MakeItHappen 15 #1 June 25, 2004 I was wondering what instructors currently teach students about landing in high winds when the ground speed is < 10mph (forward or backward) and the wind is > 15mph.. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #2 June 25, 2004 What do you mean? Don't get behind your target? Flare gently? Stop, drop, reel and run? I must be tired, 'cause I'm not sure what specifically you are asking about. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #3 June 25, 2004 Quotewhen the ground speed is < 10mph (forward or backward) and the wind is > 15mph. I must also be tired. Backward ground speed? Do you mean backing up under canopy? Wind > 15 mph. When wind speed is less than 30 mph you should have some forward ground speed when flying into the wind. What do I teach students about landing in high winds? Simple, students are not allowed to jump in high winds. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #4 June 25, 2004 I will second the motion that our students do not jump if the winds are over 14 mph. Otherwise, I explain that on windier days, the landing pattern is tighter, "don't turn over anything you don't want to land on," and how to recover from drag.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #5 June 25, 2004 QuoteQuotewhen the ground speed is < 10mph (forward or backward) and the wind is > 15mph. I must also be tired. Backward ground speed? Do you mean backing up under canopy? Wind > 15 mph. When wind speed is less than 30 mph you should have some forward ground speed when flying into the wind. What do I teach students about landing in high winds? Simple, students are not allowed to jump in high winds. It isn't so simple. We shouldn't let our students jump in high winds, but we are training them for life-long participation, and certainly we can expect them to get into a backing up situation at some point. We don't need to worry about high wind landings on the first few jumps, but the topic should be covered at some point prior to graduation. I think students should be trained that the flare is sometimes all the way down and aggressive, but less so if the winds are high. If you are backing up and flare the same way you do in no winds, your parachute will crash, so students should understand the differences. They should know that backing up is possible, and in fact will likely happen to them at some point in a long jumping career...it shouldn't be a surprise when it does happen. Likewise, they should know about pulling a toggle to collapse the parachute, running around the parachute to get upwind, containing the nose, disconnecting the RSL after opening in very unexpected high winds.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chriswelker 0 #6 June 25, 2004 What do you teach them, Jan? Chris Welker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #7 June 25, 2004 I didn't take students up in winds over 14 mph, but for post- A license jumpers asking about landing in high winds, I told them to simply landing same as they do in zero winds, only difference is to be 'primed' to collaspe their canopy as soon as their feet touch the ground. Find that FAR yet? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #8 June 25, 2004 Before I had my A licence I had already encountered having to land backing up. I don't recall anyone ever explaining to me what to do in that case. At the time I was going to land in a field with sprinkler heads that were set about 3 feet above ground and about 10 ft in a grid threw out the field. I was very concerned about hitting one of them and doing myself serious damage. Some how I realized that I would not have to flare as much as normal and continue to control the canopy after touching ground and directing it into the ground to avoid being dragged. I have recently noticed experienced skydivers that as soon as they touch ground immediately stop controlling their canopies and end up getting dragged. I don't have a lot of jumps so I have never said anything. I don't think that it would be well received from someone that doesn't have thousands of jumps. Students should be taught what to do if they ever find themselves having to land in high winds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #9 June 25, 2004 Quote Otherwise, I explain that on windier days, the landing pattern is tighter, "don't turn over anything you don't want to land on," and how to recover from drag. I think the middle one is the biggie for us to know. The approach on landing is far steeper than I would have imagined and Monterey has some nasties if you wait too long to turn back in (barb wire fence). The other bit that comes to mind from my short time is that as soon as you've confirmed your canopy is good you should turn upwind and then look for your designated student playground. At 5000ft you can quickly get blown outside the landing cone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #10 June 25, 2004 Remember to stress that almost landing in the safe bit really sucks. Not recognizing that they are not going to make the field and thus foregoing the perfectly good field next door in favour of the blackberries (or worse) is a particular habit of the 25-100 jump crowd. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #11 June 26, 2004 Wow - these replies certainly provided some unintended insights. The comment of ' When wind speed is less than 30 mph you should have some forward ground speed when flying into the wind.' was a definite insight into the fact that some may have forgot what it was like flying larger parachutes. This may lead to no instruction on what to do when backing up or additional pressure to downsize. Today's instructors may assume a student's canopy experience is much like theirs. It may be significantly different. Jumpers (whether on student status or not) can backup under canopy when the winds are +20. Very lightweight jumpers may backup under lower wind conditions. These comments ' What do I teach students about landing in high winds? Simple, students are not allowed to jump in high winds.' and ' I will second the motion that our students do not jump if the winds are over 14 mph.' are also indicative of a training problem. As Tom said, what is taught on student status carries on to a jumper's future jumps. Jumping in higher winds than while on student status is one of the very first new experiences new jumpers have. It makes sense to train them while on student status about high wind landings. For the record, I agree that students should not be jumping in winds over 14 mph. We all know winds can come up after you jump. As to what I was asking, I was looking for the technique of the actual landing itself eg touchdown and collapsing the parachute, although I left the question as is in case someone felt like explaining the pattern too. I was wondering if you taught people to pivot about their right or left leg or does it matter??? Why or why not? Do you teach the technique of 'standing on the bridle line' or 'standing on the downwind side of the canopy', once you have the canopy grounded and are trying to gather it into your arms? I do not want to give my answer right now because that would bias what other people might say. Chris - my ratings have expired so I do not teach students anymore, but I do teach experienced jumpers. A lot of them have not learned or have forgotten 'basics'. As far as explaining the pattern when you backup, does anyone draw a picture as in this draft article? Thanks .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #12 June 28, 2004 QuoteI was wondering if you taught people to pivot about their right or left leg or does it matter??? Why or why not? Do you teach the technique of 'standing on the bridle line' or 'standing on the downwind side of the canopy', once you have the canopy grounded and are trying to gather it into your arms? This is mostly about what you do with 'the big kite attached to your shoulders' after you have landed, isn't it? We DO teach our students the techniques that work best and we teach them from day one. (??? Short sharp flare close to the ground, let go one toggle AFTER touchdown AND turn around in the direction of the toggle you are stil holding. Let go of the other toggle - "nosedive" the canopy into the ground / run towards the canopy & around it - stop on the other side of the canopy. Gather your canopy.) Up until now we saw ONE student apply this method as early as jump nr 2. I guess he doesn't count since he has been at the DZ since birth, has made 8 tandem jumps prior to his first solo and makes his pocket money as video-editor. On screen and in reality he must have seen a lot more landings than the average student and seeing other people being laughed at is a strong motivating force...So, We also teach our students the 'second best'-method (When dragged pull in one control line till you get hold of the canopy. Get up. Walk around it) Finally we teach them 'third best'-method (If you chop it cause one and two don't work for you or you forgot about it and it is dragging you towards the lions den / edge of the cliff / into the prop - or you are incapacitated to reel in a control line - your RSL might pop your reserve and it might come out yet it DOES NOT deploy. Inconvenience rather than life threatening...) We live on a windy island. All other students 'sort of' remembered method 2 or 3 when dragged through the terrain ... So for them we repeat lesson one after they have gained some first hand experience, which is - as we all know - invaluable to get the students attention when teaching a particular subject... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #13 June 29, 2004 This is interesting. I have never gone backwards under canopy, but I was never spoken to about what should be done if that happened, either, so basically, I may be unprepared for it. Of course, at this point, my wind limit is lower than the actual amount of wind it would take to blow me backward... but, I have heard horror stories of winds increasing by a large margin in a short time, so it would still be nice to hear everyone's ideas of what should be done if you are landing backward. I guess I always just assumed flare lightly and be prepared to roll... i'm interested to see the "real" procedures. Good post, Jan! Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #14 June 30, 2004 Quoteit would still be nice to hear everyone's ideas of what should be done if you are landing backward. 1. Don't turn the canopy to see where you are going 2. Don't flare too high. 3. Find somebody who can teach you a backward PLF (hint: Some 'well seasoned' fellow jumpers used to know no better when they were jumping rounds. My estimate is that 90% of my first 50 jumps I landed backwards and all my bones remained intact. If you flare a student canopy to high it behaves like a round canopy for all practical purposes...) 4. Increase of lift is in the first part of the flare, stopping forward speed is at the end of the flare - so you might not want to flare as completely as you are used to. "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #15 July 3, 2004 Well I was looking for different things and did not find them on this thread. The hot tip I give is to pivot about your left toggle. That means dropping the right toggle as soon as you feel weight on your feet, do a gymnastic type turn and run around the canopy and try to stand on the bridle line as you pick up the canopy. The reason I think a left pivot is better than a right pivot is because your right hand is available to pull the cutaway handle in case it is REALLY windy and you cannot run around the canopy or step on the bridle line. I was wondering if that came into anyone else's game plan? But there have been times, because of the terrain or wind and the change in balance of landing that gave me, that I ended up doing a right pivot. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parachutist 1 #16 July 4, 2004 QuoteWell I was looking for different things and did not find them on this thread. The hot tip I give is to pivot about your left toggle. That means dropping the right toggle as soon as you feel weight on your feet, do a gymnastic type turn and run around the canopy and try to stand on the bridle line as you pick up the canopy. The reason I think a left pivot is better than a right pivot is because your right hand is available to pull the cutaway handle in case it is REALLY windy and you cannot run around the canopy or step on the bridle line. I was wondering if that came into anyone else's game plan? But there have been times, because of the terrain or wind and the change in balance of landing that gave me, that I ended up doing a right pivot. . I have always thought the run-around-the-canopy idea is a hokey technique to teach newbies because it only works in low to moderate wind conditions.... when you don't *really* need it. A method that works every time is the previously-mentioned one: drop either toggle... reel one brake line in hand over hand til you get to the fabric... reel the fabric in hand over hand and very soon you have the entire canopy wadded up in your lap. End of problem in a few seconds. Shortcomings I find with the Run-around-your-canopy idea: 1) You can't do it in 30 mph winds 2) You can't do it when you're getting dragged on your back 3) You can't do it when you land on top of a building Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #17 July 25, 2004 Personally, I teach: 1. Collapse your canopy by pulling in on one toggle. 2. If winds are high, run around the other side of the canopy. 3. If you are being dragged, keep pulling on the toggle until the canopy collapses. 4. If you are being dragged towards something that will hurt you (i.e. a highway or a cliff) cut away the main parachute. The reserve container will open but the reserve will not inflate. 5. Once you are on your own, do not jump in high winds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
