that tunnel training and skydiving training should always be the same.

This in particular is a very important statement:

"Doing 2 minutes of first timer flying before AFF is imo a waste of money. However, if you follow with 10-15 of real flying skills, dedicated for what is to come in the air, then the tunnel is a great resource for pre aff training."

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philh

Im curious as a tunnel instructor are you taught to get people to fly with straight out arms and legs for their first few flights? or is this something that is down to the instructors discretion?

What I find infuriating is I keep seeing instructors just giving every first timers who goes in the tunnel straighten legs signals before theyve even had a chance to try a better body position.



Hi as a iFly tunnel instructor I teach first timers very differently then someone who is a skydiver or going through AFF.

For first timers AS LONG AS THEY HAVE THEIR HIPS DOWN having arms and legs out is very stable for JUST flying around in a small tunnel. It is not a good position if you want to learn to turn, go up and down, pull, or other maneuvers. But I don't want first timers to know how to do maneuvers before they know how to be safe in there.

As stated above we keep first timers flat to keep the wind speed low. This is for safety of both the student and the instructor. I don't want first time students to go above my head because i can't communicate with them and honestly i don't want to have to catch someone from that high. You don't have to teach them this way but most do because of the safety of it all.

Also we are usually teaching a group of people so we have to come up with a way to teach the entire group something easy for them to remember. Students will forget everything you say to them between the class and the time they fly. I try and keep everything as simple as possible. They are here for an experience if they want to learn to fly they can come back for coaching and I can teach them proper body position.
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philh


Im curious as a tunnel instructor are you taught to get people to fly with straight out arms and legs for their first few flights? or is this something that is down to the instructors discretion?



I'm trying to maintain the body position as close as possible to a proper "box body position" keeping in mind body reaction to the stressful environment, what the wind flow on that speed actually is.

Quote


What I find infuriating is I keep seeing instructors just giving every first timers who goes in the tunnel straighten legs signals before theyve even had a chance to try a better body position.



This is the only way to let people feel where legs actually are. We are talking here about "body awareness", i would say. I don't know, where i've got the percentage, but there's a meaning, in the tunnel a person is missing about 90 percent of his ability to feel his body as a whole. From my experience, it looks like this, i mean this percentage. It doesn't matter, how well trained the person is. Some people could take this control over the body back very fast (a very few of them), some could't at all. So, we, instructors have to deal with a body in a very stressful environment within very short period of time and to understand how good the "body awareness" is, we are giving in the beginning as much surfaces as possible. And from this position we could slowly change the body position to desired one.
It's like jet plane on take off. It's slow, and to catch lift it needs as much surfaces as possible (flaps). Once it's airborne and picking up the speed it could stay in the air with much smaller (surface presented) wings. Just for example.

Short remark. This is just my view on the process.

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Tunnel doesn't just exist for skydivers to get training.

first timer goes to tunnel for a 2 minute fun experience, vast majority of them will never go again and would have no interest taking up skydiving as a hobby, therefore, they don't and shouldn't be asked to REALLY care about "proper" body position. As Ifly's customers, they expect and should be given as much fun as possible (safety first of course), if a proper pre-AFF training regimen were to be followed, ALL of the 2 minutes he/she would be essentially on the net and the customers didn't pay that much money to lay on a net.

Insisting on teaching first timers to fly properly is the same as asking tandem passengers to sit through a 6 hour skydiving ground school before they step into a harness. Unnecessary and would end up killing the business.

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Ding ding ding! I think this is the answer.
Faster wind equals greater chance of problem or injury.
Slower wind means you can't stay up unless you fly something a little floatier than the normal relaxed skydiver position, so they have em fly backwards a bit with their arms and forwards a bit with their legs - do that evenly and you've got lift.
IFly needs a policy that makes them able to serve genpop (anybody and everybody) with the minimum probability of problem or injury.
--
Dan Wayland
http://www.danwayland.com

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philh

I sometimes take first timers up the tunnel. before I take them I show the how to fly and do a very through briefing. I teach them the box position, how to turn go, up and down , forward and back etc.

Would you teach all this to a Cat A student before you took them up for their first jump?
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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As a tunnel instructor - having fun in the tunnel and learning how to fly your body is a completely different things. When I have a firsttimer, my goal is not to make a good flyer out of him in 2 minutes, my goal is to provide safety and fun for him. I would not waste his expensive time to make him fly perfect position, if his position is stable and he is having fun. I would never put him on the net, even briefly, if there is any chance to avoid that.

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I'm just about to embark on Stages 3 & 4 of my AFF course (stages I hear it is common to repeat), so I've spent 8 minutes in the tunnel practising stability, and am spending 8 more minutes in a couple hours' time, before getting to the DZ this weekend (assuming weather holds up).

philh

I teach them the box position, how to turn go, up and down , forward and back etc.


Although I have been taught these skills by my instructors at the DZ, the iFly instructors do reinforce these, and for the most part are consistent with my AFF instructors (thankfully).

Quote

A trend I have noticed recently is that when they are getting in the tunnel , the instructor forces them out of a good position and keeps giving them straight legs signal , so that they have extended legs and extended arms .
Has anyone else noticed this?


Have not noticed this tbh. If anything, my iFly instructors try to get me to bend my legs more - during AFF they've hammered into me that a hard arch consists of "straight legs, toes pointed", so that's how I executed my body positioning in the tunnel, which leads to a lot of forward movement in a confined area, hence I'm needing to bend my legs more to keep centred.

If I'm centred and stable, they get me to execute 360 turns. They want me to also fly up and down by de-arching (slightly, or that's how I understand it) and re-arching, but I prefer spending more time on stability so I tell them I'm happy to save those skills for later, when I get up to them in my AFF.

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JamesBond



If I'm centred and stable, they get me to execute 360 turns. They want me to also fly up and down by de-arching (slightly, or that's how I understand it) and re-arching, but I prefer spending more time on stability so I tell them I'm happy to save those skills for later, when I get up to them in my AFF.



These skills you'll need sooner rather than later anyway. Getting back to "stability" after a maneuver is more valuable to me than just holding it

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A wind tunnel is not free fall. Simple, but this seems to be a point that so many, conveniently forget.

Not saying a wind tunnel isn't a great place to practice, in fact if that's your thing it's a revolutionary place to practice.

But it still isn't the same as gravity and free falling.

There's nothing the wind tunnel can do to prepare any person with the rush of emotions and overload many experience at altitude when they actually jump for the first time. NO ONE can predict the future. That said the wind tunnel has its place, knowing what is beneficial, knowing the differences in what is required, and how tunnel flight body position is in fact different than free flight are key to real skydiving.

To answere your question, yes you fly differently in the tunnel. But for most experienced jumpers this generally isn't an issue. Notice I said experienced jumpers.
Brett Bickford Did Not Commit Suicide.

He is the victim of ignorance and faulty gear. AND as in the movie: "12 Angry Men," of an ignorant and callous jury.
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They most definitely are encouraging the wrong position imo. But as a 

From my 2, & sadly for me, bad experiences at iFly Milton Keynes,UK, it does seem that the body position encouraged, is more in line with safety than good flying. 

And it's impossible to complain or query it - there customer service is dreadful. They simply don't respond. 

It's not possible to fly the box position as a beginner, as far as I can tell, because they insist on a set speed which is too low to support it. I managed to figure that out after my first flight. Having previously done 300+ real skydives, I was able to figure that out. After 10+ years out of the sport, I had hoped it might be a sensible route back for me.

I asked them to increase the speed, but they were adamant on their ways. The body position they insist on is too unstable & rigid, especially on a speed that only just supports it. 

My 2nd flight was worse & to make matters worse they didn't film the 2nd one, despite me having pre-paid for both - so I was unable to look at it later to be sure of my theory. They only filmed a small part of my first flight too & despite several emails to complain, there was no response. I gave up in the end & sadly, that is likely the end of my indoor skydiving life & maybe the end for my skydiving in general - all because of that body position versus silly speed rules. How can I work with the air speed when it's 30% lower than it should be unless "I" fly - stiff as a board. 

Cauliflower rice - ain't rice & Halal beef-burgers - ain't beef! 
It's a bit of an insult to call it indoor-skydiving - a great marketing tool I guess, but it's a world away from skydiving. 

 

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Paul, I am sad to hear about your experience. I’ve been flying at Milton Keynes for a year now and never had any issues, but I was a complete newbie and started with the position they told me to, I didn’t mind as I didn’t know any better. It took a while for me to stop flying with straight legs, and I suppose if you don’t want to become a tunnel rat, you don’t want to spend that long on relearning. I know one thing for sure, I had tons of fun, straight legs or not and really liked the instructors at MK who know how to pump up your enthusiasm. 

Moving now between different tunnels and coaches, I noticed that first 2-4 mins they always spend on basics to test your skills before they give you higher speed. It is like skiing... a ski instructor will never take you to black slope without first testing your skills on blue, no matter what you say your experience is. They call in “let’s warm up”:)  

I wish you’d try it again, and go for 10 minutes at least, it will make a huge difference too! 

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On 2/7/2019 at 5:36 AM, dolphinka said:

Paul, I am sad to hear about your experience. I’ve been flying at Milton Keynes for a year now and never had any issues, but I was a complete newbie and started with the position they told me to, I didn’t mind as I didn’t know any better. It took a while for me to stop flying with straight legs, and I suppose if you don’t want to become a tunnel rat, you don’t want to spend that long on relearning. I know one thing for sure, I had tons of fun, straight legs or not and really liked the instructors at MK who know how to pump up your enthusiasm. 

Moving now between different tunnels and coaches, I noticed that first 2-4 mins they always spend on basics to test your skills before they give you higher speed. It is like skiing... a ski instructor will never take you to black slope without first testing your skills on blue, no matter what you say your experience is. They call in “let’s warm up”:)  

I wish you’d try it again, and go for 10 minutes at least, it will make a huge difference too! 

Kind words, but tunnel is over for me. If I can't have the speed I want to try it out, I don't trust it. I have to force a "wrong" body posi to get to a stage where they will let me progress. It's a screwed up process. But if works for the newbie/tunnel only, good luck to them. I don't recommend it at all, to experienced skydivers, sadly. 

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Hi Paul,

I’d say you have at least two more options, before you bury the tunnel flying for good. First, go to Bedford BodyFlight instead, they are more flexible and catering for skydivers (remember iFly is mainly catering for first timer fun, while BodyFlight is a skydiving tunnel). Another option if Bedford is not easy to get to, go for AFF coach. They will be with you in the tunnel and deciding on the speed, etc. And they will be concentrating on correct body position too. 

 

Good luck!

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