Light students - which solution would you prefer

[Baksteen 84]

The following quote (though in the wrong context) from the 'rapid downsizing'-thread in Safety got me thinking:

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I just recently downsized to a Sabre2 120 after putting a majority of my skydives on a Pilot 150. A lot of those jumps were made with 10 pounds of lead

I often hear people argue that lighter people should jump smaller canopy's earlier in their skydiving career because else they'll be backing up on landing even with an (I don' know) 10 knots groundwind.

What's preferable to you and why -

* putting a light student under a larger canopy with several pounds of lead

* putting that same student under a smaller canopy without lead

* use the larger canopy but without lead

*something else entirely (please explain)

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[rhys 0]

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I often hear people argue that lighter people should jump smaller canopy's earlier in their skydiving career because else they'll be backing up on landing even with an (I don' know) 10 knots groundwind.

What's preferable to you and why -

* putting a light student under a larger canopy with several pounds of lead

* putting that same student under a smaller canopy without lead

* use the larger canopy but without lead

*something else entirely (please explain)

My answer would be;

* putting that same student under a smaller canopy without lead within reason. students should not be wearing lead.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[councilman24 37]

If a Manta is the standard lighter students can easily go under a Raider or other 200-220 sq. ft. canopy. But if 190 ZP canopies are standard for all students smaller students can't go much smaller. ANYTHING smaller than a 170 should be considered high performance due to lower drag and shorter pendulum length under the canopy.

So the answer depends on what canopies are being used. Wearing lead? Not an option I'd suggest unless it was built into the H/C instead of a belt or vest. Even then....?

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Baksteen 84]

Well at my DZ we're just putting lighter students under 220 Fury's.

This is purely hypothetical.


My thoughts were as follows:

Small, light jumper --> they get a small canopy (say a 170 as that is the smallest allowed.) ---> they get to jump with other people.

Result We have a 50 jump wonder with a small canopy AND lead in order to keep up with their heavier jumping buddies.
But I should have said 'novice' instead of student

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[skybytch 259]

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Result We have a 50 jump wonder with a small canopy AND lead in order to keep up with their heavier jumping buddies.

This is only a problem if the extra weight puts the jumper at a wingloading they aren't yet skilled enough to handle in all conditions.

The argument that light wingloadings hurt people because they don't penetrate into winds is, imho, bullshit. When people get hurt landing in high winds, usually their mistake was not in flying "too big" a canopy, it was getting on the load in the first place.

All jumpers should be advised to develop their own personal wind limits based on their wingloading and comfort level, and no one should NEVER be encouraged to bust their limits.

Yes, I do live in a Pollyanna world.

[humanflite 0]

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If a Manta is the standard lighter students can easily go under a Raider or other 200-220 sq. ft. canopy. But if 190 ZP canopies are standard for all students smaller students can't go much smaller. ANYTHING smaller than a 170 should be considered high performance due to lower drag and shorter pendulum length under the canopy.

So the answer depends on what canopies are being used. Wearing lead? Not an option I'd suggest unless it was built into the H/C instead of a belt or vest. Even then....?

With respect, a 190zp canopy for any student doesnt sound sensible..
baksteen -I have seen lightweight students under 220 furys like you say or at smallest a navigator 200.

[popsjumper 2]

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...The argument that light wingloadings hurt people because they don't penetrate into winds is, imho, bullshit. When people get hurt landing in high winds, usually their mistake was not in flying "too big" a canopy, it was getting on the load in the first place.

All jumpers should be advised to develop their own personal wind limits based on their wingloading and comfort level, and no one should NEVER be encouraged to bust their limits.

HEAR freakin' HEAR, 'bytch!
Dead on the money.

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Yes, I do live in a Pollyanna world.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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I often hear people argue that lighter people should jump smaller canopy's earlier in their skydiving career because else they'll be backing up on landing even with an (I don' know) 10 knots groundwind.

Maybe someone more experienced can fill us in but I don't know of ANY canopy that's going to be backing up in 10kts under any reasonable wingloading.

Forward drive is one reason why we have wind speed restrictions for students.

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What's preferable to you and why -

* use the larger canopy but without lead

INHO, students and lead don't mix well. It's not the canopy flight, it's the less-than-ideal landings.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Reginald 0]

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I often hear people argue that lighter people should jump smaller canopy's earlier in their skydiving career because else they'll be backing up on landing even with an (I don' know) 10 knots groundwind.

I’d argue the whole premise is wrong. Smaller is not better as a student. Student wind restrictions are low enough to keep any student from jumping in wind conditions that would cause them to back up.

After someone gets a license and they can make their own decisions, but they should not be jumping smaller canopies just to keep from backing up in high winds. They should not be jumping in any winds that would cause them to back up given an appropriate canopy size for their experience.

This does create a situation where light weight jumpers may not be jumping when heavier ones at the same jump numbers may be able to. So what? The weather nor the ground cares not about "fair". It is what it is.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Gary73 10]

I'd go with smaller canopy (but no smaller than 170) without lead. Lead introduces several problems, including the near certainty of drowning if there's a water landing.

A dropzone should have a decent range of student canopies so as to allow every student to have a safe wing loading. Doing that will also provide rental gear for every need, if not every desire.

Not that long ago, many DZs had nothing but F-111 Manta 288s for students. Hopefully we've all joined the 21st century by now. If a DZO isn't willing to provide good student equipment, he shouldn't be in the student business at all.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I am assuming we are talking freefall students here.....BSR's dictate that we will not dispatch a student in winds over 14mph, therefore there should never come a time when (nowadays) we are having problems with students backing up, no matter how large the canopy. Seriously, though, anyone of us with any salt knows that it used to be routine to put ALL students out under Manta 288's and the like, no matter how small and dainty they were. THANKFULLY, now we are wise enough to buy more than one size of student canopy. I am reallyt pleased with this, personally. The bottom line is that as long as you are staying comortably within under 1:1 wingload for students then you are going to be OK.

I am sure I am going to ruffle some feathers here, but who cares....I am actually a proponent of putting lead on feather-weight AFF students. Particuarly those who are flying flat as a board on Cat's A and B. They can un-fuck their arch later, after the AFF-I's are not in danger of being able to stay "up" with their biggest RW suits. In those cases "dressing for success" is a nebulous term and in my world that means (as a pretty small instructor who normally does not need to do this) hanging lead on tiny women who arch from their tits and not their pelvis (no matter how many signals you give them).

How many others of you older instructors remember putting 100 pound girls out under Manta 288's with ill-fitting harnesses? I certainly do. Thank god for DZO's with brains who recognized the need to purchase both very-small, and very-large rigs.

Chuck Blue, D-12501
AFF/SL/TM-I, PRO, S&TA

[billvon 2,772]

> They can un-fuck their arch later, after the AFF-I's are not in danger of
>being able to stay "up" with their biggest RW suits.

But they are in danger of injuring themselves on landing, when the added weight of the weight belt increases the energy they must absorb in a hard landing. We're already adding 20 pounds or so of rig+reserve; I wouldn't want to make that worse.

And of course if they land in water it could kill them very quickly.

I don't think weights on students are a very good idea overall. A better solution is to both use a range of suits and a range of AFF-I's who are capable of falling with a flat light student. Not every AFF student can be handled with a T-shirt and freefly pants, and not every AFF-I can safely jump with every AFF student.

[faulknerwn 38]

I completely agree. A typical student rig weighs 25 pounds. Adding 10 pounds of lead puts a 100 pound trying to lug around over a third of her body weight. And most tiny girls aren't army chicks used to lugging around rucksacks...

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Just to quantify my previous response: I ALWAYS dress for success. Bill, you know that I am not a big guy. If I say that I need to put a bit of lead on a tiny girl, then that means that I felt "heavy" on their Cat B in my largest RW suit. There is no such a thing at this dropzone as a "lighter" AFFI (other than maybe Sally Hathaway). Choice A is to put a bit of lead on the tiny girl. Choice B is to not let her go....It's not prudent to wear my wingsuit on an AFF jump. I hope you understand this.

Conversely, If we have a 240 pound bowling ball student, I am probably not the best person to put on a cat C/D/E unless I am wearing a jockstrap, a green beret, and a light coat of oil. It's all relative.

[theonlyski 3]

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Conversely, If we have a 240 pound bowling ball student, I am probably not the best person to put on a cat C/D/E unless I am wearing a jockstrap, a green beret, and a light coat of oil. It's all relative.

Atleast you threw in the part about the jock strap... most of the green beanies forget that one.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[wmw999 2,334]

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a jockstrap, a green beret, and a light coat of oil.

Do you have pictures of that one?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Only for you, Wendy. No fire walking this time, though....

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

This conversation actually caught my attention. It's interesting to hear what people have to say about this, and from what I gather, it's 50/50.

I went through PFF (AFF in Canadia) and would just simply like to share some of the details of that because it is relevant to the conversation. Here are some of the details:

-I weigh 115 lbs
-Was jumping a Manta 288 until jump 16 or so.
-DZ is less than 1 km from a HUGE body of water (Water gear required)
-I wore 12lbs of lead from jump 2 on whenever there was an instructor with me

Here's what I thought about the whole experience AT THE TIME:
Carrying around 12 extra pounds, as well as the 25 lb rig that didn't come close to fitting or being comfortable...was EXHAUSTING. When I was sitting in the plane and was asked to get on my knees, it was a struggle and I often needed help. Crawling around in a 182 and trying to get a good arch with the weigh wasn't easy. The theory was that the weights would help me arch harder.

Here's what I think about the situation NOW:
-Never though about the drowning bit which scares the fuck out of me
-Wish I had stood up for myself and said I was uncomfortable
-Kinda thinking I should have jumped at a DZ that was able to properly outfit me, or at least close gearwise and instructor wise. Gearwise may be tough as in Canada, since, in my experience most of the dz's are pretty much ancient in that area.

So, all this being said, I guess the question remains whether I was unsafe under the 288 or not. I think...NO. I agree with the posters who discussed wind levels and I think if the DZ respects those rules, it should be fine. I believe you are at more risk of collapse, but what students are using risers below 2 grand, or cranking a toggle turn to build up some momentum...NONE. THAT being said, there were a few times where we jumped "AT" the wind limits, or slightly beyond by the time we got to the ground and let me tell you...that makes for a scary ride under a 288 loaded at loading of about 0.5:1.

Interesting question to raise...On the TI course, you're required to do a solo, tandems have a different wind restriction, 25mph I believe? Shouldn't we be discussing the same issues here? Granted, this doesn't happen as often as student jumps, but truthfully, 25mph and a 380+ canopy is gotta be ALOT worse! Or lets bring the BASE community into this, they are jumping loadings in the .7, .8 area and seem to have no issues with this and don't tell me none of them jump into wind above student limits because I know that's BS.

Honestly, I can probably attribute some of my reasoning for rapid downsizing to this question. Not that I'm trying to justify it, but more of a "why I thought it was ok" sort of reason. It was engrained in me that I need to load a canopy more to get a better flare, avoid collapse, and backing up. I personally think that's complete BS now that I have experience and think weights should ever be used on students.

If someone 380 lbs comes to do AFF, he gets sent home. If a small cute girl (or a guy like me) comes to the DZ, where is the cutoff when the gear is too big vs too small? Where is the cutoff of the instructors saying "there's no fucking way I can fall that slow and if we lose grips, he/she is on their own? When would a DZ send a tiny student away because X DZ has 2 small AFF instructors which are capable of maintaining a slow fallrate? When would a DZ say, "WE CAN'T DO AFF WITH YOU DUE TO SAFETY REASONS, BUT WE'LL SET YOU UP VIA STATIC LINE"? I don't think this is an issue of safety of the student under canopy, this is an issue of making money from all possible sources at all costs, with minimal costs.

Sorry for the long post, and I expect flames from it, but who fucking cares, this is MY opinion!

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[pchapman 278]

All that looks reasonable to me Chris.

Weights for a student doing AFF isn't desirable at all but I can understand it being useful and being done that way.

Under canopy though, 10+ pounds of lead will be really awkward for the light student yet not make much difference in canopy loading and speed. Just not worth it for that. Better to drag out the training a bit and wait for lower winds.

Solos on tandem canopies? Shouldn't be a big problem -- doesn't happen a lot and the jumpers are somewhat experienced, although I could see the occasional tandem course being held up for a day.

Big canopies at low wing loadings? A 0.5 loading is getting really light but I'm used to F-111 accuracy canopies at .6 or so. It isn't that big a deal to jump when one is backing up at altitude and then coming down vertically to a landing. It may be very intimidating to people not used to it, but as with other things in skydiving, when one builds some experience, basic techniques make it quite doable. Big canopies aren't that bad in high winds. It's just not something one wants students to deal with.

As for actual collapses, again I'm not familiar with 0.5 loadings. But for myself or students I've seen at at 0.6, it may be a bouncy ride, but I don't see things like collapses seeming to be imminent unless there is unusually stormy weather involved or there are a lot of upwind obstacles. (It might be worse at some desert DZ's with gusty winds, however.)

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey Peter,

Of all people, I'm glad that you replied. I'm gonna pick apart your response just a little for the sake of discussion. Nothing at all against your points, and don't be offended by a noob telling a highly talented guy what to think.

10+ lbs of lead, granted will not help much under canopy, but do you really think it helps that drastically for fall rate? I mean, as a student I was flat as a board and 115 lbs. Flat as a board, 115 lbs plus 10 lbs of weight might grant me what, 2 MPH? It's the arch that needs to be focused on, I doubt the weights do anything unless you are experienced and know how to use them. I'm willing to bet I'd have more of an increase in fall rate by stuffing a pillow to round me out, than I would by adding 10lbs.

Tandems, sure in some cases they may wait, but I am leaning towards no. Think of Debbie...she's what, 100lbs and a Tandem Examiner now. She had to do a solo at one point on a tandem, winds or not that's a light loading (.25-.35 maybe?)

As for lightly loaded accuracy canopies, what's the max wind for an accuracy canopy, 8mph seems to ring in my mind? I'm sure they're jumped in higher winds than that, but you said the key thing.

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It may be very intimidating to people not used to it, but as with other things in skydiving, when one builds some experience, basic techniques make it quite doable.

Point and case, students don't have that experience.

I'm not sure if you were there the day my sister was on STI's student gear and had a wind related collapse. I believe it was a manta, but I'm not positive, it was 260+ anyways. You know she's like 5 foot nothing and 110 lbs. She hit a layer of wind shear and the canopy basically collapsed 100% and did recover, but I'm willing to bet that would have never happened on a "loaded" canopy. It's on video and I'm gonna see if I can get it from her. It may be on her Facebook. Something else that's scary about students at STI is the giant wind deflector...aka the hanger.

Just some info to ponder

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[pchapman 278]

No problem Chris.

10lbs of lead on a 115lb guy might well be be a worthless attempt that just adds to landing risk for the student, or it might be enough to help lighter instructors in big suits work with the student. And as you said a good arch would help a lot too, but that can't be relied on for a student.

I don't have the experience to know for sure. But you did the PFF -- how did it work, instructors trying to stay down with you?

(The thread started about weights on light students under canopy but there has been other talk about light students in freefall too.)

Accuracy competition limits are 8m/s, basically 18 mph, at canopy level. So if the air isn't too turbulent and gusty, one can be running accuracy with some fairly strong winds up high.

It is an old issue, the one of light students only having the standard huge canopies to jump...

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Heheh...how did it work? Well, they DEFINITELY didn't have to stay "down" with me, the had to work to stay "up". Not sure if you know Cyr and Turtle, but they were my instructors and both are "roundish". (Sorry guys, no offense meant by that!)

I remember my FF speed being about 104mph throughout, and now I am easily able to fall on my belly at below 100mph.

I also remember jump 30 pretty well because Jeff Dean came up with me to just film a jump so I could take it home to show my parents. I was doing flips and barrel rolls, and Jeff still couldn't slow down enough so the video was moot. Jump #31 he put a big cotton baggy suit on as was working hard to stay that slow. I remember other coach jumps with Clive Webb and immediately after exit, he was 200 ft below me and probably 2 grand below me by deploy time.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey,

So here's the video. It's not nearly as bad as I recalled, but still an interesting example of wind on a canopy.

This was around 2000-1500 feet and the canopy was a 290ish sq ft with my sister, a 110lb girl under it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW6CNTYa9kE

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[popsjumper 2]

I polled several of the AFFIs in the area and the general consensus seems to be...

Weights on an AFF student ONLY as a last resort when no AFFIs that could fly with the unleaded (light) student are available.

Unleaded student....... sounds like gas....on an airplane....never a good idea.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Baksteen 84]

Thank you for the replies so far. Even though the thread isn't heading where I originally intended it to go, I have learned a lot from the replies so far.

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I polled several of the AFFIs in the area and the general consensus seems to be...

Weights on an AFF student ONLY as a last resort when no AFFIs that could fly with the unleaded (light) student are available.

Unleaded student....... sounds like gas....on an airplane....never a good idea.

Now, I'd like to try and get it headed where I originally intended, as Pops's reply made me see the error I made when writing my OP.

It's al due to cultural differences, i fear.

I wasn't thinking about AFF-students and had forgotten the fact that in the US you can get your A at as little as 25 jumps.

I should have said 'novices buying their first canopies', which in the Netherlands can easily be someone without an A-licence yet with over fifty jumps.

I was thinking about a light person buying a 150 or even smaller as their first canopy 'because otherwise they'll back up with low winds' and then having to add several pounds of lead to keep up with other people when doing/starting to learn RW.

I was wondering if the (perceived) effect / danger of the lead would be more pronounced with the smaller canopy - after all, on a 100 lbs person 10 lbs of lead is a 10% increase in weight.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom