TM Poll: Disconnect RSL prior to jump?

[billvon 2,400]

>I disconnect my RSL after a successful opening, just in case I have to
>ground chop in high-winds.

Unfortunately, the time an RSL will save your life is during a low-altitude cutaway, which in your case occurs after you have disconnected it. Disconnecting the RSL in case of a ground cutaway is a convenience issue; it adds nothing to safety since your reserve will not deploy on the ground even in relatively high winds.

[AggieDave 6]

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Unfortunately, the time an RSL will save your life is during a low-altitude cutaway

How much of a difference do you think it would make, knowing how long a tandem reserve takes to open when not at tandem terminal?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,400]

>How much of a difference do you think it would make, knowing how
> long a tandem reserve takes to open when not at tandem terminal?

That makes it even more important! If you see you're at 600 feet with a destroyed main you might chop out of instinct (based on your experience with your sport reserve which always opens in 200-300 feet) - and the RSL might just save your life.

[Liemberg 0]

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why do you need a RSL if you have an AAD as well......

I don't NEED an RSL
I don't NEED an AAD

Then again, either one may save me some day.
They work differently and have different pro's and cons.

I do NEED a properly deployed parachute when I jump out of flying airplanes... if that comes with a fail-safe system which works always my job could become boring - but there are lots of people with boring jobs...

For the time being, there is no fail safe system and I should be doing the best I can.

RSL will not save me if I can't get the drogue out and get too pre-occupied with the task at hand; AAD might come in handy, there...

AAD and / or PSL will not save me if I end up with a spinning mal that doesn't descend fast enough to trigger the device.

AAD will not save met if I cut away to close to the ground to regain enough speed for it to work before returning to terra firma. RSL might save me there.

All things considered, I might as well try to save myself.

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[AggieDave 6]

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If you see you're at 600 feet with a destroyed main you might chop out of instinct

That seems more like an arguement for the Skyhook then a RSL, at 600ft I don't see how the extra .20 seconds would really and truely help you.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diablopilot 2]

Explain how an AAD replaces an RSL? It doesn't.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[NightJumper 0]

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Explain how an AAD replaces an RSL? It doesn't.

Even though I know where you are going with this, it does by the way you asked your question since they both activate your reserve. Even though they perform differently the end result is the same....deployment of the reserve.

[egons 0]

Firstly, I am only rated on RWS systems... personally I am not at all keen to have an RSL connected if there is no Collins Lanyard. The riser is designed to fail - we obviously want the riser to fail before the MLW, so in understanding that risers do and have broken the Collins Lanyard is a clear solution to this issue.
Each and every Tandem Instructor/Examiner has their own opinion on what works and what system is deemed to be the safest. If we understand the tandem incidents that have occurred on a RWS or any other manufacturers system and look for solutions we more than likely can find the answer. The manufacturers invest many dollars into research and testing to produce what they deem to be a safe tandem system, so if a manufacturer recommends the use of a RSL its because there is enough evidence and testing put forth to warrant it.

Threads like this are very interesting and it is always interesting to see what instructors are thinking and doing... as long as we all keep learning it all good

"Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!"

[obelixtim 100]

They are both designed as a back up system for an extreme situation........but an AAD will do something a RSL won't...activate the reserve in a high speed situation when its time to slow down...(as long as it works)....

There is only one real AAD.....the T/M....if he screws up something he is able to control....he shouldn't be there in the first place.......

I have no desire to jump with a RSL, ever, but an AAD is a good idea.....I'll take one every time....but I would never ever expect to use it if I'm in control of the skydive......

An AAD fire is basically a bounce that didn't happen, and unless something really unusual has caused the T/M to need its help.... I think it would be rating removal time for the T/M...

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[des 2]

you got mostof the ron.i've done 7000 tandems all on strongs,every country and dz i've jumped with strong have the rsl permanently disconnected,which i totally agree with.i've had 20 cutaways of various types annd would neer jump a strong with a rsl.

[crutch 0]

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That makes it even more important! If you see you're at 600 feet with a destroyed main you might chop out of instinct (based on your experience with your sport reserve which always opens in 200-300 feet) - and the RSL might just save your life.

This is where you and I may differ, I am doing a canopy transfer at 600', and trust me, it will be instinctive!

blue skies,

art

[tspillers 0]

Egon,

How much longer until the patent is up on the Collin's Lanyard?

I would imagine we will see that on other rigs at that point, but who knows?

Todd

I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.

[livendive 8]

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*) edited to clarify: When for some obscure reason my left arm is incapacitated after/during the cutaway, without an RSL and with a student in front I'm running out of options...

If you're jumping a rig with a right-side RSL that's merely disconnected, (i.e. not completely removed from the rig) you still have that option.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[livendive 8]

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Many experience skydivers these days base their "opinion' of RSL's on two things:

1. Ego. "I don't need it, I'm faster/better/too experienced for one".

2. Sense of control. "I decided I didn't need one so I took it off."

Fact is there are several counts of people needing an RSL who died when they didn't have one.

3. I want the *option* of staging my emergency procedures to include a slight delay between cutaway and reserve pull. I will deploy my reserve when I think it's appropriate and do not want some mechanical (or electronic) gadget making that decision for me.

I do wear an RSL on tandem jumps and advise RSLs for anyone who has not yet had a cutaway (unless they're doing CRW).

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Liemberg 0]

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If you're jumping a rig with a right-side RSL that's merely disconnected, (i.e. not completely removed from the rig) you still have that option.

??????
First reconnect the RSL, then chop?

Besides, chances are you are not jumping a Strong Dual Hawk then. The valid safety bulletin in my obscure little country that allows me to disconnect the RSL if I have a switched-on-and-well-maintained AAD only goes for THAT particular rig.

Now purists among the crowd here probably would argue that I should get a different brand in order to give my poor students the best possible safety.

For me that would mean buying four (4) new tandem rigs.

I'll consult my sponsors.

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[crutch 0]

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??????
First reconnect the RSL, then chop?

I think he is talking about vectors...you can deploy the reserve by simply grabbing the RSL and pulling it up and away from you. (I have done this on the ground and it does work!)

blue skies,

art

[livendive 8]

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First reconnect the RSL, then chop?

Besides, chances are you are not jumping a Strong Dual Hawk then.

You are correct that I'm not jumping a Strong. I'm rated on the Vector and the Eclipse, both of which have a little hackey-sack handle on the RSL that allows for a right-hand reserve pull. I didn't know that Strong's don't have that option.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[flipper 0]

right there with you on that one.....all my tandems on strong....several cutaways....no RSL required

Flipper

[tandembrent 0]

i only disconect the rsl when i will be landing in high winds!

i have however, recently been considering jumping with it disconected. with that said, i had a mid- canopy line-over sat. morning that was spinning imediately and gaining speed. we were also facing up during the spin. this position did come to the front of my mind while reaching for the handles, but i left it intact. after the chop i watched the pilot-chute and bag arc away from the left and our spinning innertia gave me 1080 deg. of line twist on the reserve, no prob. there.

my reason's for not taking the time to disconect the rsl are these;
- i didn't beleive due to the spin that i would regain stability with choke-O the meat monkey

- i was already at 3000ft agl (lots of alti loss from spin)

i will forever-more continue to fly TANDEMS with the rsl conected.

besides, i like to think (kid myself) that i can beat the rsl on a clean cut-away!! haha

peace,
brent

***

~~~~Green grass and high clouds forever~~~~
no matter where you go, there you are!

[skydiverjerry 0]

i just gotta post

first of all THE MANUFACTURA installs a safty device and you want to disconect it?

why?

an accident is caused by a chain of events if you can break the chain no accident!

i have not seen any manufacturers safety notice requiring me to disconect / stop using my RSL or have i missed it?

safety devices are there for when things get realy bad only then do you need those safety devices!

gotta stop before i rant

deep breath
ok just out of quiriosity what would be the legal situation if RSL diconected and you have a mal and go in or low opening and break a few bones could you be taken to court for disconecting theRSL? just a thought

blue ones out there
sorry for the bad spellinf

life is a journey not to arrive at the grave in a pristine condition but to skid in sideways kicking and screaming, shouting "fuck me what a ride!.

[Liemberg 0]

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i have not seen any manufacturers safety notice requiring me to disconect / stop using my RSL or have i missed it?

Requiring no, allowing yes. You might have missed it but there was a safety bulletin on Strong tandem rigs a couple of years ago. Riser broke at RSL side, RSL opened reserve, main and reserve entangled. Strong TM's are given the option to disconnect the RSL when they have a working AAD since then.

You can be taken to court anytime but I wouldn't worry to much about that if you went in...
(other than that the manufacturer ALLOWS you to disconnect it, sooo...)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[tspillers 0]

RWS recommends disconnecting (I teach at about 1000' agl) for high winds in case you need to do a ground chop. I teach candidates to do this for every landing to have the routine.

Todd

I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.

[diablopilot 2]

The last thing I want to do at 1000'agl is take my hands out of the 2 sets of toggles, especialy with the trafic I fly tandems in.

If there isn't someone to sjag tandems as I come in AND I can't control the canopy (hasn't happened yet) the I'll reach ove and disconect it then just chop the motherfucker. Even if I didn't get the RSL unhooked the container will open but no way the reserve is getting deployed. Takes a lot more than 25mph breeze to drag that 18lbs canopy and freebag through all those flaps and line stowes.

Oh, that is unless it's a "Skyhook" equiped tandem. Hrrmmmm... a negative point maybe?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tspillers 0]

I teach teh 1000' as a minimum. I find myself disconnecting it one I have a good canopy and have looked around for traffic.

A skyhook ground chop on a sport rig pulled the freebag to line extension. Granted the winds were gusting to 40mph. Winds blew up after they had exited.

I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.

[riggerrob 558]

Far easier to tell your student to hold his toggles at hip level - until you tell him otherwise.
Meanwhile, you reach up and grab an extra yard/meter of control line and haul it down to your hip level.
This is - by far - the fastest method of collapsing a tandem canopy, faster than shaggers.
In 18 years and 2900 tandems, I have never had to cut one away on the ground.