tunnel time vs skydive equivalency

[countzero 7]

i once heard somewhere that X amount of time in a tunnel is essentially equivalent to X amount of skydives. what are these amounts?

diamonds are a dawgs best friend

[slotperfect 7]

From a short range movement free fall time standpoint, you can logically equate tunnel time to jump numbers (although I am not the one to give you the best estimate). Bear in mind that tunnel time does NOT allow a skydiver to train on exits, lateral movement such as tracking, or canopy flight.

Arrive Safely

John

[Remster 24]

Quote

Bear in mind that tunnel time does NOT allow a skydiver to train on exits, lateral movement such as tracking, or canopy flight.

...or gear knowledge, or altitude awareness, or plane safety awareness, or ability to function with increased stimulus.

Tunnel time is awesome for learning certain skills. Its not equivalent to jump numbers IMO.

Remster

[countzero 7]

so using a tunnel to work on fall rate and body position would cost more in a dollar minute ratio than $20 per jump with a skydiving coach.

diamonds are a dawgs best friend

[Remster 24]

Quote

so using a tunnel to work on fall rate and body position would cost more in a dollar minute ratio than $20 per jump with a skydiving coach.

You tell me: depends on the tunnel price you are given, and the coaching rates you are getting for both tunnel and skydiving.

What I would say is that if your goal is to focus on body position and fall rate control, then, minute for minute, you will probably learn more in the tunnel.

Remster

[Fast 0]

Quote

Quote

Bear in mind that tunnel time does NOT allow a skydiver to train on exits, lateral movement such as tracking, or canopy flight.

...or gear knowledge, or altitude awareness, or plane safety awareness, or ability to function with increased stimulus.

Tunnel time is awesome for learning certain skills. Its not equivalent to jump numbers IMO.

No but if you take a guy with 5000 jumps and 5000 minutes of tunnel time and compare him to a guy with 10,000 jumps they are going to be at pretty damn similar skill levels. Though the latter might be a bit better under canopy.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Dazzle 0]

Quote

No but if you take a guy with 5000 jumps and 5000 minutes of tunnel time and compare him to a guy with 10,000 jumps they are going to be at pretty damn similar skill levels. Though the latter might be a bit better under canopy.

How about 500 jumps and 500 mins verses 1000 jumps and no tunnel?

[squarecanopy 0]

IMHO the tunnel is excellent for body control and learning to maneuver in a small space. There is nothing better for learning control relative to others. My time in the tunnel has enhanced my freefall control a great deal. The statements already made here about the things that can only be learned skydiving are also very true in my limited experience. Two real life examples- one of my tunnel buddies with 65 jumps and a B license went on a four way with jumpers he had never jumped with, and those three had about 350-500 jumps each. He was able to maintain his position relative to the earth and two of the others were the ones chasing all over the sky. Second, I watched my son, on his 15th skydive, sitfly and carve a circle around me while keeping an even 10 ft away all around the circle, and finish up with left and right cartwheels just before our breakoff altitude. He has about 10 hours of tunnel time. I am very proud of his freefall skills, but he flys and lands like a 15 jump skydiver. Those skills are only learned during skydiving.

Just burning a hole in the sky.....

[Zenister 0]

Quote

Quote

No but if you take a guy with 5000 jumps and 5000 minutes of tunnel time and compare him to a guy with 10,000 jumps they are going to be at pretty damn similar skill levels. Though the latter might be a bit better under canopy.

How about 500 jumps and 500 mins verses 1000 jumps and no tunnel?

that would entirely depend on how the 1000 and the 500 jumps were spent..

the key advantage in the tunnel is repeatability.. you can stop, debrief, correct the mistake, and repeat the maneuver very quickly in the tunnel where as in the sky you have a built in delay. This translates directly to shortening the learning curve..

I've used the example before, in any other sport you would have 500 hours of 'practice' in a very short period of time, and be no where near an 'expert'. In skydiving gaining that exposure time has alot of 'overhead' not directly associated with learning the physical skills.

The tunnel is a 'short cut' compared to the previous methods of learning/training. One that brings our sport closer on a par with other sports in available 'practice' time.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

There is nothing better for learning control relative to others.

Relative to others doesn't stop at 3 ft. There is way more to flying with others.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Zenister 0]

Quote

Quote

There is nothing better for learning control relative to others.

Relative to others doesn't stop at 3 ft. There is way more to flying with others.

very true the tunnel doesnt help (much) with learning to stop a high speed dive to base for example... but it IS wonderful for 'focused technique' training.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Ironmanjay 0]

So what advice would you give myself and countzero who are really new to the sport. Obviously we want to get better at the discipline we choose but if money is an issue (which it always is) where would it be best spent. On the entire skydiving experience or honing in on skills in the tunnel???

[skycat 0]

What are you goals?

Like someone else said, you won't get any better at exits, tracking, or canopy flight, but depending on the jump and who you are jumping with you may not really learn anything on the skydive itself.

If your goal is to hold your own on the skydive, I'd say get some tunnel time. If you need to work on the other things, make a skydive.

Fly it like you stole it!

[Ironmanjay 0]

Quote

What are you goals?

Like someone else said, you won't get any better at exits, tracking, or canopy flight, but depending on the jump and who you are jumping with you may not really learn anything on the skydive itself.

If your goal is to hold your own on the skydive, I'd say get some tunnel time. If you need to work on the other things, make a skydive.

Thanks for the tips
My goals are to be safe and have fun.... I would like to learn to freefly better. Also being so new to the sport everything needs improvement(exits, freeflying, canopy flying, landings)
Im just wondering everyones opinion because at the moment I could go spend 500 $ on 1 hr of tunnel time or 500$ on 26 skydives, thats what Im contemplating

[ryoder 1,390]

Quote

Bear in mind that tunnel time does NOT allow a skydiver to train on exits, lateral movement such as tracking...

I beg to differ; The first time I hopped in the tunnel with booties on I tracked into the far wall. Not something I would recommend, however.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Paige 0]

Quote

Bear in mind that tunnel time does NOT allow a skydiver to train on exits, lateral movement such as tracking, or canopy flight.

With an instructor you can practice tracking in the tunnel. You can also hook your feet onto the doors to accomplish the same thing.

Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

You can also hook your feet onto the doors to accomplish the same thing.

If it blows the wind out the door, it's also a nice way to circulate gas through the seating area.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Calvin19 0]

Quote

Quote

Bear in mind that tunnel time does NOT allow a skydiver to train on exits, lateral movement such as tracking, or canopy flight.

With an instructor you can practice tracking in the tunnel. You can also hook your feet onto the doors to accomplish the same thing.

are you being serious about this?

if you are, i dont think its really practicing tracking.
tracking is super-complicated aerodynamics problem, and is not the same while stuck to a wall inside a kitchen table sized tube with moving air.

the feeling, air movement, leg positing (holding on to the door?) body angle, AOA, all different.

[iambeav2 0]

What if someone made a tracking tunnel, used for Birdman and tracking flight training? Technically have a rectangular room, atleast big enough for 3-4 flyers, and have the vertical wind to control downward fall rate, and on ONE wall have pretty much the same technology of the ground floor, but blowing relative wind to fly into. I mean, I'm not sure how well that'd work, but everything starts w/ a what if!!

...it's not the fact that you don't appreciate what you have until it's gone...it's the fact that you don't appreciate what you have until someone appreciates it for you!

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

if you are, i dont think its really practicing tracking.
tracking is super-complicated aerodynamics problem, and is not the same while stuck to a wall inside a kitchen table sized tube with moving air.

the feeling, air movement, leg positing (holding on to the door?) body angle, AOA, all different.

This type of comment comes out all the time - there are many ways to get useful practice for any type of sport using less that "perfect" conditions. It depends more on the "athlete's ability to apply what they learn from the training" rather than the technique itself. I've found my freeflying to be greatly improved from my practice of Mantis and bootie flying - wierd, it's "completely different". (or not really different at all, depends on how you approach the learning).

certainly if you feel that way, the practice would be useless to you

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[squarecanopy 0]

Quote

What if someone made a tracking tunnel, used for Birdman and tracking flight training? Technically have a rectangular room, atleast big enough for 3-4 flyers, and have the vertical wind to control downward fall rate, and on ONE wall have pretty much the same technology of the ground floor, but blowing relative wind to fly into. I mean, I'm not sure how well that'd work, but everything starts w/ a what if!!

What if the "tunnel" was a horizontal, donut shaped tube where you really could attain forward, continuous motion? What little engineering knowledge I have tells me it could be difficult and/or costly to accomplish, but it would be fun to fly in!

Just burning a hole in the sky.....

[Bill_K 0]

Quote

Quote

There is nothing better for learning control relative to others.

Relative to others doesn't stop at 3 ft. There is way more to flying with others.

Ya, like the guy that goes low on the formation and then flies 'under' it and then does a back flip to "find" the formation. Like 30 feet or so below the formation... Anyway, that's another forum...

That aside, I've been in the tunnel several times, I went right between my level 6 and 7 of AFF and the coach had me work on body position, my pull technique and showed me how to turn with one arm on my back etc., lots of good basics!! When I went back and did my level 7 my AFFI asked what had changed, he could tell a distinct difference in my flying.

The next time I went back I was in the mid 70's in jumps and I started learning mantis. Each time I've gone in I told the coach the items that I wanted to work on. In each case they helped me learn a LOT.

I think though that the best way for me to learn a lot in skydiving is to make a lot of jumps in a short period of time. The weekends where I get to go out and make 20+ I learn a ton, where the weekends that I only get to make 4 or 5, like this one I still learn, but not nearly as fast as those other weekends.

BK