Newly rated AFFI - how long before you did a single JM AFF dive?

[altichick 0]

Just wondering what people thoughts and experiences are...

How long / how many jumps after getting your AFF rating was it before you did level 4 and above (single JM) dives?

Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things!

[voodew1 0]

I did 4 upper levels the first weekend I had my rating - 8 total, but I had lots of "training" experience.

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[AFFI 0]

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How long / how many jumps after getting your AFF rating was it before you did level 4 and above (single JM) dives?

The policy of the DZ where I was is to bring the newly rated instructors slowly, to learn the system. After doing abut 20 jumps under the supervision of a seasoned instructor, I then found myself jumping with all levels and acquiring all kinds of memorable (to say the least) experiences… Have fun…

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[freeflygirlz 0]

I did my AFF-rating together with a guy from my DZ and when we started jumping, we did backup-videos for each other on level 4. If there would be any problem, there would be a second aff-Instructor nearby, just in case. Now we both have about 150 aff jumps and with difficult student we still do back up videos.

[bodypilot1 0]

My first jump as an AFFI was a level 4 release dive with a guy 230lbs out of a C182 from 10,000AGL.

IMO, a skydiver that have been given their AFFI rating should be able to handle anything they are given.
Proving this to the AFFI/E is what should happen during the course, and if not, they don't deserve being given the rating.

This may sound abit harsh, but it's not a rating to taken lightly, and carries a BIG responsibility.


Keepin' it safe!
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

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IMO, a skydiver that have been given their AFFI rating should be able to handle anything they are given.
Proving this to the AFFI/E is what should happen during the course, and if not, they don't deserve being given the rating.

I would agree, up until the USPA lowered the standards to become an AFFI.

My first live AFF jump was a repeat, problem student, old school AFF level 4. It was almost a carbon copy of my evaulation level 4 dive at the course.

Derek

[bodypilot1 0]

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the USPA lowered the standards to become an AFFI.

Unfortunatly I must agree.




Keepin' it safe!
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Shark 0]

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the USPA lowered the standards to become an AFFI.

Unfortunatly I must agree.

Some DZs haven't. Those skydivers with their new ticket must also find employment. Before that they would check references and/or resume including number of instructional jumps.

So now that USPA has lowered standards to become an AFFI, how does one prove their skills?

Should I feel any less skillful than one whom earned their rating under the old method?

BTW, congratulations, Sally!

[bodypilot1 0]

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Some DZs haven't.

Thats great.

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So now that USPA has lowered standards to become an AFFI, how does one prove their skills?

Should I feel any less skillful than one whom earned their rating under the old method?

Mark

Having seen many newly rated AFFI's over the years I have seen a decline in air skills in jumpers given their rating.

I do have several cases where my obsevations are, the AFFI was passed through the course because they had satisfactory teaching skills but lacked the ability to do a "real life" AFF jump, and IMO, only to be let loose to the beginning skydiver to refine their air skills.

Truely an AFFI get's more seasoned after doing a few hundered AFF jumps, but in the cases I have witnessed, the jumpers should never have been given the rating IMO.

You were a student of mine. I'm sure even during your student jumps you were thinking you wanted to become and Instructor and focused your air skills on becoming one. Good for you.
Feel free to PM me if you'd like me to explain my observations in detail.


Keepin' it safe!
Ed
I'm glad you

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Shark 0]

Hi Ed,

The post wasn't necessarily directed to you, but most of the guys that went through the old course tend to penalize those that have earned the rating in the new course.

"The rating requirements were watered down, therefore their flying abilities are substandard." The quote seems to be a blanket statement or opinion by some people.

Peace, out.

[gkc1436 3]

the USPA lowered the standards to become an AFFI.

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this i unfortunatly agree with
i got my rating in 96 at a don yarling course

i was started off with lvl 2's , then 1&2's, then 3's by the staff as a way of testing and introducing me to the real world of aff.
everyone on the staff had to agree that i was ready for single jumpmaster jumps before i was allowed to take one.
i wouldnt trade that method for anything.

i also wouldnt trade (hell week) for anything either
however much i hated evaluators dressed up and acting like a bubble brained stripper's or a maniac indian crop duster....
it was an extreme learning experience, that stripped away all or most of your ego, and left you with your flying/teaching skills.
while i appaude you for getting your rating, i dont think taking single jumpmaster students fresh out of the course is a good idea.
even yarling would state this in his course.

even after a 6 jump course, i wanted to take anything i could into the air.....after a few lower levels, i was glad i didnt.....

all a level 7 means is: they know enough to scare you more or hurt/kill themselves quicker

and.....NO tandom is not a valid teaching tool for one reason....
somewhere in the back of their heads....they know the person on their backs will pull for them.
used as an intro to canopy control or intro to turns ok....but nothing else

this sport is about self reliance/responsability

g

[Hooknswoop 19]

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"The rating requirements were watered down, therefore their flying abilities are substandard." The quote seems to be a blanket statement or opinion by some people.

It is a fact that USPA lowered the standards to become an AFFI and there are AFFI's out there that would not have passed the old course. I know of an AFFI that failed the old course twice, then passed the new course. He was't even in the video of an AFF level 1 I saw. That being said, there are AFFI's passing the course today that would have smoked the old course. The lowering of the standards isn't the AFFI's fault, it's USPA's and the member's for letting USPA (DZO's) do it.

But yes, because of the lower standards, new minted AFFI's are suspect in my eyes until they prove different. Not their fault, theypassed the course they were given, but it is still an easier course.

Derek

[Reginald 0]

Some interesting talk in this thread. I’ve heard that the AFFI standards have been lowered but could someone give me a quick recap of what was changed?
Personally, I’m interested in getting my AFFI but I have a great deal of respect for the air skills it takes to do the job properly. I am going to wait until I have more than enough skills to go for the AFFI. Ultimately, the question is “am I comfortable risking someone else’s life on my flying skills?” The AFFI’s at my DZ are some of the most talented flyers I’ve ever seen and average 7,000 plus jumps I know they can do the job, but could I at 400 or 700 or 900 jumps? (Rhetorical question)
I believe I could get the rating before I had the skills (in my opinion) to truly do the job. That is something I won’t risk and have no desire to do. And that is the core issue many of you are discussing, people getting the rating before they can do the job in all circumstances. What for the average AFFI is the number of jumps that they really have the skills to do the job? (I know it depends on a lot of things but let’s talk generalities)

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Shark 0]

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"The rating requirements were watered down, therefore their flying abilities are substandard." The quote seems to be a blanket statement or opinion by some people.

It is a fact that USPA lowered the standards to become an AFFI and there are AFFI's out there that would not have passed the old course. I know of an AFFI that failed the old course twice, then passed the new course. He was't even in the video of an AFF level 1 I saw. That being said, there are AFFI's passing the course today that would have smoked the old course. The lowering of the standards isn't the AFFI's fault, it's USPA's and the member's for letting USPA (DZO's) do it.

But yes, because of the lower standards, new minted AFFI's are suspect in my eyes until they prove different. Not their fault, theypassed the course they were given, but it is still an easier course.

Derek

I concur. Conversely, those passing under the old school doesn't necessarily mean that they are better, either. I've seen many an old school JM not able to fly their slot on FS jumps. You cannot judge anyone by when their rating was obtained. Again, we'll find out in the air.

[livendive 8]

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"The rating requirements were watered down, therefore their flying abilities are substandard." The quote seems to be a blanket statement or opinion by some people.

It is a fact that USPA lowered the standards to become an AFFI and there are AFFI's out there that would not have passed the old course. I know of an AFFI that failed the old course twice, then passed the new course. He was't even in the video of an AFF level 1 I saw. That being said, there are AFFI's passing the course today that would have smoked the old course. The lowering of the standards isn't the AFFI's fault, it's USPA's and the member's for letting USPA (DZO's) do it.

But yes, because of the lower standards, new minted AFFI's are suspect in my eyes until they prove different. Not their fault, theypassed the course they were given, but it is still an easier course.

Derek

I concur. Conversely, those passing under the old school doesn't necessarily mean that they are better, either. I've seen many an old school JM not able to fly their slot on FS jumps. You cannot judge anyone by when their rating was obtained. Again, we'll find out in the air.

I think it's tough to be objective on this topic. Let's face it, we're skydivers, and thus more prone to being egotistical. Old timers always want to believe they had it tougher, younger jumpers want to believe we're just as good. Personally, I think the best measure of someone's ability is the someone, not when or which course they passed. I'm sure there are some people passing courses today who are better than some of those who passed 8 years ago, however I also believe the course was tougher back then. All I know for certain is that I passed the course last year. I think the way my CD (Stokes) made it easier was by allowing pre-course practice jumps and then giving us honest assessments of our performance. He pretty bluntly told us whether he thought we were ready, but I do *not* believe he cut us any slack in the air. We had to do our ground preps, he would absolutely translate any pre-jump errors into our freefall experience, and he did plenty of ninja stuff to try and get away from us in the air.

He did tell me when he'd concluded that I have the airskills, and the next day I went up and passed my first 3 jumps (didn't need my mulligan). As he said, the real test is with real students. I'm a new AFF-I and have no delusions of grandeur, but I think the process proved that I have adequate air skills, in a manner that was similar but different than the process did for those who came before me. In addition to raw skills though, I think experience is a huge factor on AFF, and I still have to develop that.

As for the original question, I think the first time I found myself alone with a student in freefall was like my 7th jump. The first time I left an airplane as the only instructor on the jump was maybe my 15th or so.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rustywardlow 0]

Dear Sally
Even though you have the skills girl and you showed what you had during the course. Be careful of over inflated egos. The crawl walk run method works just fine in real life as it did in the course. Learn the system, you didn't do wheelies your first day on a bicycle, but don't be surprised if you walk up to manifest and they tell you that your on a level IV. It was fun teaching you and I would not have suggested that you complete the coures if I didn't think you had it.

[riggerrob 558]

I agree that new instructors should be eased into the program.
At Pitt Meadows, we generally start new PFF/Is on level 1 and level 2 dives (2 instructors).
Once everyone is confident that they are good at 2 on 1 dives, then we give them late (i.e. level 5) 1 on 1 dives.
Only after they have a dozen or more, do we give them first-release dives (level 3 or 4).
Throwing them into the deep end is a poor technique in teaching any skill.

[Pendejo 0]

I have heard the same thing (coarse has been made easy compared to before). The only thing I have yet to see, is anyone give comments discussing the specific changes. So far it has been general comments like "it was watered down" and so on. I recently went through the rating process and like one of the other posters I have no thoughts of grandeur. I have no delusions about someone with as few as 100 AFF jumps knowing considerably more than I would (regardless of their flying skills). I am interested in specifically what they changed in the "air skills" portion of the coarse that has produced such inferior instructors.

If the only SPECIFIC change that anyone can come up with (regarding the entire coarse) is that they actually put you in an environment where you can learn (I also went through a Stokes coarse) as opposed to taking your money and then spending a week trying to get you to punch them in the forehead for being an asshole and saying stupid shit like "I've got my rating" while they are generally fucking with you instead of instructing you and making you better. Then I believe that its ego talking not actual knowledge of the coarse changes (flame away sports fans, but be sure you list all those changes you were talking about).

From what I have seen in the 7 short years (no that is not sarcasm) I have been in the air, there are both old and new instructors that have no business in the air with a student. I have a little over 500 video jumps and have seen instructors do some pretty wild shit. There are also some really good instructors that both systems have produced (time will tell which one I am to be).

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[Hooknswoop 19]

I don't have the course material before/after (it's not available to just anyone), but have spoken at length with an AFFCCD and observed the new course. The AFFCCD admitted that he has to pass some candidates now that would have failed the old course and that he feels aren't ready to be an AFFI. You can become an AFFI w/o being able to catch a student falling back to earth.

Also, because of the course change, a candidate may fail more dives and still get their rating now.

At the 2001 PIA, there was a seminar about the shortage of AFFI's and shortly thereafter USPA lowered the standards to create more Instructors.

Derek

[livendive 8]

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You can become an AFFI w/o being able to catch a student falling back to earth.

Only if the evaluator chooses not to fall back to earth. If you don't catch a back-to-earth evaluator, or stop a spinning evaluator, or both, or in any other way fail to correct an unstable evaluator, it's an automatic unsat.

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Also, because of the course change, a candidate may fail more dives and still get their rating now.

Huh? You have to pass a Cat. C main side, a Cat. C reserve side, and a Cat.D. You have 4 tries available to you, thus you can only fail one dive. As soon as you fail a second jump, you're washed out. One of the guys in my course did just that (passed one but then failed two in a row).

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Only if the evaluator chooses not to fall back to earth. If you don't catch a back-to-earth evaluator, or stop a spinning evaluator, or both, or in any other way fail to correct an unstable evaluator, it's an automatic unsat.

If you pass the other 3 dives, you can fail the dive where the evaluator presents the student back to earth scenario and get your rating. Seen it happen.

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Huh? You have to pass a Cat. C main side, a Cat. C reserve side, and a Cat.D. You have 4 tries available to you, thus you can only fail one dive. As soon as you fail a second jump, you're washed out. One of the guys in my course did just that (passed one but then failed two in a row).

So you can barely pass 3 of 4 dives and fail one and get your rating. In the old course if you failed a dive and barely passed the others (one 'zero' and 5 'two's'), you don't get your rating.

The new course is easier to pass and candidates that would not have passed the old course are passing the new course.

Derek

[livendive 8]

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If you pass the other 3 dives, you can fail the dive where the evaluator presents the student back to earth scenario and get your rating. Seen it happen.

I would blame that on the evaluator, not the system. Since a failed dive can't possibly be a candidate's last in a course, failure to catch such a "student" should result in his seeing the same orientation at some point on his re-jump.

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So you can barely pass 3 of 4 dives and fail one and get your rating. In the old course if you failed a dive and barely passed the others (one 'zero' and 5 'two's'), you don't get your rating.

OK, I'll agree with that. I thought you were saying a person could fail more than one jump.

Personally, I passed the first three by substantial margins and didn't bother with a fourth jump. I tried to unsat my third jump by starting to celebrate early (during the bottom end dance), but I pulled my head out of my ass with a couple seconds to spare and ended up with a good score.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I would blame that on the evaluator, not the system. Since a failed dive can't possibly be a candidate's last in a course, failure to catch such a "student" should result in his seeing the same orientation at some point on his re-jump.

They kept rotating through 3 different scenarios, one of which was the back to earth. The candidate could not catch the back to earth evaulator, so he would pass 2 out of 3, eventually he had enough passes and got his rating. That is the current system.

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OK, I'll agree with that. I thought you were saying a person could fail more than one jump.

Exactly, the new course is easier to pass than the old course. USPA lowered the standards so that DZO's wouldn't have to pay AFFI's more and keep a large pool of AFFI's that they can draw from. Supply and demand to keep costs low.

Derek

[livendive 8]

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USPA lowered the standards so that DZO's wouldn't have to pay AFFI's more and keep a large pool of AFFI's that they can draw from. Supply and demand to keep costs low.

On a barely related note, does anyone know why AFF jumps don't pay more than tandem jumps? I mean getting an AFF rating is much more difficult than getting a tandem rating, is more difficult to actually do than a tandem, takes a lot longer to do than a tandem, and requires the instructor to use his own gear instead of dropzone gear. It would seem to me then that AFF jumps should pay considerably more than tandem jumps, but I've yet to see that be the case anywhere.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Hooknswoop 19]

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On a barely related note, does anyone know why AFF jumps don't pay more than tandem jumps?

Because there are enough AFFI's that will work for the same +/- as tandems. If there was less AFFI's or they refused to work for peanuts, then they would be paid more.

Derek