ltdiver 3
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gotcha
well, your right, although in a perfect scenario there is alot of money to be made, that won't happen until the first multi-level tunnel is built which allows for double the profit with virtually the same overhead as a single flight area.. Houston will be the first in the world to have one of those.
So that means that those tunnels should be able to beat the price on any single flight area tunnel. That should help make it affordable for everyone!
well, your right, although in a perfect scenario there is alot of money to be made, that won't happen until the first multi-level tunnel is built which allows for double the profit with virtually the same overhead as a single flight area.. Houston will be the first in the world to have one of those.
So that means that those tunnels should be able to beat the price on any single flight area tunnel. That should help make it affordable for everyone!
Paulipod 0
We are playing with the idea of running double sessions for this very reason - although not on 2 levels - we have enough area to stand 2-by-2
Nothing final, but certainly a realistic option for us.
Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk
Nothing final, but certainly a realistic option for us.
Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk
Hey Paul,
I have faith in the ethics of your operation... I know that you will maximize flyer benefit at every opportunity!
We have considered many ways to SPLIT a large diameter single flight area... it is possible with little modifications...
I have faith in the ethics of your operation... I know that you will maximize flyer benefit at every opportunity!
We have considered many ways to SPLIT a large diameter single flight area... it is possible with little modifications...
I dont know about the other new tunnel site, but the new manager of Silicon Valley (Union Landing) tunnel was at our DZ (Skydance in Davis, CA) during the FreeFly fest back in Sept. He was talking is up with anyone who would listen about how this would be a great place to train. I would tend to think that everywhere a new tunnel is going in, the marking guys are out there at the local DZ too. I could be wrong about it.
my .02
Robert
"Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying who shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, here am I, send me."
my .02
Robert
"Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying who shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, here am I, send me."
Canuck 0
Most of your math I can follow. But, 2000 operating hours per year? That's not even 6 hours a day. I think it's pretty safe to say that most tunnels are running a hell of a lot more than that. That puts the profit up considerably.
I still think tunnel time is overpriced. For an hour in the tunnel, I can do 35-40 jumps. And yes, I know there is more freefall time in an hour in a tunnel than in 35-40 skydives, but how many swoops do I get out of the deal?
As to the question how cheap would it need to be for me to think it's not overpriced - about half of what it is.
For the person that said they invested in a tunnel not to make money, but to see happy faces, might I suggest that you go do some volunteer reading at a daycare or help an elderly person across the street.
Canuck
I still think tunnel time is overpriced. For an hour in the tunnel, I can do 35-40 jumps. And yes, I know there is more freefall time in an hour in a tunnel than in 35-40 skydives, but how many swoops do I get out of the deal?
As to the question how cheap would it need to be for me to think it's not overpriced - about half of what it is.
For the person that said they invested in a tunnel not to make money, but to see happy faces, might I suggest that you go do some volunteer reading at a daycare or help an elderly person across the street.
Canuck
Paulipod 0
QuoteI still think tunnel time is overpriced. For an hour in the tunnel, I can do 35-40 jumps. And yes, I know there is more freefall time in an hour in a tunnel than in 35-40 skydives, but how many swoops do I get out of the deal?
The numbers are about right if you do everything solo in the tunnel.... but the maths works the other way if you do 2-3-or 4 way....
On a plane the costs go up... in the tunnel your costs go down.
You dont get any swoops, but you wouldnt go in a tunnel if thats what your looking for
Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk
QuoteI still think tunnel time is overpriced. For an hour in the tunnel, I can do 35-40 jumps. And yes, I know there is more freefall time in an hour in a tunnel than in 35-40 skydives, but how many swoops do I get out of the deal?
The price of 60 minutes being about equal to the cost of 35-40 skydives is only one advantage of using the tunnel to train.
It it pretty reasonable to do an hour of tunnel time in a single day, two hours if you are used to being in there a lot. If you split up the time so you do only 15-20 minutes out of each 1 hour session and take breaks between sessions (like a tunnel camp) you can end up flying a lot in a day and be making progress the whole time.
Let's say you do 30 minutes of tunnel time in one day - I have a feeling that most people would get a lot more out of this than trying to do 30 skydives in one day. Not only is the cost per minute less, but you can do a lot more of it and still have it be beneficial.
There are a lot more benefits to the tunnel as well such as the coach being able to physically shape your body, immediate feedback, debriefing quickly and being back in the chamber quickly as well as others.
No, you can't swoop in the tunnel and yes, you are entitled to your opinion of thinking tunnel time is overpriced. I'm just pointing out that there's a lot more to it than just cost per minute of flight time. It's also fun as hell
Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com
Canuck 0
Don't get me wrong - I fully realize that for those who can afford it the tunnel is a great tool. I just think for people like me, who skydive on a budget, that you get more bang for your buck doing the "real thing."
Your points are well taken about the coaching, although a good freefall coach can also give immediate feedback and physically shape body position (I do it all the time on AFF jumps). The other thing is, all the tunnel time in the world won't help you launch exits and track - two very important parts of any group skydive.
I've only ever been in an outdoor tunnel, and yeah it was a friggin blast!!!
Canuck
Your points are well taken about the coaching, although a good freefall coach can also give immediate feedback and physically shape body position (I do it all the time on AFF jumps). The other thing is, all the tunnel time in the world won't help you launch exits and track - two very important parts of any group skydive.
I've only ever been in an outdoor tunnel, and yeah it was a friggin blast!!!
Canuck
billvon 2,400
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> The good news is that the price of tunnel time will drop as saturation
>occurs.
There's a hard lower limit due to power costs. Power accounts for a significant fraction of tunnel time cost.
>Now I'm sure all the Skyventure folks will jump in and say how low their
> profit margins are - bullshit - nobody invests millions of dollars trying to
> make hundreds.
Ever met any DZO's?
>occurs.
There's a hard lower limit due to power costs. Power accounts for a significant fraction of tunnel time cost.
>Now I'm sure all the Skyventure folks will jump in and say how low their
> profit margins are - bullshit - nobody invests millions of dollars trying to
> make hundreds.
Ever met any DZO's?
billvon 2,400
>150 x 5 = 750
Power at the Perris tunnel is pretty much always less than 600kw. 500 would be a good average from the data I've seen so far.
Power at the Perris tunnel is pretty much always less than 600kw. 500 would be a good average from the data I've seen so far.
quade 3
I was basing it off the horsepower of the motors and assuming "standard" efficiency ratings. I have no real idea about how much power they actually use out of the 200 hp available per motor, but if you're saying 500 kwh as a total average, I'll take your word for it.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
QuoteMost of your math I can follow. But, 2000 operating hours per year? That's not even 6 hours a day. I think it's pretty safe to say that most tunnels are running a hell of a lot more than that. That puts the profit up considerably.
Perris doesn't run it during the daytime on weekdays - limited business but more critically a much higher power cost. They shut down at midnight, so that's a potential max of 6 or 7 hours depending on when the peak period ends.
You can bump up the average on the weekends, but I imagine it's hard to run at 100% utilization. When I was there last week for a 15, I was the only customer in the 30 minute block. The safety guy would do a minute spell in between my 2.5s, and we shutdown when I got done ... probably around 21 minutes of operating time.
I thought Paul's numbers had a lot of rounding up, but if you did end up with a $100/hr net profit, that's 200k/yr on a 2mil investment. A 10% return, after debt repayment on a 5 year schedule, isn't doing too badly. Certainly the sort of numbers that SkyVenture would talk up to sell more franchises.
Remster 24
QuoteI just think for people like me, who skydive on a budget, that you get more bang for your buck doing the "real thing."
Thats my point too. For most non-competitive jumpers on a limited money OR vacation time budget, I'd mush much rather jump out of a perfectly good airplane.
Karen and I are toying with the possibility of a tunnel camp in March, but taking the time off to just fly in a tunnel doenst appeal to much to us and we'd want to combine that with a boogie or something.
Remster
I know in my case, I was having some body flight issues. So, with my 18 jumps at the time, I went down to Perris and did 30 min of coach time. The result was; the rest of my jumps since have been much more enjoyable experance.
As everything, the tunnel is a tool in my case and I treat it as such. Yes, I would rather jump also. Will I go to a tunnel again? Sure, if I develop an issue that I (or a coach) cant seem to work out on the ground and the air.
jmho
Robert
"Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying who shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, here am I, send me."
As everything, the tunnel is a tool in my case and I treat it as such. Yes, I would rather jump also. Will I go to a tunnel again? Sure, if I develop an issue that I (or a coach) cant seem to work out on the ground and the air.
jmho
Robert
"Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying who shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, here am I, send me."
QuotePerris doesn't run it during the daytime on weekdays
Perris Skyventure in closed from 11:45am to 6:15pm Monday throung Friday for 4 month in the summer ONLY!
QuoteThey shut down at midnight,
Perris Skyventure will also operate as long as there are customers booked.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
Shark 0
QuotePerris doesn't run it during the daytime on weekdays
You must not have been there lately. I've taken students there in the mornings typically between 9 & 11.
billvon 2,400
>Perris Skyventure in closed from 11:45am to 6:15pm Monday
>throung Friday for 4 month in the summer ONLY!
Yep, and that's a power company, not a business, issue.
>throung Friday for 4 month in the summer ONLY!
Yep, and that's a power company, not a business, issue.
Quotethat's a power company, not a business, issue.
In support of what your saying, this sort of thing is more common with the types of tunnels pulling that much juice, the Open Air North Carolina tunnel, also has time restrictions, aka peak time, which forces closure during certain hours in the summer.
Not a business issue, although can cause issues with business
Paulipod 0
They should build their facilities on a wind tunnel site - where power is not an issue 
Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk
If we were as lucky as you to find a site like you did, I just would have to think I died and went to heaven.... of course the first thing I would do is open up some panels to view the outside.. can't stand the dark room syndrome.. surely you can replace SOMETHING, to get a view of the outdoors... of course if its not nice looking around there, might be better to paint a mural
I can't wait to get over there, need to time it with a trip from Gunti!
I can't wait to get over there, need to time it with a trip from Gunti!
Paulipod 0
lol.. yeah for every plus there is a minus.... maybe get fliers to wear VR goggles
Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk
Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk
billvon 2,400
>They should build their facilities on a wind tunnel site - where power is not an issue
I've been trying to get them to install solar (which just happens to peak out at the same time that they need the power) for a while now - no luck yet.
I've been trying to get them to install solar (which just happens to peak out at the same time that they need the power) for a while now - no luck yet.
quade 3
Just out of curosity . . .
How many solar panels and how much area would it take to generate 750 kw?
I know, you say it doesn't draw 750 kw, but I figure you also have to take into account some losses and the potential that they -may- want to run the motors at full power every now and then for some reason.
Also, what would the initial investment be?
How many solar panels and how much area would it take to generate 750 kw?
I know, you say it doesn't draw 750 kw, but I figure you also have to take into account some losses and the potential that they -may- want to run the motors at full power every now and then for some reason.
Also, what would the initial investment be?
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
Exactly what I was getting at. They make a profit, thus are able to keep their doors open.
There are some people on this forum who believe that tunnel owners make a HOARD of money (and actually hate the owners for it...wanting them to drop prices and 'play nice'). Yet, you and I know that their profit margin is not that large and they really -can't- do that or they'd go under.
That is what my original post is all about when I replied to Zoter.
ltdiver
Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon
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