TM Poll: Disconnect RSL prior to jump?

[jdfreefly 1]

This is mostly for Strong Tandem jumpers but it applies to both.

I was reading over one of the other polls and I saw someone, I think it was Aggie Dave, state that he disconnects the RSL after a successfull opening. Before I get flamed, I am not banging on whoever said it, just interested in our collective opinions and the reasons for them.

One of the Fatalities I was told about during the course resulted from a broken riser that deployed the reserve, due to the RSL, and resulted in a main reserve entanglement.

I have never made a tandem jump with the RSL hooked up and I never intend to. In fact if I went to a DZ that insisted on it I would decline to make the skydive.

Also, part of my gear check is to check the spot on the riser where the ring rubs on it. This is where the riser that broke failed.

I am not Vector or Sigma rated so I don't know the rules and regs on those systems. Are you even allowed to disconnect it?

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

I am not Vector or Sigma rated so I don't know the rules and regs on those systems. Are you even allowed to disconnect it?

No.

Quote

I have never made a tandem jump with the RSL hooked up and I never intend to.

Then you are doing your students a huge dis-service by not providing them with every saftey measure possible. Do you inform each and every one of them of this fact?

AAD's have been shown to fail. DO you refuse to turn yours on?

Would you make an AFF student take their RSL off prior to jumping?

Quote

One of the Fatalities I was told about during the course resulted from a broken riser that deployed the reserve, due to the RSL, and resulted in a main reserve entanglement.

The fatality you speak of was not caused by the RSL, it was caused by poor gear maintinence. Guess what? Risers are consumable items that should be changed frequently. There is also a system in place on every Sigma Tandem system that prevents sutch a scenario. I don't know if Stong systems have a collins lanyard but if they don't, why?

Quote

I was reading over one of the other polls and I saw someone, I think it was XXXXXXX, state that he disconnects the RSL after a successfull opening.

I don't agree with that procedure either. you may still need it.

I still defy anyone to show a case where a single riser RSL was the cause of a fatality.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AggieDave 6]

If Strong had a proper collin's laynard type system (I really like how cleanly RWS' Sigma does it), then it would truely be a non-issue.

I disconnect my RSL after a successful opening, just in case I have to ground chop in high-winds. I disconnect it no matter what the winds are. Why? Its due to the fact that I have a routine, routines can save your life, sort of like I touch ALL of my handles on every single dive after the drogue is tossed. It would seem to reason that if I actually *had* to ground chop due to getting drug on landing, that would be the day I forgot to disconnect the RSL since it wasn't apart of my routine.


Before opening, though, IMHO the RSL is a good tool to have in your employ, the Skyhook is even better.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Hooknswoop 19]

900 tandem jumps. I would disconnect it before jumping for Eclipse rigs, leave it connected for Sigmas and Vectors with the collin's lanyard.

Quote

I am not Vector or Sigma rated so I don't know the rules and regs on those systems. Are you even allowed to disconnect it?

The FAR's specify that the AAD must be installed and turned on, but nothing about an RSL.

On all 3 of my tandem reserve rides i didn't have the RSL connected.

I saw video of a reserve entanglement after a tandem cutaway and the RSL deployed the reserve. Fortunately it cleared.

Derek

[jdfreefly 1]

Quote

Then you are doing your students a huge dis-service by not providing them with every saftey measure possible. Do you inform each and every one of them of this fact?

I don't see it that way. Untill I am given a satisfactory reason on why that riser failed and I am convinced whatever the problem was is fixed, that RSL stays disconected. And no, I don't inform them of this fact. I try not to freak them out any more than they already are by giving them a history of tandem fatalities and how those fatalities have affected how I choose to instruct.

Quote

The fatality you speak of was not caused by the RSL, it was caused by poor gear maintinence. Guess what? Risers are consumable items that should be changed frequently.

The information I was given on that fatality indicated that the riser in question was well within it's usefull life range. Also, I know of at least one riser where there was wear in the spot I mentioned with very few jumps on it. The wear was found during a pre flight inspection and the rig was immediately grounded. When the riser was sent back and tested, it failed at considerably less stress than it should have. Don't ask me for numbers, I don't have a photographic memory.

Quote

I don't know if Stong systems have a collins lanyard but if they don't, why?

They do not and I do not know why. At least, none of the 20 some rigs I have jumped had them. Maybe people have installed them on rigs they personally own. If they have, I would like to hear about it...that is kind of the point of a thread like this.

Quote

I still defy anyone to show a case where a single riser RSL was the cause of a fatality.

And I defy you to conclusively 100% absolutely prove to me that the fatality I mentioned was not caused by the RSL. Regardless of whether or not the gear was properly maintained, that RSL was a factor in that fatality.

If I saw a system that could ensure me a clean release of both risers on the Strong rigs I jump, I would use it. But as long as it is a single riser RSL it will not be connected on any rig I jump.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[diablopilot 2]

Again, would you advise an AFF student to jump without an RSL?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[jdfreefly 1]

Absolutely not. And besides, I don't have the choice of that since an RSL is required for AFF students. I would have to check the BSRs but at our DZ it is required for anyone without a license.

This is not about RSLs. This is about RSLs on a tandem rig. The 2 things are entirely different animals.

I am not an AFF student. I am a skydiver with decent experience and the input of other instructors with over 5000 tandems under their belt. I feel the risk of me not pulling that silver handle in time is far lower than the risk of that RSL pulling my reserve for me when I do not want it pulled. Just my opinion.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

This is not about RSLs.

It is.

You are contradicting yourself in your logic.

Quote

This is about RSLs on a tandem rig. The 2 things are entirely different animals.

How so? If you're refering to the rise break scenario, the out come would be the same on a sport rig, and a tandem rig.

If you're insinuating the drouge attachment point changes everything about RSL usage, I'll point out that if you're riser is put inder enough tension to release or break causing the RSL to deploy the reserve BEFORE you've activated the drouge release, you f'ed up a whole bunch of seconds earlier.....

Quote

I am not an AFF student. I am a skydiver with decent experience and the input of other instructors with over 5000 tandems under their belt.***

And every bit a prone to having a problem pulling that unfamiliar handle you can probably reach easily with only your left hand.

At least the AFF student has a two hand on one handle method drilled into them recently, and a very simple procedure, vs. the increadibly complex flow chart you'll need to work through.

I feel the risk of me not pulling that silver handle in time is far lower than the risk of that RSL pulling my reserve for me when I do not want it pulled. Just my opinion.


Exactly. My opinion sugests you take a hard look at some of the other tandem fatalities, and why there were no / pull ow pull incidents.

Then check the fatality reports since about 1980 and see how many "experienced" skydivers went in after cutting away witha now pull / low pull.

I think you'll find quite a few that would have stood a better chance of giving you their suport for RSL's if they'd had them.

Many experience skydivers these days base their "opinion' of RSL's on two things:

1. Ego. "I don't need it, I'm faster/better/too experienced for one".

2. Sense of control. "I decided I didn't need one so I took it off."

Fact is there are several counts of people needing an RSL who died when they didn't have one.

AAD's DO NOT replace RSL's

As a foot note I'll add a Colins lanyard should be on every rig out there with an RSL. Sport rigs too....

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[nightjumps 1]

Quote

I would disconnect it before jumping for Eclipse rigs

Derek,

Please elaborate. I jump an Eclipse.

Keith

[skydiverton 0]

Never disconnected a RSL on a tandem. (Not allowed according to dutch regulations
Jumped Vector with collins lanyard and
French ATOM. The ATOM has a RSL to both risers (LOR2). Activation of the reserve will take place after disconnection of both risers. Is this system that bad or are the US-manufacturers too proud to use this system.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[Liemberg 0]

Quote

Never disconnected a RSL on a tandem. (Not allowed according to dutch regulations)

Re the manufacturer you are allowed to disconnect the RSL on Strong tandems as long as you have a properly maintained and calibrated AAD turned on.
(This is AFAIK and from the top of my head; the way I read the dutch regulations it is allowed if the manufacturer allows it. Moreover, there was a safetybulletin about this issue with Strong tandems when the main-reserve-entanglement fatality happened that started with a broken riser.)
One other thing: When a riser breaks because it is 'misrouted' during packing (i.e. forgotten to push the large riser ring back in place) there will be signs on the ring. We sent a riser back to Strong last year that had none such signs, yet had been broken on an opening. On that particular jump weight was well within limmits and the opening was described as pretty normal - except for the (right side) riser breaking.

Other than that, I have had at least one reserve-ride on a tandem where on the ground I found the RSL still in place
Apparently I didn't need it then.
Neither did I have to buy new cutters

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[skydiverton 0]

This is AFAIK and from the top of my head; the way I read the dutch regulations it is allowed if the manufacturer allows it

If I read this regulations the way you do:
- You have to have an AAD on a tandemrig, but you do not have to switch it on
- You need a passenger harness but it is not forbidden to hook up during freefall.

BULLSHIT if the regulations require a RSL you have to use it.

Perhaps you should try a rig which eliminates this broken riser problem by DESIGN. If you think a safety device can cause a safety risk use a rig that does not have this device (if allowed) or has a monkey-proof construction

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Please elaborate. I jump an Eclipse.

No collin's lanyard.

Derek

[Ron 7]

Quote

I still defy anyone to show a case where a single riser RSL was the cause of a fatality.

Here ya go.....

Quote

Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL?
1/30/1997 Taupo, New Zealand MAL,DMAL? 35 2500 ?/Y
Description: After cutting away from a malfunction, it appears one riser hung up, while the side with the RSL released, casuing the reserve to deploy between the remaining riser. This riser then seperated, and the main ending up choking off the reserve. The pair decended on the partially inflated main which was caught on the wholly uninflated reserve.
Lessons:Some of the above is speculation, but it's a good reminder to perform your three ring maintenance regularly. If you don't know what I'm referring to, you should talk to your local rigger. In a nutshell, disconnect your main, flex the webbing of the three ring, clean the yellow cable with a dry cloth, (for metal housings) lightly oil the cable, reconnect the main, perform a line check, and pack it.


How about this one?
6/22/1997 Umatilla, FL MAL? 42 7500 Y?/Y
Description: At the end of a normal tandem skydiver, the student pulled the ripcord at about 5500 feet. The left main riser broke, which in turn activated the reserve static line lanyard (RSL). The RSL immediately pulled the reserve ripcord cables while the right-hand main riser was still attached. The reserve pilot chute and free-bag cleared, but the reserve canopy entangled with the spinning main. The main was then cut away, but failed to clear the reserve. The student survived the landing, the JM did not. The Master 425 main was equipped Dacron with suspension lines. The type VII risers were manufactured in May 1996 and had the new heavy duty 3-rings. The rings were properly positioned during drogue fall, and appeared normal. The type VII webbing broke about 1" above the lower end; the type IV holding the small ring broke just below the grommet. Neither of the two rings from the left riser were recovered, nor was the cutaway handle or the reserve ripcord. All equipment was less than three years old and in good condition. Instructor and student total weight was about 380 pounds.
Lessons:Perhaps a defective riser?

Heres another
Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL?
7/12/2000 Elsinore, CA DMAL 27 Y/Y
Description: The Navy was at Elsinore training Seals; they had their own instructors and their own equipment. At the time of this report, no detailed analysis of the rig has yet been made. This report is based on preliminary examinations and eyewitness accounts. The student ( training under the Navy's equivalent of AFF) deployed his main normally at around 4500 feet. During the main deployment the RSL somehow deployed his reserve which then entangled in the main. Someone supposedly had seen that his main was square and apparently flyable while the reserve was completely fouled and entangled in his main lines. No one directly witnessed the incident while the student was between 4000 and 2500 feet. Somewhere during that interval the student apparently cutaway his main which then collapsed and remained entangled with his fouled reserve. It was believed that if he had not cutaway, he may have been able to land relatively safely on his main. The reserve was apparently NOT deployed by his CYPRES: the preliminary examination revealed a kink in the reserve ripcord where the RSL must have pulled against it while it was still under tension from the closing loop. As soon as the rig is released by the coroner more detailed examinations are going to happen by the DZO, the USPA, the rig manufacturer and the Navy. It is unknown at this time what pulled the RSL, it may have been improperly routed and was pulled on line stretch, or it may have been caught by a toggle. It is also unknown if this type of malfunction is particular to this type of rig or is an industry-wide concern. The Navy has stood down their training and grounded all of their equipment until more is known about the true cause of the incident.
Lessons:Dual canopy out malfunctions are nasty. Discuss appropriate procedures with a local instructor. Cutting away from an inflated main when the reserve fouled is not a recommended course of action.

One that can show the drawbacks of an RSL.
Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL?
9/22/2001 Picton, Australia DMAL 34 360 ?/Y
Description: After a camera jump, this jumper experienced spinning line twists on his Stilleto 135. He was unable to clear them and cutaway at perhaps 1800'. His reserve (an Airforce 120) opened (via RSL, though reserve handle was also pulled roughly simultaneously) slider-up with line twists, and he impacted in a spin still trying to kick out of the twists. The reserve was very highly loaded, at 1.7 lb/ft^2. Video review of the incident shows that the deceased may have been kicking the wrong direction to get the reserve to untwist, and was not observed to be pulling the risers apart to aid the untwisting.
Lessons:There is some reason to believe that pausing briefly after cutting away from a seriously spinning malfunction can aid in reserve deployment. However, pausing also eats up valuable altitude, which is also an increased risk. An RSL removes your choice in this matter, but does insure a rapid deployment after a low cutaway. Note that this forum doesn't post the incidents where someone cutaway low, and their RSL saves them.

Another one.
9/30/2001 Opelika, AL DMAL 48 308 Y/Y
Description: Due to a hard opening, this jumper broke one of the D lines on his canopy, a 230 Rascal. it went into a spin, so he cut it away. The rapid deployment of the reserve via the RSL resulted in his capturing the reserve pilot chute on his right arm. One report indicates the reserve lines also entangled with his neck. The reserve never cleared the freebag. He was found dead at the scene. A second report from someone involved with the investigation reports that the RSL had nothing to do with it; I await further details.
Lessons:RSL's are a mixed blessing. For novice jumpers, they provide insurance against failure to pull the reserve after a cutaway, a relatively frequent occurrence in the pre-CYPRES past. This incident may illustrate the downside of an RSL.

There are more.

I know of a student in FL that died from an RSL...I can't find the lik to it however.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[crutch 0]

Thank you Ron, I was going to put my two cents worth in, but you summed it up pretty nicely!

blue skies,

art

[nightjumps 1]

OK. I had one put on mine.

[obelixtim 100]

Tandem bounce in NZ 1997.....RSL deployed reserve thru left riser after the left riser hung up...

As a result most tandem masters were given the option as to whether they disconnected the RSL permanently.....

Nearly everyone did....

There is a BIG difference between a student having a RSL connected, and an experienced Tandem master having one.....

If gives the tandem master control over the reserve deployment....and is not a factor in any reserve procedure apart from a partial malfunction of the main....

A RSL does not guarantee safety......the TM has still got to do things correctly....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Is this system that bad or are the US-manufacturers too proud to use this system.

1. Never seen it. I would like to.

2. Why would you think US manufacturers are too "proud". We don't see ATOM's in the US simply because PDF doesn't want to sell them here. Now who's too proud?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Lessons:Some of the above is speculation, but it's a good reminder to perform your three ring maintenance regularly.

Lessons:Perhaps a defective riser?

It is unknown at this time what pulled the RSL, it may have been improperly routed and was pulled on line stretch, or it may have been caught by a toggle. It is also unknown if this type of malfunction is particular to this type of rig or is an industry-wide concern.

You can't blame the RSL for poor gear maintinence.

Quote

Lessons:There is some reason to believe that pausing briefly after cutting away from a seriously spinning malfunction can aid in reserve deployment. However, pausing also eats up valuable altitude, which is also an increased risk. An RSL removes your choice in this matter, but does insure a rapid deployment after a low cutaway. Note that this forum doesn't post the incidents where someone cutaway low, and their RSL saves them.

I think this sucessfully defends the RSL. Cutting away from a malfunction where you are spinning on your back with an RSL does not produce line twists. Struggling to get "belly to earth" does, while simply taking the reserve deployment naturaly into the relative wind doesn't.

Lessons:RSL's are a mixed blessing. For novice ANY jumpers, they provide insurance against failure to pull the reserve after a cutaway, a relatively frequent occurrence in the pre-CYPRES past.


"Stable" doesn't always mean "belly to earth."


None of these are directly attributed to RSL's and the fatality reports have never shown the benefit of RSL's simply because there wasn't one (fatality).

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Ron 7]

Quote

You can't blame the RSL for poor gear maintinence.

You said show mw and I did.

Quote

I think this sucessfully defends the RSL. Cutting away from a malfunction where you are spinning on your back with an RSL does not produce line twists. Struggling to get "belly to earth" does, while simply taking the reserve deployment naturaly into the relative wind doesn't.

without the RSL it would not have happened.

You asked, I showed you.

You don't have to accept it, but they did contribute or even cause these deaths.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Cutting away from a malfunction where you are spinning on your back with an RSL does not produce line twists.

Quote

cutaway at perhaps 1800'. His reserve (an Airforce 120) opened (via RSL, though reserve handle was also pulled roughly simultaneously) slider-up with line twists, and he impacted in a spin still trying to kick out of the twists.

If this jumper did not have an RSL and stopped spinning before deploying his reserve, he wouldn't have died.

What causes line twists?

The more stable the jumper is, the better the canopy, main or reserve, deploys. I guarantee I can cause a reserve to malfunction from poor body position on deployment. Reserves are incredibly reliable and it might take me a few jumps to get it to mal, but I could do it. Unfortunately that I could only do that trick once.

RSL's are not perfect and have caused fatalities and reserve line twists. They have saved more jumpers than they have killed, but most of those jumpers would have either been saved by better SA, better training, or an AAD. The ones that were killed by an RSL had no chance, nothing they could have done better.

Quote

You can't blame the RSL for poor gear maintinence.

If something snagged the RSL and killed that SEAL, then it wasn't bad maint. The RSL is a passive device. It doesn't know if you are in an entanglement, at high altitude, if the main is still attached, or if you are wearing a camera. It will fire the reserve anyway and that could, and has, kill someone.

Derek

[egons 0]

Skyhook RSL with intergrated Collins Lanyard - try is sometime!
If you happen to be at an event that I am present and I have teh Skyhook Cutaway System with me I urge you to give it a spin - you may just be impressed.
As for disconnecting the RSL shackle - at a 1000ft if high winds present. I disconnect mine each and every jump just before I land - having a checked routine will save you.

Simply jumping out of a plane without the RSL connected on a RWS system is against manufacturer recommendations and is purely irresponsible.

I see to many debates on this RSL topic and noone is ever going to win this debate - we can only learn from incidents and when you mention the broken riser incident, one thing comes to mind... Collins Lanyard.

Anyway my 02 cents worth - I have personally had 10 tandem reserve rides: All of them with a RSL. I do not remember once when I cut-away that I did not want a reserve right now!

Have a good one...

"Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!"

[Liemberg 0]

Quote

I do not remember once when I cut-away that I did not want a reserve right now!

Me too, me too - that's why I always pull the reserve right after cutting away the malfunction.
The issue here, however, is if an RSL can CAUSE a problem that otherwise would not occur.
When the RSL side riser (or even the loop) breaks on an otherwise uneventfull opening, it can.
There have been instances where just THAT happened. It shouldn't - but it did...
I wouldn't bet the farm that this can only happen with certain brands and is downright impossible with other brands (although Strong has built up 'a reputation' for sure...)

This is "Murphy's law" (or the trade off - if you will) for RSL's.

BTW: I voted to keep it connected on tandems...*)
BTW2: None of my personal rigs has an RSL.
BTW3: Years and years ago I was looking up to my five cell "Strato Star" and saw the right side riser right up there with the slider. Everybody else was under a parachute and I kept falling down.
Guess what I did?

*) edited to clarify: When for some obscure reason my left arm is incapacitated after/during the cutaway, without an RSL and with a student in front I'm running out of options...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[obelixtim 100]

Thats why you have an AAD.....why do you need a RSL if you have an AAD as well......

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

I see to many debates on this RSL topic and noone is ever going to win this debate - we can only learn from incidents and when you mention the broken riser incident, one thing comes to mind... Collins Lanyard.

What is your opinion of tandem rigs w/o the collin's lanyard and RSL's?

Derek