TIs: Line twists on Icarus mains?

[mfrese 0]

OK, yesterday I had my second chop on an Icarus tandem main due to line twists I could not untwist. Had a long trapdoor, and there were three twists before the main even started to open. I tried everything I knew to get out of these (had the student kick with me, had him get back in freefall position while I kicked, worked the twists down the risers so I could reach above them to untwist), and had no luck. This was on a relatively new Vectran line set (less than two weeks and under twenty jumps). And coincidentally, it was the same canopy I had my first tandem chop on 550 tandems ago...
So...any suggestions from you other experienced TIs on how to get out of these? It seemed like we were in a slow left turn the whole time due to uneven line tension, which may have contributed to the problem, but it was really frustrating the shit out of me to not be able to move them at all. Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

Doctor I ain't gonna die,
Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash

[ematteo 0]

Did you pull apart hard on the risers? This worked for me yesterday w. tandem line twists on an Icarus main.

[masher 1]

Just so that you know that you're not alone... There was a story in the Australina Skydiving Magazine a little while ago about a night tandem chop due to line twists. The TM and student did everything that they could to get out of them. THey suceeded in getting out of one line twist in about 1000', only about 8 to go. That one got chopped.

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[bclark 0]

Yes they occassionally open off heading, and due to the fact that they open in full flight they can often dive and change heading faster than you can. You can keep them pretty straight with the rear risers. I have only had serious line twists twice and was able to get out no problems both times.

In my opinion the sporty openings are a small price to pay for the best flying and landing tandem main around. And come on, they are high performance parachutes, unlike many of the mushy sky-barges other tandem manufacturers offer.

[AggieDave 6]

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And come on, they are high performance parachutes, unlike many of the mushy sky-barges other tandem manufacturers offer.

The Sigma main is the same plane form as a Vengence, obviously without airlocks...and well, a little larger.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[linestretch 0]

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In my opinion the sporty openings are a small price to pay for the best flying and landing tandem main around. And come on, they are high performance parachutes, unlike many of the mushy sky-barges other tandem manufacturers offer.

I so agree. I had one where the student had to kick with me. Took a while to get it done. I told the student we were gonna chop if he didn't help, and that got him kicking. Thank god he spoke english.

my pics & stuff!

[ryoder 1,412]

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In my opinion the sporty openings are a small price to pay for the best flying and landing tandem main around. And come on, they are high performance parachutes, unlike many of the mushy sky-barges other tandem manufacturers offer.

Sounds like you've never jumped a Sigma main. I jumped a 370 last week loaded at 1:1. In a spiral it cranked turns so fast I was concerned it might actually be possible to induce line-twist.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[livendive 8]

I had a long trapdoor followed by 8 or so line twists on an Icarus last week. I started thinking about chopping on 3 separate occasions...during the trapdoor, during the first 5 or so seconds under canopy (spinning line twists), and about 700 kicks later when I still had a couple twists to go (OK, maybe it just seemed like 700 ) . At one point I instructed my student to help me kick, but that was just frustration talking, as trying to time it so his input is of assistance rather than a detriment is an iffy proposition. In any case, he just assumed freefall position and left the line twists to me. It took me a little while, but I eventually got rid of all of them. Tandem line twists are a pain in the ass. You have to really exaggerate the kicks for them to be effective.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[JohnMitchell 14]

I've been enjoying the Sigma mains, too. Soft openings, light toggle pressure, and they fly straight in line twists. The line twists also seem to always clear without input from me. Maybe I'll get a chance to try the Icarus.

[skydiverton 0]

BT80 main

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[usskydiver 0]

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BT80 main

Opens hard when new and no 2 of them fly the same IMO (200+ Tandems using BT-80)

Tim T.

[bclark 0]

I have a couple hundred jumps on Sigma 370's. I love the way they open but that's where the love affair stops. They fly nice and are sporty on the toggles. I agree that the initial rate of turn on a toggle is signifigantly faster than on an Icarus main. BFD...! The toggle pressure is on the high side, which is not a big deal unless you jump big students or you are on your 10th tandem of the day. My biggest complaint about the Sigma tandem mains is that THEY LAND LIKE CRAP unless you do some sort of performance building maneuver ( braked approach, carving turn to final etc...). They are trimmed so flat that unless you carry a little extra airspeed into the flare you get a mushy landing. It's all good until you have that shitty setup that we all have from time to time on the no wind day and there is no altitude to setup a braked approach or it is super bumpy and your setup is screwed. I want a parachute that will deliver a positive flare in all conditions. Also I love the toggle pressure on the Icarus mains. I can rear riser them back from a long spot, and I can flare the biggest student that I am willing to take ( which is up to the 500 lb. TSO on the Sigma rig ) by myself. How many of you have ever had to land an unconscious tandem student?

Alot of people bitch about Icarus openings. I think good body position at pull time goes a long way.

We have people here who swear by the Sigmas too, as we have some of each. I guess it is all what you like. I do remember a rash of 6 malfunctions we had in a month period last year. All were very experienced tandem I's (1000+ tandems). 5 of the 6 were on Sigma mains less that a year old. All were due to tension knots. The one on an Icarus main was on a main with well over 1000 jumps on it. I have seen countless drogue entanglements with steering lines, drogues over noses, and one lost drogue due to a weak attach point on a Sigma main. Draw your own conclusion.

[AggieDave 6]

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All were due to tension knots.

Was that on the control line?

As we know, if packers don't untwist the brake lines, they can get weird and end up grabbing each other at the cascade point.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[linestretch 0]

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As we know, if packers don't untwist the brake lines,.

dude, it's a tandem. You have plenty of time to untwist the break lines under canopy so the packer can spend that time repacking the thing and getting it back up in the air. He's being paid to pack, not to untwist....just a thought.

my pics & stuff!

[AggieDave 6]

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dude, it's a tandem. You have plenty of time to untwist the break lines under canopy so the packer can spend that time repacking the thing and getting it back up in the air. He's being paid to pack, not to untwist....just a thought.

Hey, even with a TI that has attention to detail, sometimes things slip through. Its nice to know that a packer would notice something simple like that and fix it. Especially since it *can* cause the lines to grab each other at the cascades and create a tension knot.

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He's being paid to pack, not to untwist....just a thought

Where does it stop, though? A packer is paid to pack, not change a closing loop on a student rig or tandem if they notice its time, etc?

I guess you can say I'm spoiled, the staff packers at my DZ are top notch that are constantly watching over the students and people they pack for. Letting them know if they noticed something with their gear, "fixing" little things they notice like twisted brake lines or a ragged out closing loop. Although we as jumpers and staff try our best to keep them from having to deal with those sort of issues, sometimes things do slip through and its nice to know that they're also helping us watch for those sorts of issues.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[bclark 0]

On the question of where the tension knots were on the Sigma mains, I seem to recall that most were in the A / B lines on the outside cells, although some may have been steering lines. We have had plenty of instances where people have been able to clear them also.

[djmarvin 2]

I have also had the same problem on tandems. One thing I have been using that really helps is the same thing I do on my sport main. As soon as you can grab the riser, do so, and pull them apart. This has cut down DRAMATICALLY on linetwist on tandems for me. I don't recall having one since I started doing this

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

[dumeirelles 0]

It is nice to see so many considerations about these best tandem canopies, in my concern first icarus, second sigma.
As told here i ve heard many people complain about sigmas tension knots and icarus opening but i prefer icarus too, on landing no one beats it!
About icarus twist i had two this weekend , and the second one was the worst, I kicked a lot but didn't help, it helped me a lot when i decided to tend my weight to the opositte side of twist.

edu meirelles
www.boituvaparaquedismo.com.br

[skydiveoc 0]

RWS has told me that several DZ's are putting a stoe band on the slider and stoeing both steering lines on it to keep it orderly in the laydown.

I love my Sigmas and feel they have superior bottom end than any other canopy. As far as flying flat, try flying a SEt 400!

But...I have 8 chops in 2 years (about 2000 tandems) on sigmas and 0 on Icarus with the same numbers...all tension knots. Instructors pack mostly. A friend has had 2 canopies where drogues were torn off, lost and one main sigma lost. There is obviously a design flaw with that drogue attachment that PD refuses to acknowledge.

Interested in trying an A2 but I worry about material, a triathlon i owned about 10 years ago felt like paper mache after 500 jumps and I have my concerns about line trim and microline.

[rhys 0]

I'm not a super experienced t/m but have all my tandems on icarus, except for the 1 set 400 jump when i did my proficiency test.

i have had line twists twice on icarus both times were from uneven inflation. both times i just let the twist come out themselves. although the first time i was kicking like hell at first and nothing happened.until i just relaxed and they came out on thier own.
both times the canopy was flying straight.

stoked i didn't have to chop.

which leads me to a concern, i was reading another post about subterminal tandem reserve 'snivels'. apparently they have been up to a 3 thounsand feet openings?!?! due to being designed to withstand tandem terminal openings?

not much was mentioned to me about this during the process of getting my tandem rating. what is the 'hard deck' for chopping off linetwists?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[skydiverton 0]

Quote

Quote

BT80 main

Opens hard when new and no 2 of them fly the same IMO (200+ Tandems using BT-80)

Tim T.

About 2-3 years ago the BT-80 design has been changed a little. No need for rolling the nose or a special slider any more. These new design BT80 opens very nice and I do not have the idea they all fly different. There is a small difference between the old design and teh new design. The new design flies a little less sharp and is more difficult to stall

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[drakeshelby 0]

A few weeks ago i did three tandems and had line twist on all three. After kicking and pulling apart on the risers and not making too much progress; I had my student grab their harness and keep their legs together and I went limp and turned right out of them!

drakeshelby

[Danne 0]

Get a new packer

I have done 300 jumps now on my private Icarus 330 and only had one linetwist.

Tip:
Just look up and see what way the canopy is heading and what direction you want to untwist. Now just stick your hand and leg out on the appropriate side and grab as much air as you can. Since Icarus tandems open in full drive, the higher airspeed will make you start turning and help you untwist. Hope this makes sense?

/D

[beezyshaw 0]

I can offer a simple solution so that it doesn't result in chopping the main when line twists do occur on these canopies.

Simply reach up and get the steering toggle that will turn the canopy in the direction it needs to turn in order to fly out of the line twist, and slowly pull that toggle to initiate a turn. The canopy will immediately correct itself. Just don't pull the control line down too quickly or pump the toggle, to avoid friction with the other lines.

[dragon2 0]

Just a funny story: while going through tapes looking for other footage, I saw this video of a tandem master's training jump, shot with a hand cam by the passenger (a very experienced TM).

I didn't know what I was looking at at first, I only say the passengers head, with line twists all the way, and a big orange canopy I then realized must be the Icarus tandem demo we had for a while.

Then a loud "noooo!"



The TM in training wanted to cutaway right away.

"start kicking $%!"

Funny video anyway

ciel bleu,
Saskia