Instructor Ethitcs

[slj678 0]

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The lines are drawn by experience/license. Once someone has an A licence they CAN do most anything they want. My rating does not give me authority to stop stupid. I can comment, but....
If I ask a 50 jump wonder if they want/need a gear check and they say "no, I'm OK", there's nothing I can do to force them to submit. I may push the issue depending on how well I know the jumper, but legally/ethically I have no more authority or obligation than any other jumper in this situation.
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^^^ I hope the instructors I jump with don't think like that. Yeah I have an A license now but ill be damned if I'm gonna tell somebody who has been doing this 10 times longer than I have to back off. I would hope most instructors would say how about you take your pride down a little before you get yourself killed and let me take a look. There isn't a single ounce of me that would be upset if an instructor came up to me and said hey would you mind if i check your gear real quick? Hell I welcome that with open arms because the number 1 thing I have learned so far is that you NEVER stop learning.

Whoa, Sheldon. Stop, take a deep breath, then go back and reread this thread. Maybe read s l o w l y so that you comprehend.
This isn't about what I'm willing to say or do, it's about AUTHORITY.
I can only give advice, not because I'm an "I", but because I'm concerned as a fellow skydiver. You say you'll listen. That's fine. What if you don't like my advice?
Do you want me, as an "I", to have the authority to TELL you what you may or may not do on your next jump or whether you can freefly or belly fly or what size canopy you will be allowed to jump after you've earned your license, and have the authority to ground you if you don't follow orders????
Sorry, not in my sport.
With freedom comes responsibility.
Personal responsibility for ourselves. If someone chooses not to exercise this responsibility............................................ pay the price or take up bowling!
I vote for freedom

First off with your response I can tell your not a looking to help as a "fellow skydiver". I'm not 5 and I know what I read. I think your taking your responsibility too lightly honestly. You like your freedom and I like my life. If somebody thinks they have the right to override an instructor when they have for example an A or B license then they have no business being in the sport. If you were the student that did that to YOUR instructors then so be it, but speaking for myself and a LOT of people new to the sport I have met, I believe that there is no excuse for somebody who has devoted a good portion of their life to this sport not to help and guide people that probably don't know better. I'm not at all trying to be rude to you, I just hope most people don't view this subject the way you do. If it is people lives at risk then I believe by you being an instructor you have an obligation and a duty to help those less knowledgeable than you whether they want your advice or not. If you refuse to step in when your heart tells you hey something isn't right or I would like to check that, then I'm sorry but you have no right being in a position of being an instructor. But maybe I'm a little to sane for this sport?

"I didn't know they gave out rings at the holocaust"

[popsjumper 2]

You may be missing an important point of his post.

He DID excercise his "obligation and a duty to help those less knowledgeable".

What we, as Instructors, DON'T have is the authority to ground someone to prevent them from doing anything.
We cannot say, "If you don't let me check you, you can't get on the plane."

That authority falls to the DZO and/or S&TA. Sadly for the S&TA, at many DZs his authority is either ignored or over-ridden by the DZO.

As an aside, the DZO can empower the Instructors with that capability and indeed at some DZs that happens. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen at every DZ.

As to the "freedom" idea, and I may be missing his point too...I believe what he's saying is that it may not be beneficial to the sport to have 900 dictators out there with the authority to deny you access to jumping because of any whim that may hit them.

However, in the big scheme of things, that's exactly what we have....DZOs being the "dictators". It may not be a good idea to add in all those Instructors to the mix.

It's noble that you are not one of those who would deny a more experienced person trying to help you out. Now, go out there and try to instill that good attitude in other young jumpers.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[ufk22 32]

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__________________________________________________
The lines are drawn by experience/license. Once someone has an A licence they CAN do most anything they want. My rating does not give me authority to stop stupid. I can comment, but....
If I ask a 50 jump wonder if they want/need a gear check and they say "no, I'm OK", there's nothing I can do to force them to submit. I may push the issue depending on how well I know the jumper, but legally/ethically I have no more authority or obligation than any other jumper in this situation.
___________________________________________________


^^^ I hope the instructors I jump with don't think like that. Yeah I have an A license now but ill be damned if I'm gonna tell somebody who has been doing this 10 times longer than I have to back off. I would hope most instructors would say how about you take your pride down a little before you get yourself killed and let me take a look. There isn't a single ounce of me that would be upset if an instructor came up to me and said hey would you mind if i check your gear real quick? Hell I welcome that with open arms because the number 1 thing I have learned so far is that you NEVER stop learning.

Whoa, Sheldon. Stop, take a deep breath, then go back and reread this thread. Maybe read s l o w l y so that you comprehend.
This isn't about what I'm willing to say or do, it's about AUTHORITY.
I can only give advice, not because I'm an "I", but because I'm concerned as a fellow skydiver. You say you'll listen. That's fine. What if you don't like my advice?
Do you want me, as an "I", to have the authority to TELL you what you may or may not do on your next jump or whether you can freefly or belly fly or what size canopy you will be allowed to jump after you've earned your license, and have the authority to ground you if you don't follow orders????
Sorry, not in my sport.
With freedom comes responsibility.
Personal responsibility for ourselves. If someone chooses not to exercise this responsibility............................................ pay the price or take up bowling!
I vote for freedom

First off with your response I can tell your not a looking to help as a "fellow skydiver". I'm not 5 and I know what I read. I think your taking your responsibility too lightly honestly. You like your freedom and I like my life. If somebody thinks they have the right to override an instructor when they have for example an A or B license then they have no business being in the sport. If you were the student that did that to YOUR instructors then so be it, but speaking for myself and a LOT of people new to the sport I have met, I believe that there is no excuse for somebody who has devoted a good portion of their life to this sport not to help and guide people that probably don't know better. I'm not at all trying to be rude to you, I just hope most people don't view this subject the way you do. If it is people lives at risk then I believe by you being an instructor you have an obligation and a duty to help those less knowledgeable than you whether they want your advice or not. If you refuse to step in when your heart tells you hey something isn't right or I would like to check that, then I'm sorry but you have no right being in a position of being an instructor. But maybe I'm a little to sane for this sport,

Once again, you missed the point. Freedom is YOUR freedom, once licensed, to do as you wish. You can, if you wish, jump in 40 MPH winds, once you have a license. I can tell you, and rest assured I would, that it's a stupid idea, but I can't stop you. My rating doesn't give me that authority, and I don't think it should.
Also, your posts seem to show more than a bit of attitude, i.e., that you know what I'm saying better than I do and you're not willing to go back and reread the earlier posts to see if you might have misinterpreted something. This is the type of attitude you are certainly allowed to have and is very prevalent among skydivers. So be it.
To take it a step further, I don't like your attitude toward me, as an instructor and I'm going to ground you until you show me the proper respect. Do you really want me to have that authority?

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[slj678 0]

As far as my freedom, I have the freedom to say whatever I want. And technically yes, I have to freedom to tell you to screw off, however I believe thats whats wrong with a lot of people in the world today. Not willing to listen to other people who know more. I don't have an attitude with you, I have an opinion about what you said. Was it the main point of your paragraph? NO. But I still believe you should step in and tell me no if I want to jump in 40 mph winds whether its your authority or not. But I guess you are just going to refuse to see that. So as to end this conversation I have nothing against you personally, I just believe what I believe and you disagree.

"I didn't know they gave out rings at the holocaust"

[Andy9o8 0]

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I agree that there is no legal obligation to do anything with anyone other than your student. But I think that ethically there may be.
Let me offer a hypothetical:
- you overhear two novice jumpers planning something unsafe. You express your concern but they blow you off. Do you drop it with a 'well I told them', or do you pursue it further. Sure, there is no legal obligation to stop them, but is it the right thing to do? Would you be burdened at all if one of them ended up injured or worse?

Whether there is a legal obligation to stop them, or at least try to stop them, may depend on whether that instructor is deemed to be working FOR that particular DZ (as opposed to being either a visiting independent contractor working solely for him/herself, or simply a jumper who just happens to have the "I" rating). If you're an instructor and you're deemed to be working for that DZ, or you regularly instruct for that DZ even if you might not be "on duty" at that moment, and you hear the novices planning something unsafe, you arguably have an obligation, at the very least, to warn them AND promptly inform the DZO or S&TA what they are (or were) planning to do, so that management will have the opportunity to take corrective/preventive action.

[Deisel 35]

Nope, not looking for more authourity. Yes, as a Marine I'm used to a very structured environment. Especially when it comes to the education process. What I would like to see is the roles of coaches/AFFIs revamped a little. Instructors should have a role in the development of jumpers beyond obtainng an A. That's all. After talking with a few DZOs & S&TAs, I've got a few ideas on how this could be done. I think that there is a general concensus among those that have been doing this awhile that we can do better. USPA's own data mette this out. Additionally, the USPAs efforts to keep poeple in the sport beyond an A (Parachutist) are addressing exactly what I'm talking about. It looks like USPA leaves it up to experienced up-jumpers to develop younger jumpers. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. We loose people from the sport unnecessarily when no one takes an interest in helping them out, which is why I got into coaching. So maybe it's the Marine in me that wants to see a more formalized process to go from A to D. Surely we can do this without taking the fun out and creating a bunch of DZ dictators?

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[popsjumper 2]

Man, back off a little, take a deep breath and re-think your posts. You're being defensive and not reading what's in front of you. He says he WOULD try to stop you from doing something stupid...as would 99%, I would venture to say, of all Instructors.

OTOH, maybe you're purposely being obtuse to generate debate of some sort.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[ozzy13 0]

I really think you are missing the point here. All he is saying is once you get your A. You are responsible for your self. No more mandatory gear checks, Nothing. Of course I/ you should listen to people with more experience. Not ALL do. The only one (This is my understanding of it) is the S&TA or the DZO can ground someone for safety infractions. A instructor can advise you on something but its your responsibility to listen. If it was me and the advise was not listen too and I thought they might hurt themselves or others I would bring it up to the proper people and have them talk to them. I really think thats all he is trying to say

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[ufk22 32]

This is just another symptom of the problems that all the $'s can and are causing in the sport. Another thread in this forum talks about being chewed out for shooting video while training because it means the student doesn't have to PAY a vidiot to join the jump, thereby "stealing" money from the video person.
I'm from a small, club drop zone. Most days that I'm not officially instructing I'm still working with students or low time jumpers. I can't count the number of first 4 ways, first multi-point, first anything that I've taken low timers out on, and in non-student cases I'm buying my own jump.
With so many "professionals" getting paid for so many things in this sport and the cost of jumps going up every year, it's only natural that there are a lot less "volunteer" jumps going on. I still do them.
Last spring down in Eloy, a buddy and I spent most of one day jumping with a couple of low-time jumpers from Germany. We taught them alot, and ended up getting them a couple good 4-way launches off the otter. We had a great time, bought our own jumps, got some challenging flying in (working with low-time jumpers can really test your flying abilities) and they bought beers at the end of the day.
But I guess my point is I do this when and because I want to, not because my rating obligates me to.
I still worry about more dictators in this sport, but my offer for the jumps stands.
Hoorah

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[popsjumper 2]

Your post made me smile...big time.
I need to refresh my viewpoint of life.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[AFFI 0]

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“If somebody thinks they have the right to override an instructor when they have for example an A or B license then they have no business being in the sport.”

“there is no excuse for somebody who has devoted a good portion of their life to this sport not to help and guide”

“you being an instructor you have an obligation and a duty to help those less knowledgeable than you whether they want your advice or not.”

“you have no right being in a position of being an instructor.”

License: A
Jumps: 25
Years: 1

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[slj678 0]

YEPP and all those are my OPINIONS which I believe I am allowed to have correct? Maybe I'm a little opinionated but I just wanted to see his side of it.

"I didn't know they gave out rings at the holocaust"

[slj678 0]

But I'll be quiet now because apparently people are getting upset

"I didn't know they gave out rings at the holocaust"

[zoobrothertom 5]

ufk22

Airborne! I was raised as a newby jumper in the 82nd club. I learned my skills from Golden Knights, Green Berets and regular army guys with thousands of jumps back when 2000 jumps was a true Sky God. Guys who weren't paying for jumps, nor did they expect to be paid. When they spoke, you fucking A listened!!

I've paid forward that attitude my whole skydiving 'career.'

But, I gotta disagree a little with you on the responsibilities of an I towards 'licensed' jumpers. Maybe it's my old timer's attitude towards freedom. I'll accept a gear check from anybody I know. But, But the sky is about freedom and no one is responsible but you. What you're hinting at invloves more regulation than our sport could maybe tolerate.

On the other hand, by involving myself with newby jumpers (like you), I always try to instill some common sense in folks I jump with. How to roll out a tube, do a rodeo dive, how low to smoke a downplane, how low can you go before you should "really" panic! Little shit that politically correct people avoid addressing. Stuff I was taught before PC was the mode.

The best solution is what you're already doing. Pay it forward!!

Blue skies

____________________________________
I'm back in the USA!!

[toolbox 0]

Right on dude! Most of us want to help others to stay safe,but skydiving is ,and I hope always will be big boy rules.

[andym148 2]

I've read all the post in this forum with some interest, and i can see where most people are coming from. yes people get in this sport for numurous reasons, some because they want to try something exciting and dangerous, and some to try and find that something thats missing from their life. But almost everyone i've met have quoted that they love the freedom they feel when jumping.
I jump on my weekends off from work, and as such its my time to get away from the normal grind of daily life, and what im guessing at is that most people will agree when it's my free time and MY MONEY that i'm spending, the last thing i want is some DZ "hitler" giving me a hard time telling me what i can and cannot do..... HOWEVER!!!!
In Britain under BPA rules everyone must have a gear check ( this is also A DZ rule before boarding the A/C, and you usually sign a slip of paper confirming you've been checked off and it states who checked you off). I do agree with getting a check even now, even just if it's my reserve pin and ensuring my PC is cocked. But when i'm coaching someone, i BELIEVE it's MY RESPONSIBILITY to ensure my student is set to go with all the relevant checks done. I get the feeling on here that people dont want to help or give advice to individuals, but what about the JM? In the UK, if your acting as the JM, its your responsibility to sort out the jump run and know what each group is doing and at what height there deploying at and aslo to enquire what canopy people are jumping to roughly work out the landing order. So in that away i can give advice to people on whats best for that group to achieve what they want to do, but in the safest way possible, and in a way thats not condecending to that individual/group which i think is the key.
To quote william Burke,
"No man makes a greater mistake, than he who does nothing, because he can only do a little."

At long last the light at the end of the tunell isnt an on coming train!!!

[MotherGoose 0]

I'm glad I read through this forum, some great points were made :

DSE -

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IMO, 500 jumps and the D license is where the "real" license to learn begins. Up to that point, it's mostly survival skills. After approx 500, you start to learn what you need to learn to become successful.
The responsibility to learn (and choice) are mine/yours. Once you have your A license, the only obligation is that of safety.

POPSJUMPER -

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I believe what he's saying is that it may not be beneficial to the sport to have 900 dictators out there with the authority to deny you access to jumping because of any whim that may hit them.

However, in the big scheme of things, that's exactly what we have....DZOs being the "dictators". It may not be a good idea to add in all those Instructors to the mix.

UFK22 -

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With so many "professionals" getting paid for so many things in this sport and the cost of jumps going up every year, it's only natural that there are a lot less "volunteer" jumps going on.

The "argument" that dragged on throughout this thread was so senseless. The original post by Diesel was answered well, instructors DO NOT have power to make anyone do anything. How this is being misinterpreted as instructors washing their hands of a situation is beyond me ?? Let's generalize and agree that almost all instructors will definitely give advice, offer help and safety checks and help up-and-comers make better decisions. Once those recommendations are given, thats where the buck stops, there is no "authority". If someone ignores it, that instructor is not obligated to follow that individual around and physically prevent them from doing anything. Commenting to DZO's and S&TA's is all they can do. I really don't believe there is a grey area here, once you have your "A", you and only you are responsible for you. There is a wealth of knowledge, experience and mentoring available to you, but you must seek it out and tap into it. (even though at most places I've been, its being handed to you on a silver platter)

AndyM148 - you make a good point too, the "acting" JM on a load should have control over seating, jumprun, etc. It's not exactly related to the topic though. People with instructor ratings (even coach ratings), do not own the responsibility of every up-and-comer around them. We as skydivers, are solely responsible for ourselves and "should" look out for each other, regardless of what letters are behind our names.

SLJ678 - you shouldn't feel like you've been ganged up on. You should look out for me, just as I should look out for you. No one in this forum ever said that they don't care about students or up-and-comers. Responsibility and blame are ridiculously touchy subjects in this sport, especially when a fatality is involved. Just keep an open mind to some of the great comments and advice that have been written here.

- cheers !

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[skypuppy 1]

I think maybe we are all missing the mark here. Seems to me that in this case the instructor was getting paid to teach the low-time jumper how to do wingsuit jumps.

In my mind, if you are getting paid for something, there is no excuse NOT to check equipment etc.

Indeed, if you are getting paid for it, it is your responsibility...

This is not a case of a solo jumper walking up to the plane by himself to do a jump by himself -- his instructor was being paid to look after, before the jump, during the jumps (as much as possible) and after the jump.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[MotherGoose 0]

Rob, I've lost track of the 15 pages of posts for that fatality : Wingsuit Fatality Post .

Diesel's original question was : Based on the Sebastian wingsuit incident, I would like to start a related discussion. At what point are 'instructors' no longer responsible for others around them?

Thats where I feel there have been many good posts here. Ultimately, what SHOULD or shouldn't be done by others will not keep you alive. YOU, following your pre-A training that teaches you to ALWAYS ask for gear checks prior to boarding and in the plane; that is what ULTIMATELY will save your life. 100 jumps getting on a wingsuit ?? Some have proposed that everyone but the deceased was responsible for his death. What this discussion touches on is that for the most part, novices dont push limits, and instructors steer you in the right direction and don't make mistakes. BUT, if a novice is relentless in pursuing something that they know they shouldn't be doing, coupled with an instructor making a mistake (allowing the WS jump and forgetting to check legstraps), the chance of bad shit happening is exponentially increased. Thats where the NOVICE, and no one else, has to be completely on the ball and in control of their own destiny. A gear check was not requested, therefore it was not given. I hope I'm not coming across as harsh, that is not my intention.

When you receive your A license in the mail and you sign that card (SOLO in Canada), that is a contract. That contract states that the governing body feels that you have completed the minimum requirements for self-supervised skydiving. The other end of that contract is your signature that certifies that you understand your responsibility to yourself and the sport as a self-supervised skydiver.

I understand if we're talking about students, but we're not. People don't take their licenses seriously enough. You have to be accountable to yourself. The guy didn't die from a wingsuit, he died because his legstraps were not on . . . First Jump Course training - How to don your gear.

(again, I apologize if the tone of my message seems harsh)

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[skypuppy 1]

You do not sound harsh at all, but

When you receive your A license in the mail and you sign that card (SOLO in Canada), that is a contract. That contract states that the governing body feels that you have completed the minimum requirements for self-supervised skydiving. The other end of that contract is your signature that certifies that you understand your responsibility to yourself and the sport as a self-supervised skydiver.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I would change that to read when a senior jumper accepts money from a junior jumper to teach him how to do something, that is a contract. The contract states that the senior jumper (who should be pretty much an expert at the aspect of the sport he is concerned with) will take all measures to ensure the junior jumper gets a safe introduction to that aspect of the sport, which includes teaching about the possibility of putting a wingsuit and rig on without having the legstraps routed properly before even getting onto the plane.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
also
I understand if we're talking about students, but we're not. People don't take their licenses seriously enough. You have to be accountable to yourself. The guy didn't die from a wingsuit, he died because his legstraps were not on . . . First Jump Course training - How to don your gear.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On your first jump course, your gear is not already mounted onto your suit. If presumably the senior jumper was a manufacturer-approved instructor, he is aware of the possibilities of not routing the legstraps properly when donning the wingsuit. And if he accepted money to coach the person through their first several jumps, then he is at fault, in my mind, ethically.

I do not want to hijack the thread, so if this is not what the original thread was about, I will shut up.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[Gato 0]

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YEPP and all those are my OPINIONS which I believe I am allowed to have correct?

I'll tell you what my DZO told me with regard to OPINION:

"NO - you are not allowed to just have an opinion.

You are allowed to have an INFORMED and EXPERIENCED opinion. That's all."


What should we, as new skydivers, do after we are licensed?

Are you afraid that you're just going to be left to your own devices once you've got your license in your hand? That's going to happen.

About 4 weeks ago, 3 of my friends and I went to a small college DZ to get our first jumps in 2009. One guy is an instructor, one is a photographer, and two of us noobs - I had 46 jumps, and he had 36.

No one told me I had to make a 5 second delay from 5k, but I know USPA's currency policy for A license-holders, and since I hadn't jumped since November 11, I wanted a stress-free skydive for my first jump of the year. It was a great jump. My personal choice.

There was also no one to tell my friend with 36 jumps that he shouldn't attempt a 4-way launch out of a Cessna when he hasn't jumped since November, AND he has a few problems launching a linked 2-way, AND it's a new LZ he's never seen before - near a river. He survived without incident. Should someone have tried to stop him? Maybe so.

It's ALL up to you. Period. No one is under any obligation to tell you shit once that license is in your hands. If you're not prepared to not have someone there to stop you killing yourself, then perhaps you shouldn't try to get off student status.


(As stated, I am a noob, and I don't know shit.)

T.I.N.S.

[MotherGoose 0]

Well said GATO, you really have to think outside the box when you are new to the sport. You don't immediately see things the way they really are, and you struggle to understand them (my personal experience). But with time, you get it. You can begin to understand the statement that UFK22 made earlier :

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With freedom comes responsibility.
Personal responsibility for ourselves. If someone chooses not to exercise this responsibility............................................ pay the price or take up bowling!
I vote for freedom

We must maintain a balance between bureaucracy and freedom in this sport. We can't allow a few individuals to evoke great change and affect the greater population of the sport who do not need to be spoon fed everything.

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[Baksteen 84]

Knowing what you know, you could have reminded him. Instructor or no, we should watch out for each other.

---

In addition to that, I got my A at 91 jumps.
By one school of thought in this thread I needed extensive supervision at jump 91, but magically became self reliant at jump 92?

Like someone said upthread, the A-licence is a demonstration of a minimum skill set - and IMO 'minimum' is the operative word in that sentence, not 'skill'.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[MotherGoose 0]

I don't feel like re-reading the whole thread, but I don't think we are talking about skill. We are talking about completing STUDENT status and taking responsibility for yourself and your own safety. Skill is not a jump number, a license or a safety net. Again, no one is saying that once you get your "A" you are on your own. You are very much in need of further guidance and mentoring for a long time after. But don't "expect" everyone to run up to wipe your ass when you are done shitting any more. With the "A" license comes RESPONSIBILITY. To yourself and to your fellow skydiver.

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[Gato 0]

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Knowing what you know, you could have reminded him.
Instructor or no, we should watch out for each other.

You're 100% correct - and I DID discuss what I was going to do while we were on our way to the DZ. I didn't suggest that he should do the same thing as me, though. There was also an instructor sitting right next to me in the car, and he didn't suggest it, either. I'm not trying to absolve either of us of responsibility - looking back on it now, I think I should have said something.

I should clarify by telling you that this was NOT one of his instructors - he got his license at another DZ (A BIG midwest DZ). I don't know if that should make a difference. We were surrounded by instructors and coaches at the DZ we were visiting, and no one asked to see my license, my logbook, or my rig. All I had to do was sign the waivers and assume responsibility for my own safety.

I'm one of those weirdos who actually reads the SIM, and I take it upon myself to find out what the uppers are doing, all the hazards I might encounter, potential thermal locations, and anything else jumping at an away-DZ (or home!) might entail. Oh, and I'd like to know a bit about the plane and pilot, as well!

There's so much to know and experience in this sport. I think I understand now, why some veterans call us tourists until we're in the 500-jump range.

I agree with you, we should watch out for each other.

T.I.N.S.