Wearing video on AFF dives

[altichick 1]

Just wondering how many AFFIs wear video on AFF dives and if so how is it mounted (side/top/bullet cam) and any thoughts you have on the various pros/cons??

Also how wide a lens do you use to get useful video on non-release dives?

Thanks

Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things!

[NickDG 23]

Be careful on this slippery slope. With some new DZOs doing all they can to eliminate staff members (a big cash drain for them) how far away from UAV tandem rigs are we? Watch how fast the "jumpmaster" rating comes back when one JM can toss 15 solo tandems out of an Otter . . .

NickD BASE 194

[rustywardlow 0]

DEAR Sally
This is a highly disputed question. First off what is your primary job as an AFF-I? The safety of your student. Are you there to instruct or shoot video? Instruct. Is video available? Outside video usaully shows a lot more than what a sidewinder can no matter what size lens you use. Even if you can see the whole student you can only see one side. Remember that your student is never suppose to be more than arms length away if you back out to get a better camera angle then you will be out of position when things go wrong. The age old saying that AFF HAPPENS is always true. Is a camera an added concern? Yes. When doing AFF is it a good idea to try and do two jobs at once? No. Not saying that you can or you can't I'm just saying that you might want to think about it a little more.
BLUE SKIES
RUSTY


CAPTAIN THE LITHUIM BATTERIES JUST CAN'T TAKE THE STRESSSS!

[rhys 0]

I think it really depeds on your history, me for example, i have mainly done outside video jumps. i mounted my camera on my gath to help my students. but what i found is that i instinctively stayed back and one got away on me and spun up big time.

alot of people wear cameras on all jumps and just get what footage they get eg. performing freefly or 4way etc. and then i think it is not a problem.

video is great for debrief(not only for the student but for the jumpmaster) and alot of the time the student cannot afford to have all jumps videod. and would rather pay for the extra jumps than a video.

as long as it does not inhibit your effectiveness as an instructor then it is all good.

outside camera is always going to be the best though.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[voodew1 0]

I jump a camera on every jump, AFF, Wingsuit, RW, whatever. On an AFF jump I use a super wide angle lens and it records whatever it records - I don't focus on video.
I use a NvertigoX helmet with a bonehead box side mount.

Shooting video of your AFFs does 2 things - it gives you better debreifing tools and it gets you requested as an instructor when your not next in the rotation which is a bonus.
I don't charge to copy my video to tape for the student, but I do ask that they on occasion bring some beer for the DZ.

As for one of the comments about you only see one side of the body well that is correct, really you only see 85% of either half of the body, but if you are doing a body scan with your head and not just your eyes you do end up with a very good debrief tool.

The comment about how an instructor shooting AFF video is going to get rid of all the video guys is bullshit---------the video sucks it doesn't look professional, no smiles, bounces around ---- its a tool to provide your student with the best possible instruction when the learning curve is 60 seconds long.

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[riddler 0]

I'd really like to jump video when I get AFFI. But I don't plan to share it with the student. I hope I can use it as a learning tool for myself, and in the event something unfortunate happens, I can use it to document the jump. As far as sharing with the student - well, we have video people that get paid for that. I'm not going to undercut their income by giving it away for free. If the student wants to see their performance, then they should purchase video.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[velocity-96 0]

i totaly agree with your post. i jump with a side mount and a .3 wideangle lens. im a turn it on and forget it guy. i only jump vid on coaching dives not aff because im very green, just got my aff rating this summer and feel the dzo's would frown upon me jumping camera at this point. however i will use vid on aff dives as soon as i get a little more exp.

that being said i feel the camera being a distraction is case by case. it distracts some but not all. like you said voodew, the video sucks so i, nor other videographers at the dz feel im taking money from them. nothing will take the place of good outside video.

to riddler,
i use it mostly to give the student the most feedback possible. you'd be suprised how much you can miss if its a dive your having to fly your ass off. if your jumping the darn thing its kind of messed up to not let your student see it. dont you want to help them as much as possible. video is an amazing teaching tool. i think your probaly looking out for the other vid guy's, which is honorable. let them watch but dont give them a copy. this i feel is the best of both worlds, but dont put anything above teaching your students to the best of you ability. they pay a shitload of money and i feel they deserve nothing but 100%.
peace bro.

[Miami 0]

I wear video on all of my jumps (except tandems). With AFF it is sidemounted in an FF2 with nothing else mounted to the helmet (so absolutely nothing to snag) and it is a turn it on and forget it situation.

I just started jumping a .25 (was previously jumping a .3) and love the video I am getting with it. Generally my students get to watch the video a few times, but they don't get a copy of their own...they have to pay for an outside video for that.

Really the only con I can see is if you worry about the video...the student really must be your only priority...if the video is giving you problems forget about it and figure it out when you get on the ground.
Hope this helps...

Miami

[altichick 1]

Thanks everyone for your input. I totally agree that outside vid is the way to go if the student wants good video of their jump!

In my experience students will rarely get video except for maybe the first jump so an AFFI wearing video wouldn't reduce the work available for the camera guys.

However lots of students would benefit from seeing their jump on video. If I go for it it seems that an enclosed, side mount with super wide lens is the way to go.

Understand the concerns that it may be a distraction but I'm not a video flyer and trying to get a good shot/angle wouldn't even enter my head, it would definately be a case of switch it on and forget it!

Thanks again for the input

Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things!

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Nice one, Jason! I jump my video on almost every AFF jump too. A .3 lens zoomed all the way out insures I get everything that needs to get seen, even when I am docked. I don't jump the camera to sell video; I use it as a debriefing tool. It is especially beneficial on the main side, but I jump it no matter what side I am on. We don't push outside video at all here at Raeford (for AFF), but offer it to anyone willing to pay for it. Most of our instructors do not follow my lead on this, but I got keen on doing it when I saw Chris Wagner doing it. Like Jason said, I don't do the skydive focusing on "getting the shot"; the hardware I use does that job for me. Jumping a camera for AFF (either side, any level) in no way, shape or form hinders me or causes any safety issues.

edited to add that I jump my PC 109 sidemounted on an Optik Illusion

Chuck
AFFI (among other things)

[livendive 8]

Sidemount with a 0.3. Pro - It's a good teaching tool. I don't see a con.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Mr17Hz 1]

Skydive Chicago uses their own AFP program instead of AFF, three differences are:

The AFP program has 18 steps instead of 7, so that you focus on doing less per jump, but more times.

Under most cases, only one jumpmaster is used. 2 Jumpmasters are used for someone who hasn't done a tandem in the last 6 months, or if the instructors decide so for special cases.

ALL jumps are ALWAYS done with a camera. A video debreafing is PART of the experience.

I can't say how much this helped when I went through the program earlier this year. On the first 2 jumps (before release) you really don't get too much out of the video, but on the later jumps it helps so much to see where your legs / arms were compaired to where you THOUGHT they were.

SDC has instructors that have both side and top mounted cameras. I believe they leave it up to the preference of the instructor.

I've since flown with people from various dropzones of similar experience level (~100 jumps and under), and it really shows how much of a difference having an 18 step program helps with having solid fundimental skills.

I'll do a belly jump with an SDC graduate after 25 jumps with little concerns, but I won't jump with someone trained at another school unless they've had over 50 jumps, because of my own experience level being so low, and not knowing what to expect.

Sorry to sidetrack the thread, but I wanted to give a students perspective of how much I think having video available for AFF / AFP training helps.

Matt

Matt Christenson

[email protected]
http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software.

[Trent 0]

All AFF instructors at Spaceland wear video for each student jump. We use the video to debreif students so they can SEE what we're talking about. I don't think any of our instructors even think about the video when doing these jumps. It is a useful tool that is easy to do, and the students get a ton more out of the jump when since we dub down the videos to their tapes and they can go home and see what went on in the jumps and try to correct it or improve on it for the next jump. As far as not seeing enough in the video.... the AFF JM should always be visiually scanning the student from arms to legs, just doing that gives them enough of a look at their entire body position with any decent wide angle lens.

As it turns out, at our DZ... this doesn't take any video work away from our video staff since we never really had them do outside on AFF's anyway. We try to keep them busy with tandems. Of course, if a student wants extra outside video... they can pay for it. But as it is, the video IS an improvement on teaching for us and every one of us instructors sees it as a good thing.

Oh, hello again!

[freeflyerjosh 0]

I wear video on every aff jump, and find it to be a great learning tool, not only to the student but also for myself. One of my favorite things is to sit down with my aff video at the end of the day and watch it repeatedly, just to see what I could have done better, and to ingrain the different situations that students can throw my way into my brain. I jump a FF2 camera helmet with an internal cam box, so I dont even notice it being on my head. Once out the door, it might as well not even be there. Any video I get from my slot is there at the end of the jump. As for showing a student, I usually only do it if there was a serious problem that they should see. If they didnt pay for video, I am not there to inflate their ego, but if they can learn something from it, I will show them and even try to get them copies so they can watch it later and see what happened.

[startingout 0]

After reading this post, I couldn't resist not replying. This exactly happened to me (the student) on a recent AFF jump. My instructor was filming the jump and lost her grip on me almost immediately after exiting the aircraft. In fairness, I doubt it had anything to do with the video, and was more of a
*&!@ happens kind a thing.

I went into a pretty severe flat spin, and everything I tried to do to stop it didn't work (at least, I think I was trying various things. At one point in freefall I started to curl up into a ball, because I heard that works, but I just started to spin faster, so I stopped).

I was checking altitude regularly, but I didn't open the parachute because I thought my instructor would come back to me and stabilize me first. Around 4000'-5000' feet she made one last pass to reach me, couldn't grab on, and at this point I realized I was on my own. I remember looking at my altimeter, saw it in the red (want to say ~3000'), thought "s--t, it's now or never" and threw out my pilot chute. From the video, the act of bringing my left hand in front of me and instinctively bringing my legs together during the pilot-chute deployment stopped the spin enough so that the main opened cleanly.

I remember looking up at the deploying main just waiting for the line twists to form. I couldn't believe that the main opened cleanly.

Anyway, I admit that I am being a big chicken, but I took that as a sign from God to take a break from skydiving for a while (everyone at the drop zone was very encouraging and tried to talk me out of quitting, but I don't want to risk it). I'll probably come back to the sport at some point later in life, but for now I decided to walk away (I also know that I made a mistake in not opening my parachute at 5500'. The rule is 1. PULL 2. PULL STABLE and
there's a third one I think).

The good news is, because my instructor filmed the jump, I have a DVD of what went from an AFF jump into a solo skydive. So, I can show my whuffo friends (am I a whuffo now? What is a good word for people who *have* skydived, but only a couple times, and with instructors?) my brush with death. It's kinda cool
I guess that's it. I have no opinion on video for AFF jumps, just this post made me want to share this story.

Stay safe everyone, I hope to join you back in the air someday

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[Big_Sam 0]

You should give yourself credit. it sounds like with the inadequate instruction that you had you came out ok. If you decide to come back to the sport do yourself a favor and go to another operation.

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[michalm21 0]

When I started my AFF, there was a group of british army kids (18-20years old) like me trying to do their AFF. One person I talked to, during his #2 jump, had a bad exit, and started spinning and flipping like crazy. Instructors got separated from him, and he panicked and pulled at ~10,000. I remember talking to him right after, and he was freaked out.... well the next day in the morning he jumped again, and said it was the best skydive of his life. Keep your head up and come back to this sport

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[packerboy 3]

Not an instructor or a student, but I would think that having an outside video guy on an AFF jump would be distracting for the student.

If the video guy was on the same level or lower than the student, the student may see them and get distracted. Not to mention that alot of people get performance anxiety when the cameras are rolling. When the most important thing to flying stable is being relaxed... it may hinder the whole process.

May be a tradeoff with the actual instructor wearing a camera though... debrief/performance anxiety which would you rather have?

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[packerboy 3]

You forgot #2

#1 PULL
#2 PULL ON TIME
#3 PULL STABLE
#4 BE PREPARED TO PERFORM EMERGENCY PROCEDURES IN THE EVENT OF AN EMERGENCY
#5 Perform the entire skydive flawlessly.
#6 At some point, buy beer

Anything after the first 4 don't matter so much. But don't take my word for it.. I'm not an instructor.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[tdog 0]

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Not an instructor or a student, but I would think that having an outside video guy on an AFF jump would be distracting for the student.

I am a novice instructor....

I had a jump that went less than perfect recently...

I am starting to re-think the whole "outside video" thing - not because it is distracting for the student, (I had a AFF1 do textbook with a video person right in front of him) but because having to worry about another person in the airspace is a real concern... On a particular jump, the bottom end went real south - well actually the whole dive did from a spinning exit where I had to flush off (that was the dive plan I established with the other I) due to a tumble - and due to instability at the bottom end the video guy ended up in the line of fire real quickly despite his evasive maneuvers. His video shows a canopy real close. It is pretty hard to barrel roll to check your student's airspace before pulling them out after you lose stability and regain it... I am learning so much right now in my progression as an instructor - but in this dive, I had no clue where the video guy ended up. I knew where the student and other instructor was, but I had to trust the video guy to get out of all our way... So - distracting for the student - maybe... Distracting for the instructors, definitely?

I have a Sony PC42 with a waycool .3 lens in my FF2... I have used it on every AFF jump, AFF eval jump, and all my recent coach/fun jumps...

The video is invaluable for *me* on my AFF jumps - because I am able to learn so much by watching my own footage. I can see, while docked on the student, the majority of the student and all the things I am doing (grips, hand signal clarity, etc). My rule - which I have actually followed more than once. Press the button once before the door opens, and if the cameye does not show record, don't fiddle, accept the fact the dive will not be on tape.

There is nothing on my helmet to get snagged on, or poke thru, the student... And after seeing what is possible in a tumble with a student, I would never wear a helmet with anything sticking out at all.... And I am just a novice, I am sure the experienced guys can tell you more.

[Miami 0]

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...but in this dive, I had no clue where the video guy ended up. I knew where the student and other instructor was, but I had to trust the video guy to get out of all our way... So - distracting for the student - maybe... Distracting for the instructors, definitely?

Your ultimate responsibility is the student. If you can keep track of the others that is good, but they need to be able to take care of them selves. It's a given that no one, at any time, wants to be even close to being over an aff student or their instructors. Students can pull unexpectedly or an instructor can pull them out at any time. AFF video is definitely a different animal than something like tandem video...the poop hits the fan much more often and an outside vidiot has to be ready at anytime to fly his or her butt off to keep things safe.

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I have a Sony PC42 with a waycool .3 lens in my FF2... I have used it on every AFF jump, AFF eval jump, and all my recent coach/fun jumps...

The video is invaluable for *me* on my AFF jumps - because I am able to learn so much by watching my own footage. I can see, while docked on the student, the majority of the student and all the things I am doing (grips, hand signal clarity, etc). My rule - which I have actually followed more than once. Press the button once before the door opens, and if the cameye does not show record, don't fiddle, accept the fact the dive will not be on tape.

There is nothing on my helmet to get snagged on, or poke thru, the student... And after seeing what is possible in a tumble with a student, I would never wear a helmet with anything sticking out at all.... And I am just a novice, I am sure the experienced guys can tell you more.

You should try waycool's .25 if you ever get the chance...I love mine for pov aff video. I certainly agree with you...having that point of view can be invaluable for everyone involved, but you do not want anything that can increase the snag potential (which the FF2 is perfect for ).

Miami

[tdog 0]

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Your ultimate responsibility is the student. If you can keep track of the others that is good, but they need to be able to take care of them selves.

In that context I was thinking outloud... Dumping out a student when they might hit the video guy is not good for the student or video guy.

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You should try waycool's .25 if you ever get the chance...I love mine for pov aff video

How much difference is between the .25 and .3.... I found I am getting the bottom of the container to just past the student's hands when I am flying my slot... When I look to the legs in freefall, I get those on video, but only when I look that way.

I guess I am finding I could go a little wider for level 1 - but for the levels where you let go I am happy...

See screenshots posted.

[bob.dino 0]

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How much difference is between the .25 and .3

There's some really nice photos to illustrate the difference on WayCool's Black-Eye (0.25) page.

[Miami 0]

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In that context I was thinking outloud... Dumping out a student when they might hit the video guy is not good for the student or video guy.

Oh yea, definitely...but sometimes when the poop is hitting the fan you have to take care of that student fast. Sometimes you cannot afford to hesitate to figure out where that vidiot is, so they have to be aware that they could be seeing canopies at any time and at any altitude.

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How much difference is between the .25 and .3.... I found I am getting the bottom of the container to just past the student's hands when I am flying my slot... When I look to the legs in freefall, I get those on video, but only when I look that way.

I guess I am finding I could go a little wider for level 1 - but for the levels where you let go I am happy...

See screenshots posted.

I'll try and post some screen shots of the .25 in action tonight if I can, but I started with a .3 and ended up much happier with the .25, even for release dives.

Miami

[tdog 0]

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How much difference is between the .25 and .3

There's some really nice photos to illustrate the difference on WayCool's Black-Eye (0.25) page.

Ya - I have been to that page... Considering I will be skydiving with a human at arms length, instead of a car - it would be so cool if they would include photos specific to our sport too...