sergant 0 #1 December 10, 2005 Guys, what do you think if somebody wants to substitute his freefall time by a tunnel time and take AFFI course/exam? How is it bad can be? Or not too bad, because an exam is the exam?... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #2 December 10, 2005 A supplement your freefall time, not a substitute. 6 hours of freefall is required. Tunnel time won't hurt, but will help in your slot flying. Get lots of practice with current AFF evaluators. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riddler 0 #3 December 10, 2005 You can't substitute, you need six hours of FF. However, some course directors will allow 5 hours of FF to take the AFFI course. But you can't get the rating, even after passing the course, until you have the six hours.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Canuck 0 #4 December 10, 2005 As is the case with any type of skydiving, tunnel time can for sure be an asset to your skill development, but can/will never be able to fully replace what can/must be learned by doing the real thing. The exit is often the most challenging and critical part of an AFF jump - you can't practice those in the tunnel. I do see potential for practicing student spin and inverted flight recovery in a tunnel, although I also see potential for a lot of injuries practicing these moves in such a confined space. I beleive somebody who has done the jumps to accumulate 6 hours of freefall is going to be a much better overall skydiver than someone who has spent 6 hours in a tunnel. Someone who has done both will be better than either... Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 3 #5 December 11, 2005 QuoteYou can't substitute, you need six hours of FF. However, some course directors will allow 5 hours of FF to take the AFFI course. But you can't get the rating, even after passing the course, until you have the six hours. Actually, there are quite a number of military guys out there who got their AFF tickets with four hours of freefall. They only use their ratings to assist in running their own, in-house freefall programs though and cannot touch a civilian until they have attained six hours of freefall. Same thing with tandems. There are a ton of guys around here with RWS tandem ratings who got them for "miltary use only" with as little as 200 jumps. Same rule applies: no civilian tandem passengers till they have 500 jumps. Back to the topic at hand though: tunnel time. The great amount of my 254 hours of tunnel time has been working with freefall students and doing "instructor drills". It is positively the best tool available for doing "flip over drills", blocking "students" who cork up on you, and spin stops. That and "king of the tunnel" drills where you try to steal the high safety's air. Thank god I didn't have to pay for any of that time! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites apoil 0 #6 December 11, 2005 QuoteAs is the case with any type of skydiving, tunnel time can for sure be an asset to your skill development, but can/will never be able to fully replace what can/must be learned by doing the real thing. The exit is often the most challenging and critical part of an AFF jump - you can't practice those in the tunnel. This is a good argument for a jump number requirement not just freefall time. These days with 70 second free fall times common per jump it means one can get to six hours with significantly fewer, exits, breakoffs openings and landings, all of which are important to being a good AFFI. It's not just about flying slot and catching out of control students although that's an important part. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #7 December 12, 2005 QuoteThere are a ton of guys around here with RWS tandem ratings who got them for "miltary use only" with as little as 200 jumps. Here are a couple pics when we trained some PJ's with 200 jumps out at Crows Landing. Yep, it was fun giving them ratings, as we were able to train them out of the Black Hawks, but after we pasted them to carry military passengers, they were riding 345 pound tethered barrels out of the plane. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mark 102 #8 December 12, 2005 So, um, where does the tether go when they release the drogue? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #9 December 12, 2005 QuoteSo, um, where does the tether go when they release the drogue? It stays attached to them. Some took it between the legs as the canopy inflated , but the landings were more impressive if they didn't get the tether on the outside of their legs when the barrel hit the ground. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sergant 0 #10 December 13, 2005 Guys, thanks for all of your comments. Now it's very obvious that tunnel time cannot replace amount of jumps/freefall time. Another question, just to understand/be ready, what kind of tricks use AFF examiners? I believe, that nobody is going track away right after exit? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #11 December 13, 2005 QuoteAnother question, just to understand/be ready, what kind of tricks use AFF examiners? I believe, that nobody is going track away right after exit? Now by giving you the info, how would that test your skills? Besides, all the exits are easy and the student always arches out the door. Actually, I encourage you to do work-up jumps with current AFF evaluators. They will get you upto speed. By using their "tricks" on skydives they will know what your abilities are and what you need to work on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #12 December 13, 2005 QuoteBesides, all the exits are easy and the student always arches out the door. I have just started to coach, and I have found that students just off AFF (like their 8th jump) have the most incredible changes in fall rate, especially on exits. They will give it a full arch, but if they don't like what they are feeling (stability, etc) they get huge and dearch and make it worse for a while as they think they can grab some air or something. I have never worked so hard on maintaining fall rates as in the first 10 seconds of some student jumps... And, that is with me coming in with hours of flat fly tunnel time with a good hour probably dedicated to fall rate drills with coaches... So far, my slowest coach jump has been 98 average speed (while I was wearing a slick RW and I tend to be one of the bigger/taller guys at the DZ). But I can't repeat that reliably, 105-107 in that suit is something I know I can do over and over again. Baggier or FF suits and I bet I can slow down more, but I just have not tried yet... So, I guess I previously thought, "Students have not learned to push slow or push fast fall - so their range will be limited." But I am finding that a student can really push the limits of slow fall... So, my question to AFFIs - I am going to be working towards this rating and am setting goals now so I can practice... I know slow fall is a work on as I have been told to expect the evaluators to simulate a student that is spinning and gets real tense and puts everything out making them super slow while spinning... Or the opposite... The question: If you take your average size/build student (150-200 pound guy) who walks in the door that any AFF instructor should be able to jump with - what is the range of fall rate speeds needed for AFF instruction? How slow can they go??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Canuck 0 #13 December 13, 2005 First off, dress for success (yourself and your student). Big guys get big jumpsuits, little girls get little jumpsuits. I almost always wear my freefly suit, because it's always easier to go faster than slower. Second, it's all about anticipation. If you see a major slow down in the works, it's pretty easy to match it. It's when you get complacent and your student ends up 20 feet above you that your screwed. On release dives, I tend to be in my happy place about 2 feet high of the student. From there, it's very easy to maintain position of advantage. Third, it's about knowing your limitations. I'm comfortable taking students from about 120-220. More or less than that, and I start looking for smaller or bigger instructors. Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 24 #14 December 13, 2005 QuoteI believe, that nobody is going track away right after exit? It you can imagine it, it probably has happened......Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Canuck 0 #15 December 13, 2005 I've always thought it would be pretty funny to show up as an unknown at a DZ to do level 1, deek the instructors on exit, and then put on a tracking clinic. Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #16 December 14, 2005 QuoteI've always thought it would be pretty funny to show up as an unknown at a DZ to do level 1, deek the instructors on exit, and then put on a tracking clinic. Either way, I still get paid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cruzit 0 #17 December 14, 2005 Most examiners won't deliberately screw you. But I strongly advise going to a pre-cert course just to get a feel for what it's like. For every horrible cert course skydive I had, I have a dozen more real AFF jumps which were much worse in the 10 years since I earned my rating. It took a while, but I eventually figured out the cert course really was a good thing. At the time I went through the course I had just enough FF time to get my rating...I wish I had had some tunnel time to supplement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #18 December 14, 2005 QuoteI've always thought it would be pretty funny to show up as an unknown at a DZ to do level 1, deek the instructors on exit, and then put on a tracking clinic. Canuck Can I show up with ya too... Too bad I can't freefly worth crap, because I would love to go headdown on the same jump that you went tracking... We would have to pay for the video so we could get the "you would never guess what my student just did" conversations between our instructors while they were talking us down... But, I think we would have to wait until level 3 because I don't think I could break the death grip most AFFIs give 1s and 2s... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #19 December 14, 2005 As some have said, dress correctly for the evaluator/student size, and dress your eval/student correctly. And always try to be one step ahead of your eval/student. Also, evaluators will respond to the correct hand signals during your eveluation dives, so learn to use them when they need them. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sergant 0 #20 December 14, 2005 QuoteAs some have said, dress correctly for the evaluator/student size, and dress your eval/student correctly. And always try to be one step ahead of your eval/student. Also, evaluators will respond to the correct hand signals during your eveluation dives, so learn to use them when they need them. It' a good one. Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #21 December 15, 2005 QuoteAlso, evaluators will respond to the correct hand signals during your eveluation dives, so learn to use them when they need them. About half-way through my first eval jump, Mr. Stokes was backsliding a bit...enough to put me a little out in front of him on his reserve side while my fellow candidate was in the same basic spot on the main side. The backslide wasn't bad enough to require us to use a tongue-signal, but it did have us driving somewhat aggressively. We both threw stable "legs out" signals right in front of Jay's face, at which point he completely straightened his legs. We were smoked, facing the wrong direction to hold position, but we both recognized it and even though Jay had told us before, "Grab below my elbows or knees and I WILL roll onto my back", we both grabbed wrists rather than letting him get behind us, but we did it simultaneously so he didn't manage to roll on us. On the ground, during the "time-in" debrief, I mentioned how a legs out signal means "about 6 inches", rather than something more drastic. His response, "Oh I remembered that, but since I saw TWO leg out signals, I figured I should go twice as far!" Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #22 December 15, 2005 Good lord, Jay was the best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Silverchic 0 #23 December 15, 2005 I like it! A couple of months ago we had a TM do recurrency and I thought it would just be so much fun to go up there and pretend to be the worst tandem ever! Do everything you can, foetal position, arms going everywhere etc etc...How is it that we put man on the moon before we figured out it would be a good idea to put wheels on luggage? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FrogNog 1 #24 December 16, 2005 Isn't it a lot safer to be a bad AFF student than a bad tandem student, because of the sidespin possibility? Just wondering about that sidespin thing. I'm not sure how wicked they are, but I thought they can really bite. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #25 December 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteAlso, evaluators will respond to the correct hand signals during your eveluation dives, so learn to use them when they need them. About half-way through my first eval jump, Mr. Stokes was backsliding a bit...enough to put me a little out in front of him on his reserve side while my fellow candidate was in the same basic spot on the main side. The backslide wasn't bad enough to require us to use a tongue-signal, but it did have us driving somewhat aggressively. We both threw stable "legs out" signals right in front of Jay's face, at which point he completely straightened his legs. We were smoked, facing the wrong direction to hold position, but we both recognized it and even though Jay had told us before, "Grab below my elbows or knees and I WILL roll onto my back", we both grabbed wrists rather than letting him get behind us, but we did it simultaneously so he didn't manage to roll on us. On the ground, during the "time-in" debrief, I mentioned how a legs out signal means "about 6 inches", rather than something more drastic. His response, "Oh I remembered that, but since I saw TWO leg out signals, I figured I should go twice as far!" Blues, Dave Two questions/comments... 1) Does Stokes have something there, was he really making the point that if two instructors give a signal the student may over react??? Thus, is there a best-practice procedure to have only one instructor give commands at any one time (unless it is something like pull)??? 2) Based upon my experience thus far coaching (limited), I find that sometimes even the most clear hand signal (legs out) does nothing... So I would have thought evaluators would sometimes not respond at all to signals to see how you deal with it... But from everyone I talk to, they always say the evaluators will respond... I guess we can't be that lucky with real students, huh??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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Shark 0 #2 December 10, 2005 A supplement your freefall time, not a substitute. 6 hours of freefall is required. Tunnel time won't hurt, but will help in your slot flying. Get lots of practice with current AFF evaluators. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #3 December 10, 2005 You can't substitute, you need six hours of FF. However, some course directors will allow 5 hours of FF to take the AFFI course. But you can't get the rating, even after passing the course, until you have the six hours.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #4 December 10, 2005 As is the case with any type of skydiving, tunnel time can for sure be an asset to your skill development, but can/will never be able to fully replace what can/must be learned by doing the real thing. The exit is often the most challenging and critical part of an AFF jump - you can't practice those in the tunnel. I do see potential for practicing student spin and inverted flight recovery in a tunnel, although I also see potential for a lot of injuries practicing these moves in such a confined space. I beleive somebody who has done the jumps to accumulate 6 hours of freefall is going to be a much better overall skydiver than someone who has spent 6 hours in a tunnel. Someone who has done both will be better than either... Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #5 December 11, 2005 QuoteYou can't substitute, you need six hours of FF. However, some course directors will allow 5 hours of FF to take the AFFI course. But you can't get the rating, even after passing the course, until you have the six hours. Actually, there are quite a number of military guys out there who got their AFF tickets with four hours of freefall. They only use their ratings to assist in running their own, in-house freefall programs though and cannot touch a civilian until they have attained six hours of freefall. Same thing with tandems. There are a ton of guys around here with RWS tandem ratings who got them for "miltary use only" with as little as 200 jumps. Same rule applies: no civilian tandem passengers till they have 500 jumps. Back to the topic at hand though: tunnel time. The great amount of my 254 hours of tunnel time has been working with freefall students and doing "instructor drills". It is positively the best tool available for doing "flip over drills", blocking "students" who cork up on you, and spin stops. That and "king of the tunnel" drills where you try to steal the high safety's air. Thank god I didn't have to pay for any of that time! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apoil 0 #6 December 11, 2005 QuoteAs is the case with any type of skydiving, tunnel time can for sure be an asset to your skill development, but can/will never be able to fully replace what can/must be learned by doing the real thing. The exit is often the most challenging and critical part of an AFF jump - you can't practice those in the tunnel. This is a good argument for a jump number requirement not just freefall time. These days with 70 second free fall times common per jump it means one can get to six hours with significantly fewer, exits, breakoffs openings and landings, all of which are important to being a good AFFI. It's not just about flying slot and catching out of control students although that's an important part. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #7 December 12, 2005 QuoteThere are a ton of guys around here with RWS tandem ratings who got them for "miltary use only" with as little as 200 jumps. Here are a couple pics when we trained some PJ's with 200 jumps out at Crows Landing. Yep, it was fun giving them ratings, as we were able to train them out of the Black Hawks, but after we pasted them to carry military passengers, they were riding 345 pound tethered barrels out of the plane. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #8 December 12, 2005 So, um, where does the tether go when they release the drogue? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #9 December 12, 2005 QuoteSo, um, where does the tether go when they release the drogue? It stays attached to them. Some took it between the legs as the canopy inflated , but the landings were more impressive if they didn't get the tether on the outside of their legs when the barrel hit the ground. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sergant 0 #10 December 13, 2005 Guys, thanks for all of your comments. Now it's very obvious that tunnel time cannot replace amount of jumps/freefall time. Another question, just to understand/be ready, what kind of tricks use AFF examiners? I believe, that nobody is going track away right after exit? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #11 December 13, 2005 QuoteAnother question, just to understand/be ready, what kind of tricks use AFF examiners? I believe, that nobody is going track away right after exit? Now by giving you the info, how would that test your skills? Besides, all the exits are easy and the student always arches out the door. Actually, I encourage you to do work-up jumps with current AFF evaluators. They will get you upto speed. By using their "tricks" on skydives they will know what your abilities are and what you need to work on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #12 December 13, 2005 QuoteBesides, all the exits are easy and the student always arches out the door. I have just started to coach, and I have found that students just off AFF (like their 8th jump) have the most incredible changes in fall rate, especially on exits. They will give it a full arch, but if they don't like what they are feeling (stability, etc) they get huge and dearch and make it worse for a while as they think they can grab some air or something. I have never worked so hard on maintaining fall rates as in the first 10 seconds of some student jumps... And, that is with me coming in with hours of flat fly tunnel time with a good hour probably dedicated to fall rate drills with coaches... So far, my slowest coach jump has been 98 average speed (while I was wearing a slick RW and I tend to be one of the bigger/taller guys at the DZ). But I can't repeat that reliably, 105-107 in that suit is something I know I can do over and over again. Baggier or FF suits and I bet I can slow down more, but I just have not tried yet... So, I guess I previously thought, "Students have not learned to push slow or push fast fall - so their range will be limited." But I am finding that a student can really push the limits of slow fall... So, my question to AFFIs - I am going to be working towards this rating and am setting goals now so I can practice... I know slow fall is a work on as I have been told to expect the evaluators to simulate a student that is spinning and gets real tense and puts everything out making them super slow while spinning... Or the opposite... The question: If you take your average size/build student (150-200 pound guy) who walks in the door that any AFF instructor should be able to jump with - what is the range of fall rate speeds needed for AFF instruction? How slow can they go??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Canuck 0 #13 December 13, 2005 First off, dress for success (yourself and your student). Big guys get big jumpsuits, little girls get little jumpsuits. I almost always wear my freefly suit, because it's always easier to go faster than slower. Second, it's all about anticipation. If you see a major slow down in the works, it's pretty easy to match it. It's when you get complacent and your student ends up 20 feet above you that your screwed. On release dives, I tend to be in my happy place about 2 feet high of the student. From there, it's very easy to maintain position of advantage. Third, it's about knowing your limitations. I'm comfortable taking students from about 120-220. More or less than that, and I start looking for smaller or bigger instructors. Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 24 #14 December 13, 2005 QuoteI believe, that nobody is going track away right after exit? It you can imagine it, it probably has happened......Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Canuck 0 #15 December 13, 2005 I've always thought it would be pretty funny to show up as an unknown at a DZ to do level 1, deek the instructors on exit, and then put on a tracking clinic. Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #16 December 14, 2005 QuoteI've always thought it would be pretty funny to show up as an unknown at a DZ to do level 1, deek the instructors on exit, and then put on a tracking clinic. Either way, I still get paid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cruzit 0 #17 December 14, 2005 Most examiners won't deliberately screw you. But I strongly advise going to a pre-cert course just to get a feel for what it's like. For every horrible cert course skydive I had, I have a dozen more real AFF jumps which were much worse in the 10 years since I earned my rating. It took a while, but I eventually figured out the cert course really was a good thing. At the time I went through the course I had just enough FF time to get my rating...I wish I had had some tunnel time to supplement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #18 December 14, 2005 QuoteI've always thought it would be pretty funny to show up as an unknown at a DZ to do level 1, deek the instructors on exit, and then put on a tracking clinic. Canuck Can I show up with ya too... Too bad I can't freefly worth crap, because I would love to go headdown on the same jump that you went tracking... We would have to pay for the video so we could get the "you would never guess what my student just did" conversations between our instructors while they were talking us down... But, I think we would have to wait until level 3 because I don't think I could break the death grip most AFFIs give 1s and 2s... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #19 December 14, 2005 As some have said, dress correctly for the evaluator/student size, and dress your eval/student correctly. And always try to be one step ahead of your eval/student. Also, evaluators will respond to the correct hand signals during your eveluation dives, so learn to use them when they need them. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sergant 0 #20 December 14, 2005 QuoteAs some have said, dress correctly for the evaluator/student size, and dress your eval/student correctly. And always try to be one step ahead of your eval/student. Also, evaluators will respond to the correct hand signals during your eveluation dives, so learn to use them when they need them. It' a good one. Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #21 December 15, 2005 QuoteAlso, evaluators will respond to the correct hand signals during your eveluation dives, so learn to use them when they need them. About half-way through my first eval jump, Mr. Stokes was backsliding a bit...enough to put me a little out in front of him on his reserve side while my fellow candidate was in the same basic spot on the main side. The backslide wasn't bad enough to require us to use a tongue-signal, but it did have us driving somewhat aggressively. We both threw stable "legs out" signals right in front of Jay's face, at which point he completely straightened his legs. We were smoked, facing the wrong direction to hold position, but we both recognized it and even though Jay had told us before, "Grab below my elbows or knees and I WILL roll onto my back", we both grabbed wrists rather than letting him get behind us, but we did it simultaneously so he didn't manage to roll on us. On the ground, during the "time-in" debrief, I mentioned how a legs out signal means "about 6 inches", rather than something more drastic. His response, "Oh I remembered that, but since I saw TWO leg out signals, I figured I should go twice as far!" Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #22 December 15, 2005 Good lord, Jay was the best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Silverchic 0 #23 December 15, 2005 I like it! A couple of months ago we had a TM do recurrency and I thought it would just be so much fun to go up there and pretend to be the worst tandem ever! Do everything you can, foetal position, arms going everywhere etc etc...How is it that we put man on the moon before we figured out it would be a good idea to put wheels on luggage? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FrogNog 1 #24 December 16, 2005 Isn't it a lot safer to be a bad AFF student than a bad tandem student, because of the sidespin possibility? Just wondering about that sidespin thing. I'm not sure how wicked they are, but I thought they can really bite. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #25 December 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteAlso, evaluators will respond to the correct hand signals during your eveluation dives, so learn to use them when they need them. About half-way through my first eval jump, Mr. Stokes was backsliding a bit...enough to put me a little out in front of him on his reserve side while my fellow candidate was in the same basic spot on the main side. The backslide wasn't bad enough to require us to use a tongue-signal, but it did have us driving somewhat aggressively. We both threw stable "legs out" signals right in front of Jay's face, at which point he completely straightened his legs. We were smoked, facing the wrong direction to hold position, but we both recognized it and even though Jay had told us before, "Grab below my elbows or knees and I WILL roll onto my back", we both grabbed wrists rather than letting him get behind us, but we did it simultaneously so he didn't manage to roll on us. On the ground, during the "time-in" debrief, I mentioned how a legs out signal means "about 6 inches", rather than something more drastic. His response, "Oh I remembered that, but since I saw TWO leg out signals, I figured I should go twice as far!" Blues, Dave Two questions/comments... 1) Does Stokes have something there, was he really making the point that if two instructors give a signal the student may over react??? Thus, is there a best-practice procedure to have only one instructor give commands at any one time (unless it is something like pull)??? 2) Based upon my experience thus far coaching (limited), I find that sometimes even the most clear hand signal (legs out) does nothing... So I would have thought evaluators would sometimes not respond at all to signals to see how you deal with it... But from everyone I talk to, they always say the evaluators will respond... I guess we can't be that lucky with real students, huh??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Shark 0 #11 December 13, 2005 QuoteAnother question, just to understand/be ready, what kind of tricks use AFF examiners? I believe, that nobody is going track away right after exit? Now by giving you the info, how would that test your skills? Besides, all the exits are easy and the student always arches out the door. Actually, I encourage you to do work-up jumps with current AFF evaluators. They will get you upto speed. By using their "tricks" on skydives they will know what your abilities are and what you need to work on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #12 December 13, 2005 QuoteBesides, all the exits are easy and the student always arches out the door. I have just started to coach, and I have found that students just off AFF (like their 8th jump) have the most incredible changes in fall rate, especially on exits. They will give it a full arch, but if they don't like what they are feeling (stability, etc) they get huge and dearch and make it worse for a while as they think they can grab some air or something. I have never worked so hard on maintaining fall rates as in the first 10 seconds of some student jumps... And, that is with me coming in with hours of flat fly tunnel time with a good hour probably dedicated to fall rate drills with coaches... So far, my slowest coach jump has been 98 average speed (while I was wearing a slick RW and I tend to be one of the bigger/taller guys at the DZ). But I can't repeat that reliably, 105-107 in that suit is something I know I can do over and over again. Baggier or FF suits and I bet I can slow down more, but I just have not tried yet... So, I guess I previously thought, "Students have not learned to push slow or push fast fall - so their range will be limited." But I am finding that a student can really push the limits of slow fall... So, my question to AFFIs - I am going to be working towards this rating and am setting goals now so I can practice... I know slow fall is a work on as I have been told to expect the evaluators to simulate a student that is spinning and gets real tense and puts everything out making them super slow while spinning... Or the opposite... The question: If you take your average size/build student (150-200 pound guy) who walks in the door that any AFF instructor should be able to jump with - what is the range of fall rate speeds needed for AFF instruction? How slow can they go??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #13 December 13, 2005 First off, dress for success (yourself and your student). Big guys get big jumpsuits, little girls get little jumpsuits. I almost always wear my freefly suit, because it's always easier to go faster than slower. Second, it's all about anticipation. If you see a major slow down in the works, it's pretty easy to match it. It's when you get complacent and your student ends up 20 feet above you that your screwed. On release dives, I tend to be in my happy place about 2 feet high of the student. From there, it's very easy to maintain position of advantage. Third, it's about knowing your limitations. I'm comfortable taking students from about 120-220. More or less than that, and I start looking for smaller or bigger instructors. Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #14 December 13, 2005 QuoteI believe, that nobody is going track away right after exit? It you can imagine it, it probably has happened......Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #15 December 13, 2005 I've always thought it would be pretty funny to show up as an unknown at a DZ to do level 1, deek the instructors on exit, and then put on a tracking clinic. Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #16 December 14, 2005 QuoteI've always thought it would be pretty funny to show up as an unknown at a DZ to do level 1, deek the instructors on exit, and then put on a tracking clinic. Either way, I still get paid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzit 0 #17 December 14, 2005 Most examiners won't deliberately screw you. But I strongly advise going to a pre-cert course just to get a feel for what it's like. For every horrible cert course skydive I had, I have a dozen more real AFF jumps which were much worse in the 10 years since I earned my rating. It took a while, but I eventually figured out the cert course really was a good thing. At the time I went through the course I had just enough FF time to get my rating...I wish I had had some tunnel time to supplement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #18 December 14, 2005 QuoteI've always thought it would be pretty funny to show up as an unknown at a DZ to do level 1, deek the instructors on exit, and then put on a tracking clinic. Canuck Can I show up with ya too... Too bad I can't freefly worth crap, because I would love to go headdown on the same jump that you went tracking... We would have to pay for the video so we could get the "you would never guess what my student just did" conversations between our instructors while they were talking us down... But, I think we would have to wait until level 3 because I don't think I could break the death grip most AFFIs give 1s and 2s... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #19 December 14, 2005 As some have said, dress correctly for the evaluator/student size, and dress your eval/student correctly. And always try to be one step ahead of your eval/student. Also, evaluators will respond to the correct hand signals during your eveluation dives, so learn to use them when they need them. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sergant 0 #20 December 14, 2005 QuoteAs some have said, dress correctly for the evaluator/student size, and dress your eval/student correctly. And always try to be one step ahead of your eval/student. Also, evaluators will respond to the correct hand signals during your eveluation dives, so learn to use them when they need them. It' a good one. Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #21 December 15, 2005 QuoteAlso, evaluators will respond to the correct hand signals during your eveluation dives, so learn to use them when they need them. About half-way through my first eval jump, Mr. Stokes was backsliding a bit...enough to put me a little out in front of him on his reserve side while my fellow candidate was in the same basic spot on the main side. The backslide wasn't bad enough to require us to use a tongue-signal, but it did have us driving somewhat aggressively. We both threw stable "legs out" signals right in front of Jay's face, at which point he completely straightened his legs. We were smoked, facing the wrong direction to hold position, but we both recognized it and even though Jay had told us before, "Grab below my elbows or knees and I WILL roll onto my back", we both grabbed wrists rather than letting him get behind us, but we did it simultaneously so he didn't manage to roll on us. On the ground, during the "time-in" debrief, I mentioned how a legs out signal means "about 6 inches", rather than something more drastic. His response, "Oh I remembered that, but since I saw TWO leg out signals, I figured I should go twice as far!" Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #22 December 15, 2005 Good lord, Jay was the best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Silverchic 0 #23 December 15, 2005 I like it! A couple of months ago we had a TM do recurrency and I thought it would just be so much fun to go up there and pretend to be the worst tandem ever! Do everything you can, foetal position, arms going everywhere etc etc...How is it that we put man on the moon before we figured out it would be a good idea to put wheels on luggage? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #24 December 16, 2005 Isn't it a lot safer to be a bad AFF student than a bad tandem student, because of the sidespin possibility? Just wondering about that sidespin thing. I'm not sure how wicked they are, but I thought they can really bite. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #25 December 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteAlso, evaluators will respond to the correct hand signals during your eveluation dives, so learn to use them when they need them. About half-way through my first eval jump, Mr. Stokes was backsliding a bit...enough to put me a little out in front of him on his reserve side while my fellow candidate was in the same basic spot on the main side. The backslide wasn't bad enough to require us to use a tongue-signal, but it did have us driving somewhat aggressively. We both threw stable "legs out" signals right in front of Jay's face, at which point he completely straightened his legs. We were smoked, facing the wrong direction to hold position, but we both recognized it and even though Jay had told us before, "Grab below my elbows or knees and I WILL roll onto my back", we both grabbed wrists rather than letting him get behind us, but we did it simultaneously so he didn't manage to roll on us. On the ground, during the "time-in" debrief, I mentioned how a legs out signal means "about 6 inches", rather than something more drastic. His response, "Oh I remembered that, but since I saw TWO leg out signals, I figured I should go twice as far!" Blues, Dave Two questions/comments... 1) Does Stokes have something there, was he really making the point that if two instructors give a signal the student may over react??? Thus, is there a best-practice procedure to have only one instructor give commands at any one time (unless it is something like pull)??? 2) Based upon my experience thus far coaching (limited), I find that sometimes even the most clear hand signal (legs out) does nothing... So I would have thought evaluators would sometimes not respond at all to signals to see how you deal with it... But from everyone I talk to, they always say the evaluators will respond... I guess we can't be that lucky with real students, huh??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
