Help me check my reality.

[diablopilot 2]

So I cad a conversation with a jumper today that left my head spinning.

Guy shows up at the DZ, who has apparently jumped there before, although I've never seen them and I've been jumping there daily since November.

They have 26 jumps.

No A licence.

Are a "Paragliding Tandem Instructor" with 2000 to 3000 hours according to them.

Looks to weigh about 180 to 200 before gear.

Shows up with a second hand rig with no AAD, no RSL.

Main is a Samari 150.

So the manifester checks with me to see if he can jump it. I tell them, not without an AAD and RSL. And then I add I think the main is a bad idea. The manifester goes to the jumper and informs them.

I wander over a minute later and join the conversation, to try to give a little guidance.

The jumper is not happy that he can't jump their rig, and I point out that it's because of the required safety equipment being missing. Then I mention that the canopy might be a poor choice for their skill level. Immediately the "experienced paraglider" term is directed towards me. While agreeing that there is some crossover experience I point out that not only are deployments an issue, but that the wing loading is a bit excessive.

Next thing I'm told is that the jumper really wanted to do some practice jumps with the canopy since they were going to be jumping it off a tandem paraglider next week. I point out that this is probably the wrong choice and time to do a stunt like this. The reply is argumentative referring to the 26 skydives that have gone fine so far, the paraglider experience, and 3 BASE jumps the jumper claims to have made. I mention that I think that the BASE jumps are a bad idea at their level of experience as well.

I choose to withdraw from the discussion at this point, saying I think the canopy choice is still a bad idea, and they can not jump the rig in it's current condition without an A licence. The jumper asks how they can get an A licence. Fortunately another Coach was nearby and stepped into the conversation at this point.

Shortly there after the jumper left with their gear.

So what says you all? I didn't need to suggest to the jumper that the canopy was a poor choice, but I felt it a responsibility.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[packing_jarrett 0]

Not knowing the weather conditions but it gets pretty windy at lompoc, I wouldn't say any different if that situation came on to me.

On the other hand if he really has 2000-3000 hours. Thats a lot of canopy time. (Again not knowing if the winds were nukin and if you guys had a whole bunch of other people.) I would think the canopy wouldn't be too bad for him. Personaly I've seen some low time pilots with low jumper numbers jump some pretty loaded canopies and do better than the actual owners of the canopy.

Na' Cho' Cheese

[JohnMitchell 14]

Yeah, and I've seen them hammer in, too. It only takes once, and you don't want to be there.

[diablopilot 2]

See, my thoughts were, I'd love to see the jumper get "checked" out over some jumps on somewhat larger more forgiving canopies, but to just rock up on the DZ when I've never seen ya, and none of the other instructors can rember when they were last in the air, and then get agro when it's suggested that the canopy might be a poor choice?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tombuch 0]

Quote

See, my thoughts were, I'd love to see the jumper get "checked" out over some jumps on somewhat larger more forgiving canopies, but to just rock up on the DZ when I've never seen ya, and none of the other instructors can rember when they were last in the air, and then get agro when it's suggested that the canopy might be a poor choice?

Without having been there...

It sounds like a bit of confusion about his actual experience and when (if) he had jumped at your DZ. A computerized manifest system would at least confirm when he had last jumped, and a log book would have been helpful.

I can quickly look back to last year when I was S&TA at a major DZ, and what I would have done.

1) Ask for proof of experience and license, either a logbook, instructor confirmation, or manifest record. If there was no record of a license or sign off, then I would send him to the school for continuing education and use of an RSL and AAD. He should already understand that basic requirement and should be prepared with his documentation.

2) If there was proof of a license I would reluctantly approve use of a rig without an RSL and AAD, but would make my concerns known.

3) The canopy size given weight and skydiving experience is way too small. I would not allow this jump on my watch unless he had a specific sign-off from another instructor who knew his actual abilities under a canopy.

4) The profile you write about including low jump numbers, BASE experience, and an intent to make a "special" jump from a paraglider, suggests a participant pushing things to the point of serious risk. I would be very concerned, but would also understand that whatever I did, this guy would keep pushing limits even if I didn't allow him to jump at my DZ.

5) At the end of the conversation I would probably offer to help him if he would make a couple of additional jumps on our student gear so I could evaluate his actual experience and skill level. Together we could design a program that would get him the extra experience to make the intended jump at a reasonable level of risk. I have an edge over most S&TA's in that I've made more than 50 BASE jumps, and have jumped from ultralights and blimps, and done plenty of unusual jumps including some confirmed stupid jumps that caused serious injury. That gives me the opportunity to say "been there, done that, let's look at how to do it right."

6) Bottom line...he sounds like an accident waiting to happen. I'd be happy to help him do his thing safely, but would be equally happy to see him go someplace else to jump.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[chris74 0]

Hi Diablo,
You were right because 2000 hours of paragliders doesn't qualify you for dealing a bad opening under a small, elliptical and fast skydiving canopy . It requires different skills . You were in charge of the safety and did your job . And I am not sure as PPG instructor he will authorize a student to fly a gun at the beginning so ....... Welcome to the world of the free flight
Blue skies
Chris

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

DP,

Sounds like the situation was pretty "fishy", at best and y'all and the DZ err'ed on the side of safety, so, good call.

I wasn't there, but would be currious to know... at any point did this person produce a log book or anythig to substanciate his claim that he did have 20-some jumps?


Another question... you say...

Quote

Shows up with a second hand rig with no AAD, no RSL...

...I tell them, not without an AAD and RSL.

The jumper is not happy that he can't jump their rig, and I point out that it's because of the required safety equipment being missing...

Where are you coming from with the required part?

[DougH 270]

From the BSR's... in the equipment section:

Quote

2. All students are to be equipped with the following equipment until they have obtained a USPA A license:

a. a rigid helmet (except tandem students) [NW]

b. a piggyback harness and container system that includes a single-point riser release and a reserve static line, except: [FB]

(1) A student who has been cleared for freefall self-supervision may jump without a reserve static line upon endorsement from his or her supervising instructor.

(2) Such endorsement may be for one jump or a series of jumps.

c. a visually accessible altimeter [NW]

d. a functional automatic activation device that meets the manufacturer's recommended service schedule [FB]

e. a ram-air main canopy suitable for student use [FB]

f. a steerable reserve canopy appropriate to the student's weight [FB]

g. for freefall, a ripcord-activated, spring-loaded, pilot-chute-equipped main parachute or a bottom-of-container (BOC) throw-out pilot chute [FB]

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

DP,

Sounds like the situation was pretty "fishy", at best and y'all and the DZ err'ed on the side of safety, so, good call.

I wasn't there, but would be currious to know... at any point did this person produce a log book or anythig to substanciate his claim that he did have 20-some jumps?


Another question... you say...

Quote

Shows up with a second hand rig with no AAD, no RSL...

...I tell them, not without an AAD and RSL.

The jumper is not happy that he can't jump their rig, and I point out that it's because of the required safety equipment being missing...

The FAA and BSR's require all student skydivers (non licensed) to have an RSL and AAD on their rig.



Where are you coming from with the required part?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

DP, Doug,

Quote

The FAA and BSR's require all student skydivers (non licensed) to have an RSL and AAD on their rig.

Good answer.

Where do you get the FAA part?

[Liemberg 0]

Since all the canopy gliding and piloting experience in the world are not going to help you with a high performance skydiving canopy spinning up on you during deployment due to bad body position, NO is indeed the correct answer, IMHO.

You might go as far as to ask him what part of NO he doesn't understand...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[bob.dino 0]

Quote

Since all the canopy gliding and piloting experience in the world are not going to help you with a high performance skydiving canopy spinning up on you during deployment due to bad body position, NO is indeed the correct answer, IMHO.

Indeed. Additionally, the manufacturer's stated minimum for a Samurai is 300 jumps. Further to that, the wingloading would be an issue. Particularly per Brian's own chart.

The lack of an AAD and RSL would not allow the jumper in the air in Australia, and I believe that most DZs would prohibit the jumper from getting into the air under that canopy.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

The FAA and BSR's require all student skydivers (non licensed) to have an RSL and AAD on their rig.

Wrong.

Derek

[DSE 3]

Quote

Quote

The FAA and BSR's require all student skydivers (non licensed) to have an RSL and AAD on their rig.

Wrong.

Derek

SIM Section 5: 1-3 AAD only a "strongly recommended option.

RSL's are only "recommended" but not required.

Should be noted, the FAA does not approve AADs, they merely approve the installation submitted with TSO paperwork.
In other words, neither the USPA nor the FAA require AAD's.

[tombuch 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

The FAA and BSR's require all student skydivers (non licensed) to have an RSL and AAD on their rig.

Wrong.

Derek

SIM Section 5: 1-3 AAD only a "strongly recommended option.

RSL's are only "recommended" but not required.

Should be noted, the FAA does not approve AADs, they merely approve the installation submitted with TSO paperwork.
In other words, neither the USPA nor the FAA require AAD's.

BSR's do REQUIRE an AAD for student skydivers. See 2-1(K)(2)(d)

The RSL is required by BSR's until cleared for self supervision, and can then be omitted with endorsement of an instructor. See 2-1(K)(2)(b)

FAR's don't require an AAD or static line, with the exception of tandems that must have an AAD. See 105.45(b)(3)

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[DSE 3]

I guess I'd fail an open book on that one. Just spent the past 20 mins searching the PDF of the SIM. They don't use the term "AAD" in section K, only "automatic activation device." Strange that the book uses unique nomenclature in different sections.
thanks for the correction, I thought students were required to use AAD as well, but then searching the SIM I'd convinced myself I was wrong.

[AndyMan 7]

The oddest part of this story for me is that someone who really has 2000 hours in a dangerous sport is smart enough to know his knowledge doesn't mean shit in a different sport.

For example, I don't know of any 2000 jump skydiver who did his first BASE jump using his small elliptical. No matter how big of a skygod someone is, they tend to know that they're starting over when they try something different.

People with huge bags of experience do some pretty crazy things, but they're usually smart enough to know that it's only because of those huge bags that they can get away with it.

Given the situation, I probably would've even questioned his paragliding experience. If he really was that well qualified, he probably would've been smart enough to know he was doing something dumb.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[DougH 270]

Quote

I guess I'd fail an open book on that one. Just spent the past 20 mins searching the PDF of the SIM. They don't use the term "AAD" in section K, only "automatic activation device." Strange that the book uses unique nomenclature in different sections.
thanks for the correction, I thought students were required to use AAD as well, but then searching the SIM I'd convinced myself I was wrong.

I posted the section above.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[SkyjunkySean 0]

lemme see... no license... no uspa membership... no logbook... no much de nada... sounds like no jumpy at virtually ANY dz. but what do I know I'm just a student listening to my instructors sounds like you did what any responsible coach or s&ta would do

[2cmyzx 0]

I weigh about the same and had over 200 jumps on a Sabre 2 150. I also put about 50 on a Stilletto 150. Jumped a Samurai 150 on jump #403. No one with 26 jumps should even consider jumping it! Just my opinion though but GOOD STOP!!

[diablopilot 2]

Just to point out, I never did tell the jumper that they couldn't jump the canopy. Just that it was a bad idea.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[riggerrob 558]

For example, I don't know of any 2000 jump skydiver who did his first BASE jump using his small elliptical.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hee!
Hee!
They show up at the New River Gorge Bridge every autumn, trying to calculate altitude offsets on their Cypri, adjusting their booties and full-face helmets while shuffling towards the launch point.
Bridge Day organisers gently steer those "skygods" towards manufacturers of BASE-specific equipment.
Hee!
Hee!

[popsjumper 2]

JP...my hat's off to you.

Being a hard-ass myself, I would have discussed it with him and then after his senseless argument went on for a while, I would have just point-blank said "no jumping that canopy at this DZ."

I did like the suggestion made about developing a skills program under a student canopy though.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[dorbie 0]

I just saw this.

Good call,

I'm a PG pilot, the wings are generally big and stable and lose less altitude in a turn and it says nothing about pulling or handling freefall (AAD).

Smart PG pilots would understand their limitations and unless there was a lot of speedflying experience I'd say it didn't count for enough under canopy in this case (I do think it helps you understand your wing etc.).

There is some crossover I find the sports compliment each other but you need to earn your wings in each, there's not a good transition plan.

I'd say a PG pilot with lots of hours arrogant enough to think he's OK flying a small skydiving canopy is an added risk not a reduced one.

Unless he was an experience speed flyer his paragliding canopy would have been double the area of that main, designed specifically to maintain lift in a turn and the lines would have been so long that the period of the pendulum under the wing would have been unrecognizable.

You did the right thing, one benefit of experience should be to avoid bad decisions, apparently not in his case.