riggerrob 558 #1 December 19, 2001 How many dropzones are still offering a pure AFF Program?The whole concept of a freefall from 10,000' on the first jump was never very popular with Canadian instructors and I hear that more and more American DZs are offering some form of tandem progression.Also, for DZs that offer both pure AFF and tandem progression, what percentage of students do pure AFF? How well do pure AFF students perform compared with tandem progression students, or static-line progression students?The big question is how many students graduate pure AFF vs. tandem progression? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #2 December 19, 2001 SD Atl does both AFF and Tandem progression. Most students do AFF. We have a few that have come for 1 tandem and then started AFF from there. I think static line is a dieing breed here in the US. Not a lot of DZ's do it anymore. Some because the don't regularly fly Cessnas anymore. Others just because AFF is faster and gets more customers to pay there money and move on quickly. Which makes a better skydiver in the end? That first one or two jumps off the static line is always scary for me to watch. I didn't have any problems but I saw a student die momentarily because of a main reserve entanglement (We brought him back). Due to an unstable deployment. I have seen all manner of flipping, spinning, low pulls, no pulls, on static line students. It just seems like a dangerous way to go to me. AFF and Tandems are a much safer way to go. "Carb Heat On....Carb Heat On.....Carb Heat On..."-Phil Polstra Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Geoff 0 #3 December 19, 2001 Pure AFF is all there is in the UK. You can do tandems first, with an alti, doing drills etc, but you'll still have to do all the levels of the AFF course.Geoff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #4 December 19, 2001 I learned in a straight AFF program. With proper gear and instruction, I don't see static line as being any more dangerous than AFF. But for economic reasons, I can see why DZs would want AFF (or tandem progression) instead of SL.JustinMy Homepage Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #5 December 19, 2001 I believe that 'pure AFF' is still an option at my DZ, though they do push perspective students towards the tandem progression.-JimHelp with cancer research here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #6 December 19, 2001 "I don't see static line as being any more dangerous than AFF"It's not the static line that is dangerous. It's the first couple jumps "off the rope" before the student learns to be stable. I have seen so much scary stuff........"Carb Heat On....Carb Heat On.....Carb Heat On..."-Phil Polstra Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
larry 0 #7 December 19, 2001 I went straight AFF, but my DZ has recently (last year) started getting jumpers to do 3 tandems then move to a modified AFF. Think they go to level 3 or 4.I’m glad I did a straight AFF, though I did experience a little sensory overload at first. -Larry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mountainman 0 #8 December 19, 2001 Aerodrome Sky Sports (a.k.a. Richmond) offers the AFF on jump #1. Last year, they required a S/L first, but for 2001, you can do jump number one AFF and not go back. -------------JumpinDuo.com...news, guestbook, and links. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #9 December 19, 2001 Sebastian offers Jump #1 as AFF.....7 levels and a hop n pop....MarcRes Firma Mitescere Nescite Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallinWoman 1 #10 December 19, 2001 I know that most of the bigger DZs are dumping S/L training in favor of AFF or a Tandem progression, but I would bet that most smaller DZs still offer or ONLY offer S/L.Do you guys think this is true?Anne"by stitches, cloth, and cord,...a god of the sky for those immortal moments."-Lindbergh Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallinWoman 1 #11 December 19, 2001 By the way, my DZ (2 C-182s and a King Air) offers S/L and a tandem progression."by stitches, cloth, and cord,...a god of the sky for those immortal moments."-Lindbergh Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #12 December 19, 2001 Here in Houston all we have is Big DZs, One does AFF (athough I heard they are switching to AFP) and it says they do S/L but I've never seen them do one, and the other does strait AFP (Tandem Progression). Having jumped at both DZs with students strait off of student status like their 1st or 2nd jump, I have to say that the AFP students hands down are better in the air and under canopy. That probably has to do though with the fact that AFP has something like 3 tandems and 19 AFP jumps though, instead of 7 AFF jumps with depending on the DZ 6 required coach jumps. My boyfriend is a JM and has tought at both DZ, and he thinks that AFP is the way to go, as long as everyone does thier jobs. Tandem masters not letting it be a ride and making the student work on those 3 tandems, and really talking to the student under canopy explaining things. As an AFP student not only do you learn turns and forward movement, you learn how to dock, and many other things. Also, as part of each jump are certain things you have to do as canopy requirments, whether it is rear riser flares or pulling on the front risers. (This is done up high) I know there are people out there who say I don't want to do a tandem, and I'll be the first to admit that the one tandem I did although it felt like a ride, and I didn't really like it, definately better prepared me for AFF, I had very little sensory overload that everyone talks about on any of my jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #13 December 19, 2001 "I had very little sensory overload that everyone talks about on any of my jumps."No shit....I had 60 some military static lines plus the 5 on a square and I still got "Brown out" on my first 10 sec delay. I couldn't see anything outside my hands. No horizon reference, no ground reference, nothing. The only way I knew I was still face to earth was the wind. I also knew I was patato chipping like crazy but wasn't flipping over......so I just watched the alti till 4,000. Pulled......forgot to check (Ripcord) for 1 or 2 sec so the PC bounced off my back several times. Then remembered and had a very snivelly opening. Watched the JM's fall away. Yes...my normal sight came back after the canopy opened...LOL I was only in marginal control on that jump. I did exactly as I was told so it went fine. A lot of students don't...with disastrous consequences....I'm not a huge fan of static line when AFF and Tandem exist."Carb Heat On....Carb Heat On.....Carb Heat On..."-Phil Polstra Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #14 December 19, 2001 hehehe...ok maybe it is odd, but I still remember cussing at the wind cuase it made it hard to do practice ripcord touches. I also remember thinking the video guy need to get out of my face....I was working DAMN IT!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sebazz1 2 #15 December 19, 2001 Some people come ou to the DZ strictly for the ride (Tandem). You'd be wasting your time trying to teach em anything. I've seen people in the AFF program get burn out cause there not having fun. All the jumps are just work. So you have to have at least one screw around back-flip out the door don't worry about pulling jump.I have never seen anyone on the west coast doing an AFP program. S/L Definately if your in the Northwest cause of clouds 360 days a year. I would be for at least one Tandem Jump before the AFF though cause flying in a pattern and canopy control just are as difficult as freefall. In freefall you got JM's - why not at least once or twice under canopy with a JM as well. But no we strictly AFF in Nor Cal.Sebazz..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lummy 4 #16 December 20, 2001 Sebazz1, where do you jump? SkyDance in Davis does either the AFP or AFF (they call it TAF and AFF). I couldn't say how what percentage is doing what, but it seems most are doing TAFhttp://www.skydance.net/sd/aff.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sebazz1 2 #17 December 20, 2001 Thats good you offer that. I don't know why we don't do it here in Monterey. We just don't.How many tandem jumps do students do in the TAF? How much is the $ diff. (AFF vs. TAF) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jbrasher 0 #18 December 20, 2001 Define 'pure AFF' Rob!I don't think too many places are doing 7 level AFF as Ken Coleman first developed it. Most do some form of AFP...I've worked at DZ's that have done Tandem progressions and those that haven't and the biggest difference seems to be that you are much more likely to have a stable student after 3 tandems (if your using single JM dives) where there was 'real' work done on the Tandems. If you don't do Tandems (or only 1) then after 3 levels of double JM dives your about the same place.6 of one 1/s dozen....Red, White and Blue Skies,John T. Brasher D-5166 AFF/I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikefarmer 0 #19 December 20, 2001 Actually, I'm at a one-cessna DZ that offers AFF and/or IAD. We do about 70%/30% IAD to AFF."It's better to be dead and cool than alive and uncool."-Marlboro Man Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #20 December 20, 2001 Hello John Brasher,It is good to hear from you again.If you remember, I referred a few tandem progression students to you back when we both worked at Hemet, California.Blue skies and Merry ChristmasRob Warner Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nick 0 #21 December 20, 2001 Yes we are doing AFF over here in the UK, I'm booked up to start on the 29th Jan.I did my first jump on SL. It was only meant to be one jump, just to scare myself stupid but I'm hooked. I didn't want to do a tandem as I wanted to be responsible for what I was doing and not anybody else.Can't say that I'd had any problems on my first jumps when I had to pull myself and I've managed to progressed to 5 seconds delays but can't wait any longer (hence the AFF).Nick Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
des 2 #22 December 20, 2001 been a s/l ,aff ,and tandem inst. for 6 yrs fulltime.used to believe that pure aff was the way to go,but after our chief instructor insisted on a tandem as level 1 aff,and being there at opening time,(they had all done an 8 hr 1st jump course),i know that 70-80% never even checked the bloody canopy till prompted,it was kinda scary.then worked at sdo in oregon for a season,who run a tandem progression programme as well as aff,i have to say my impression was that ,far more graduated thru the tandem progression, than pure aff,also saw numerous students landing all over the country,and in trees and on hangars,on level 1 or 2 aff,despite a very comprehensive aff course,and extremely competent instructors.tandem students were remarkedly more competent,although most instructors were kinda nervous on their 1st 1on 1 aff.s/l scares shit out of me, and do not recommend it to personal friends who want an honest opinion.i recommend to friends a tandem proression programme ,based purely on my experiences.des Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Watcher 0 #23 December 20, 2001 QuoteI don't think too many places are doing 7 level AFF as Ken Coleman first developed it. Most do some form of AFP...The three large Ga DZs, Skydive Atlanta, Skydive Monroe, and ASC all do a 7 jump AFF with jump 1 can be your first jump. Skydive Monroe where i learned (1000 dollars for all 7 levels) last winter was 7 jumps then the 1 hopnpop at 5000 and one at 3500 (perferebly spotting out of the cessna) at regular jump ticket price. I stretched my jumps out to the 30 day mark everytime cause i was not going to have enough money to get me to summer if i did them sooner than that, its amazing how you wont fail any levels if you know you do NOT have the money to pay for repeats. Monroe offers S/l tooJonathan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazerq3 0 #24 December 20, 2001 Our program is AFP . This includes 2 tandem jumps and five solos with an instructor. 7 jumps total !jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ducky 0 #25 December 21, 2001 My 2 cents.. I'll confirm that 7 level AFF is alive and well in GA. I am a current student of the program at ASC, 2 Jumps Left Yeeha!!!!!! I plan to do a HopnPop for my 8th and some coach jumps immediatley following. I may be changing DZs though, to Monroe. I am VERY happy with ASC, but its 1.5 hours away vs. Monroe at 30 minutes. I have made a post or 2 in this forum regarding my AFF jumps if anyone is interested in having a look.Kwak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
