student with weights?

[Punky_Monkey 0]

I have a question for all of you instructors out there? How do you feel of a student with 24 jumps wearing weights? I realize that I need to be able to fly my body without them. The problem lies in that since I have started jumping my coaches and instructors have always been about 5 feet below me. I am starting to get really fustrated with this and have started to realize, after being in the tunnel, that I have just kind of been winging it. It would have been nice early on to have been able to get hand singles in the air.

I am suppose to start my docking this weekend. Ok, I can adjust my fall rate and maybe get down to them. But what about the adjusted fall rate with docking?

Any ideas? I need to finish this so I can get my A liscense.

Thanks!!

*******
Punky Monkey
You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation

[firstime 0]

they would not allow me weights until I became
profiecent with my fall rate. Forget about the weights,
you can do it without them unless your under 100lbs.
Just enjoy skydiving as it is now, try not to get so techy so early in your career. Relax and enjoy.

[bodypilot1 0]

Never let an Instructor or Coach tell you that you need to wear weights so you can fall as fast as them.

THEY need to "dress for success" on your coach jumps and adjust to YOUR fallrate.

If they can not, I would find another DZ that has Instructors that can.



Be safe.
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[BIGUN 1,053]

What Ed said. Ditto

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[jdfreefly 1]

Disclaimer: I am not an aff instructor, but I am a coach and an uncurrent tandem instructor.

If you have a very light floaty person, who, if they want to falt fly with groups, why not have them wear weights? They are going to have to get used to the idea eventually. Why not introduce it earlier?

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[Punky_Monkey 0]

That's exactly my point....In order to fly with anyone at my home DZ I will be wearing weights all the time...

*******
Punky Monkey
You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation

[pilotdave 0]

I started wearing weights on AFF 3. Eventually I was just put with lighter instructors which helped a lot. But as soon as I got my A license and started doing RW, weights were definitely necessary. If you need em, you need em. Only your instructors, who've seen your body position, can really judge that.

Dave

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I learned at a time when guys just didn't wear weights. I was a lot lighter than the people around me so I just learned to fall fast enough. To this day I have bad habits from that time. When you are constantly flying at the bottom of your range you sacrifice the ability to move effectively in other vectors. I do not think weights should be substituted for level control skills, but if people with thousands of jumps feel that their performance is enhanced by wearing weights rather than just arching harder, maybe that's true for you (punkey) too.

[BPO 0]

should you start to wear some weights, you might want to re-consider jumping a 120ft2 canopy..

[Punky_Monkey 0]

Just so you know I do have that canopy but do not plan on jumping that anytime in the near feature...I have a lot, tons of downsizing to do and also will take a canopy course before I even attempt to jump that.

*******
Punky Monkey
You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation

[BPO 0]

Very wise!

Just thought I'd ask..

[riggerrob 558]

Hanging weights on junior jumpers is a bad idea when your DZ is near water.
Every DZ seems to have sewage settling pond within range.

[Ron 7]

I have no problem putting weights on a person who needs them. You are very light, and will end up using weights on most RW jumps.

I have been an Instructor since like 1994 and a RW coach for a long time.

I don't recomend the weights that go inside a Jump Suit for ANYONE. But I have put Weights on a light butt, after I *first* put a big JS on myself.

You used weights in the tunnel, and on your 23rd jump with no problems.

If it was your first jump *ever* then I might not recomend them, but at your level (And I know something about your level of skill)...I'd wear them.

She weighs about 105 pounds for those that don't know her.

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The problem lies in that since I have started jumping my coaches and instructors have always been about 5 feet below me.

I can think of one instructor that was not 5 feet below you

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jdfreefly 1]

hu, hu, hu....he said below you!!!

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[Punky_Monkey 0]

True Ron, you weren't below me.
My instructors are still refusing to let me use weights. And I am very upset with them now for many other reasons.

I have checked with other DZ in the area and will not jump there. The two major reasons are...

1. I would have to go back to a one handle system and since I got transitioned to the two handle system while in Florida I don't feel this would be the correct thing to do. It could get to confusing if the time came when I had to use my EP procedures. I don't want to be switching back and forth.

2. The DZ I did find with a two handle system has only 288ft canopies for student gear. I can't flare a 235, and I back up and hang on a 215. That 288 I feel would be an accident waiting to happen.

So now I see another vacation coming on...Back to Florida or up to New York?

*******
Punky Monkey
You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation

[Punky_Monkey 0]

No problem, we newbies need people watching out for us.
In z-hills I jumped a 200 Navigator. Let me tell you that thing had zip...When I got to my home DZ they put me on a 170 sabre. Largest around that I could use because our student gear is a one handle system. And I had transitioned down there. On that 170 believe me I was scared. Still am scared of it. Luckly I know how to plf and even plf when I can stand up landings. Bad habit or good? It took me a long time to learn not to flare from 30ft above the ground.

Wish I still had that 200 Navigator around.

*******
Punky Monkey
You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation

[Ron 7]

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True Ron, you weren't below me. It was great seeing an instructor in the air.

I was taking offense there for a second. Could I have been THAT forgetable?

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My instructors are still refusing to let me use weights. And I am very upset with them now for many other reasons.

They are only doing what they think is best for you....I find it funny they will not let you use weights when they are low on you.

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1. I would have to go back to a one handle system and since I got transitioned to the two handle system while in Florida I don't feel this would be the correct thing to do. It could get to confusing if the time came when I had to use my EP procedures. I don't want to be switching back and forth.

2. The DZ I did find with a two handle system has only 288ft canopies for student gear. I can't flare a 235, and I back up and hang on a 215. That 288 I feel would be an accident waiting to happen.

The most important thing to do is get the damn license and then do what you think is best.

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So now I see another vacation coming on...Back to Florida or up to New York?

You still have a jump ticket for Zhills

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Punky_Monkey 0]

You not THAT forgetable.
You are great to work with...Both in the air and in the tunnel. Wish I would have bit the big one the 2nd day and jumped more. Lesson learned.

They won't let me wear the weights...Have to learn to fly my body 1st. That only pisses me off. I know I am not the greatest but I did spend 30 minutes in the tunnel..That's more than what I have in freefall. And I have already worn weights .

Actually I still have 2 jump tickets for z-hills.

*******
Punky Monkey
You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation

[Ron 7]

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They won't let me wear the weights...Have to learn to fly my body 1st. That only pisses me off. I know I am not the greatest but I did spend 30 minutes in the tunnel..That's more than what I have in freefall. And I have already worn weights .

I thought about this the other day some.

Anyone here SCUBA dive? At one time I was solid enough, that I didn't need to wear a weightbelt to SCUBA dive. So you CAN dive without one. But why is it OK to wear one to SCUBA dive to help a physics problem, but not OK to have a Skydiving student wear weights to help the same type of Physics problem?

I am not saying that an Instructor should not try to adapt to the student first...That means not being lazy and making the student wear weights so you can jump your favorite suit. But if you have already put them into a good suit, and you have your biggest on...Why not add weight to make it even safer?

Especially if that student will have to wear weights once off student status anyway. Why make them arch so much that it is the only thing they can focus on? No one performs well at the extremes of their ranges.

Now, I still say that an Instructor that makes a student wear weights so they can be lazy is a bad thing.

But if you really have a light butt student...I don't see the problem.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Punky_Monkey 0]

Thanks Ron

My jumpsuit as you know is brand new...Custom made for me...the instructor here has on a baggy suit and it still doesn't help. He is still below me.

I do focus a lot on the arching when I jump. Kinda goes like this...shit, instructor way below again...Arch, Arch, pop that arch out.

Shit, I am suppose to be working on, whatever it is at the time...Damn, almost time to pull..

*******
Punky Monkey
You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation

[kelpdiver 2]

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Anyone here SCUBA dive? At one time I was solid enough, that I didn't need to wear a weightbelt to SCUBA dive. So you CAN dive without one. But why is it OK to wear one to SCUBA dive to help a physics problem, but not OK to have a Skydiving student wear weights to help the same type of Physics problem?

It's not the same problem. Divers use weight to achieve neutral bouyancy in the water, counteracting the wetsuit. On my side of the country it is virtually impossible to descend without it, and a lot of it. While in Florida you can get away with underweighting, it requires more energy and increases risk of embolism or decompression issues. Having the belt also gives a last ditch option of dropping it, which nearly guarantees that your body will surface to where help is more readily available. Lead increases safety underwater.

You don't need weight to skydive, and it increases the landing risk. Certainly sounds like a KISS violation for the first jumps. Seems like booties- initially jump without them, then transition over since the person will be using them soon enough.

I've been on the other side of the problem - trying to slow down my fall rate and arching very little. I need a running buddy!

[jlmiracle 7]

How much weight are we talking here? I have no problem putting weight on a student as a last resort, but only 4-8 lbs but I won't put them on them on their very first jump either though.

If there is not an instructor at your DZ that can hang with you then you are down to 2 options, IMO.

1. Try to find a different dz that has an instructor that can go as slow as you; or

2. Put some weights on. I'm not talking 15-20 lbs, but with a 4-8 lbs placed correctly can help out alot. You will never learn to fly if you are bent in half or if no coach or instructor can hang with you.

I was told immediatly after completing my AFF that if I was going to jump with them (the ones that really really helped me alot) I was going to have to wear weights. Eventually you may be able to lighten up on the weights or get rid of them all together.

Best of luck to you!
Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Ron 7]

OK lets look at this:

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It's not the same problem

Never said it was the SAME problem...I said they are both physics problems. Problems where you have to add something to make a situation safer and easier.

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Divers use weight to achieve neutral bouyancy in the water, counteracting the wetsuit

Skydivers use weight to achieve a relative fallrate in a good body position.

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On my side of the country it is virtually impossible to descend without it, and a lot of it. While in Florida you can get away with underweighting, it requires more energy and increases risk of embolism or decompression issues.

Diving a spring in FL. I was not underweighting. In fact the first time I did it I just forgot my belt and didn't notice till I came back up and saw it there by my Jeep.

As for skydiving:
A hard arch requires more effort and increases the risk of creating vertical seperation that is the most dangerous type of situation in skydiving except being low. It can be done without weight, but it requires more effort than normal, and performance and the learning curve is hindered.

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Having the belt also gives a last ditch option of dropping it, which nearly guarantees that your body will surface to where help is more readily available

A student that is falling fast enough to be below an Instructor means that an Instructor can get to the student if they need help (down is easy for an experienced jumper)...A Student ABOVE an Instructor is MUCH harder to get to and the most dangerous student scenario beside being low. A student high puts the student into a position to try and fall faster to reach the instructor...I'd rather have an Instructor swooping to a student, than a student trying to swoop an Instructor.

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You don't need weight to skydive

And you don't NEED weight to SCUBA dive all the time....But it sure helps in both cases.

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and it increases the landing risk.

6 pounds would add 0.027 to the wingload on a 220 sqft canopy....Not much of anything.

A 100 pound girl with no lead on a 220 0.568 WL
A 100 pound girl with 6 pounds would be 0.595 WL. Well below any danger area.

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Certainly sounds like a KISS violation for the first jumps.

Sounds like it, But its not. One of the most dangerous situations I can think of is a student spinning above an Instructor.

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Seems like booties- initially jump without them, then transition over since the person will be using them soon enough.

Booties are a performance enhancement. Lead for a light butt in this case is saftey....Better performance is a side effect. Totaly different.

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I've been on the other side of the problem - trying to slow down my fall rate and arching very little.

So you have never worn weights?

Then how do you know how hard it is to fly with them?...Or more importantly how hard it is to fly WITHOUT them?

I started skydiving at 5'6" and 130 pounds (I did Martial Arts WAY to much). I was told that guys didn't wear lead, so I spent a good part of my first 100 jumps trying to fall fast enough. I learned several bad habits in that time, and my progression was made much more difficult by having to fight a fall rate difference.

I have over a hundred hours of tunnel time now. I was coaching a "brick" during a camp. The first session I didn't wear lead and it killed me. The next session I put on 10 pounds and it was easy.

You expect a light weight to struggle to match fall rates while wanting them to do a bunch of objectives?

Would it be easier to teach a SCUBA diver if he was correctly weighted, or under-weighted?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelpdiver 2]

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You expect a light weight to struggle to match fall rates while wanting them to do a bunch of objectives?

Would it be easier to teach a SCUBA diver if he was correctly weighted, or under-weighted?

I expect nothing. As I said, if they're going to need them, transition over. But not immediately. Weight increases dangers. I leave it to you instructors to determine the timeframe. For Punky - that may be now, or the Coach doing the RW requirements for the A license should take steps to slow down. Option 3 (figure it out yourself) doesn't seem very fair to her.

BTW, your words were "the same type of physics problem." It's not. Neutral bouyancy is a fundamental need for scuba divers, the equilivent of stable freefall for a jumper. If they can't obtain it, they'll be bouncing all over the place. It is very dangerous to teach an underweighted student - the response typically is to grossly overweight them to make things easier for the class. Dive instructors in both sports can be lazy.

It's not surprising you didn't need your belt for a fresh water dive. That's about a 6lb shift if all else remains the same.

[kelpdiver 2]

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6 pounds would add 0.027 to the wingload on a 220 sqft canopy....Not much of anything.

A 100 pound girl with no lead on a 220 0.568 WL
A 100 pound girl with 6 pounds would be 0.595 WL. Well below any danger area.

So this is a very different physics question. Is adding 6lbs merely the equilivent of changing the wingloading slightly? I've tried following some of the conversations in the swooping about those adding 30 or 40lbs to compete and I don't really know.

Adding 6lbs to a 105lb person is adding 5% (well, ignore the rig for now) to their momentum and kinetic energy. If they try to run out a landing and trip, is that lead very bad, mildly so,...?

But stepping back, my only point was that the weight belt in scuba is not optional equipment, outside of rare circumstances. You don't have the option of diving solo or doing freeflying to avoid wearing it. That's why there's no reluctance to put a weight belt on a person in an OW class. So long as there is a shallow bottom, the more lead, the 'safer' the student is, and the easier to watch over.