georger 197
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Robert99 37
QuoteI've read enough of your posts to know that you think the hijacker may have jumped close to Tena Bar. But you have to disprove the official reports on the flight path to make that work...so your job is cut out for you to do this, otherwise my theory works as well as yours. And it's tricky explaining why three bundles were discovered together without anything else.
First Law of the Tena Bar Money: *Finding of money will create more questions than it actually answers*
If you have read some of my previous posts, did you happen to notice any posts about the problems with the times and positions on the "official report" of the flight path? If you would look at the FBI map of the flight path you would see that there is a problem with an airliner, flying at a constant speed of about 3 nautical miles per minute, covering 3 nautical miles in one minute and then 6 nautical miles the next minute, then etc., etc..
That is not the way things work, and the above doesn't require any knowledge of rocket science to see the errors. So how does your "theory" explain the above problems?
You don't need to "explain" why three bundles were together with their rubber banks in relatively good shape. That is a simple fact and must be accepted as such. And the fact is that the condition of the money indicates that it didn't travel any lengthy distance in the river or had been exposed to water for a lengthy period of time. Maybe you have a theory as to how the money got so far above the normal river water line?
Since the money that was found was under a few inches of sand, perhaps digging up more sand in the right places would have revealed more money.
Also, the Flushing Channel (which is located south of Caterpillar Island) between the Columbia River and Vancouver Lake was completed in the very late 1970s and has some small gates to feed water into Vancouver Lake when the River is at a rather high level. The main downstream exit from Vancouver Lake is about 15 miles or so downstream from the Lake where Lake River joins the Columbia. There is one very small exit located about 20 feet or so from the driveway into the diary farm. Otherwise, just remember that the NW Lower River Road is built on top of a levee and I assume you know the purpose of a levee.
Actually, finding the money answers MORE questions than it asks. All you have to do is stick to facts and not try to fit things into a preconcieved theory.
Robert99
georger 197
Actually, finding the money answers MORE questions than it asks. All you have to do is stick to facts and not try to fit things into a preconcieved theory.
Robert99
This is now almost three years old! Blevins knew as
much then, as he does now. This is not going to
improve. Blevins is not part of the solution, but part of
the problem and that is probably why he is here at
Dropzone, to begin with. Sooner or later he will have
to move to a new village where is not known and has
fresh listeners... Gayla is probably advising Robert of
that, right now! No Sale! She is probably telling
Blevins: "You are too good for Dropzone" _
When is anyone ever going to listen to me.
The last wk of Sept 1979 Duane took me to 3 sites on the river and one of them was TENA's bar.
Not one sole has ever addressed a small shed under the trees past the fence. Perhaps I IMAGINED ALL of THIS but I know me and I know I did NOT imagine what DUANE did. He instructed me to stay in the car, but I got out under the trees to stretch for just a moment.
The way the crew approached Tena's bar threw me off as it was the OPPOSITE way Duane approached it. It was after I left Tena's Bar and we were headed back to Vancouver that I commented to Mr. H about the building and the road there seeming to be familiar, but I have NEVER BEEN heard and IF anyone heard me they IGNORED me. After WHAT I now know to be Tena's bar we made ONE last stop at the Red Lion and that is where DUANE threw the paper bag in the water. Because of the places he took me I believe he put money in 4 different place.
I have told this before, but I will NEVER be heard. WHY the F do you guys think he did NOT want me to read the newspaper in Feb when it came out the money had been found. He knew HE had made that ONE statement about Cooper while we where in the LaCames area. Duane figured I would figure it OUT.
THEN he makes sure before he leaves the area NOT to let me see the special on TV. He did something he had only done that ONE time in our marriage - HE made arrangements for US to go out WITH ANOTHER couple and I apologized to the woman who I had NEVER MET that I was sorry I was poor company.
I was not used to going OUT in the middle of the WEEK and there was a special on TV I wanted to see.
DUANE could NOT let me see that.
He knew I put 2 and 2 together.
WHY do you guys think he did NOT let me know his address or location when he left until it was time for my daughters graduation. Even then I did not have an address for him.
The media was eating it up just like he expected them to and did NOT suspect Cooper was still alive. Problem was that he probably spent some of the money in late 1979 right there in the Ft. Collins area - and he did NOT know until the money was found that they had the serial numbers.
He did NOT let me read that newspaper and he took it with him. He made sure I was busy and not exposed until he was safely away from the area.
He did take me over to Omaha before he left and he went into a bank. He probably got a safe deposit box and paid it forward for 10 yrs with his John Collins ID.
In 1990 his Collins ID had expired and he had to go to great extents to acquire one which he did - A real drivers licens with JOHN C. Collins and then he flew out of Tallahassee while he and Jim were on a suppposed 4 day market there.
Jiw was left with the set up from Thursday until Sat. During this time there was a plane ticket (one way purchased on my credit card to Omaha). U just remembered it started with an O.
CARR refused to check this out and the prior agent refused to check this out. NO one CARES but me who COOPER really was - you guys only want the fantasy.
SEE what I mean - there was NOTHING complicated about this case other than the investigators making it complicated. IF they had checked out the Deposit box in 1996 when I contacted them, they would have found this. Carr said it took a government order of some kind to check this and he wasn't going to do it.
ALL these YRS I handed this to the FBI on a silver plate, but NO one heard me.
I was never sure if it was Omaha, NB or something Oklahoma. All I remember is the O. BUT looking at the map and without going back to the place and my memory of that day for him to conduct some business in a state he was NOT licensed in - and he was only there just a few minutes. PUT your heads on and think about this. JO is the ONLY PERSON to put the money on TENA's bar and IF the FBI had listened to me in 1996 - they would have found the safe deposit box under the name of JOHN COLLINS had been closed in the early part of 1990.
HOW in the hell does anyone explain Duane's actions early in 1980.THERE is only one answer - Duane WEBER was JOHN COLLINS and he was DAN COOPER. John COLLINS maintained a safe deposit box which was opened in 1980 and closed in 1990. Then when he returns to Pensacola he open a safe deposit box under his name I had NO knowledge of until after he died.
THE only damn thing in that box was that magazine with the jumper and a barrel between his legs. The magazine he put in the box was NOT the same magazine I had seen in his office at the shop. The one in the safe deposit box was dated 1994 - but, it was a message I did NOT understand.
I did NOT know if anyone else had access to that box and maybe DUANE had taken the stuff out and put it in the VAN and why he was so DAMN worried about the VAN while he was in the HOSP. My car was acting funny and I drove the VAN.
He kept wanting to go for a ride - but he never made it. DAMN someon LISTEN! LISTEN! LISTEN!
The last wk of Sept 1979 Duane took me to 3 sites on the river and one of them was TENA's bar.
Not one sole has ever addressed a small shed under the trees past the fence. Perhaps I IMAGINED ALL of THIS but I know me and I know I did NOT imagine what DUANE did. He instructed me to stay in the car, but I got out under the trees to stretch for just a moment.
The way the crew approached Tena's bar threw me off as it was the OPPOSITE way Duane approached it. It was after I left Tena's Bar and we were headed back to Vancouver that I commented to Mr. H about the building and the road there seeming to be familiar, but I have NEVER BEEN heard and IF anyone heard me they IGNORED me. After WHAT I now know to be Tena's bar we made ONE last stop at the Red Lion and that is where DUANE threw the paper bag in the water. Because of the places he took me I believe he put money in 4 different place.
I have told this before, but I will NEVER be heard. WHY the F do you guys think he did NOT want me to read the newspaper in Feb when it came out the money had been found. He knew HE had made that ONE statement about Cooper while we where in the LaCames area. Duane figured I would figure it OUT.
THEN he makes sure before he leaves the area NOT to let me see the special on TV. He did something he had only done that ONE time in our marriage - HE made arrangements for US to go out WITH ANOTHER couple and I apologized to the woman who I had NEVER MET that I was sorry I was poor company.
I was not used to going OUT in the middle of the WEEK and there was a special on TV I wanted to see.
DUANE could NOT let me see that.
He knew I put 2 and 2 together.
WHY do you guys think he did NOT let me know his address or location when he left until it was time for my daughters graduation. Even then I did not have an address for him.
The media was eating it up just like he expected them to and did NOT suspect Cooper was still alive. Problem was that he probably spent some of the money in late 1979 right there in the Ft. Collins area - and he did NOT know until the money was found that they had the serial numbers.
He did NOT let me read that newspaper and he took it with him. He made sure I was busy and not exposed until he was safely away from the area.
He did take me over to Omaha before he left and he went into a bank. He probably got a safe deposit box and paid it forward for 10 yrs with his John Collins ID.
In 1990 his Collins ID had expired and he had to go to great extents to acquire one which he did - A real drivers licens with JOHN C. Collins and then he flew out of Tallahassee while he and Jim were on a suppposed 4 day market there.
Jiw was left with the set up from Thursday until Sat. During this time there was a plane ticket (one way purchased on my credit card to Omaha). U just remembered it started with an O.
CARR refused to check this out and the prior agent refused to check this out. NO one CARES but me who COOPER really was - you guys only want the fantasy.
SEE what I mean - there was NOTHING complicated about this case other than the investigators making it complicated. IF they had checked out the Deposit box in 1996 when I contacted them, they would have found this. Carr said it took a government order of some kind to check this and he wasn't going to do it.
ALL these YRS I handed this to the FBI on a silver plate, but NO one heard me.
I was never sure if it was Omaha, NB or something Oklahoma. All I remember is the O. BUT looking at the map and without going back to the place and my memory of that day for him to conduct some business in a state he was NOT licensed in - and he was only there just a few minutes. PUT your heads on and think about this. JO is the ONLY PERSON to put the money on TENA's bar and IF the FBI had listened to me in 1996 - they would have found the safe deposit box under the name of JOHN COLLINS had been closed in the early part of 1990.
HOW in the hell does anyone explain Duane's actions early in 1980.THERE is only one answer - Duane WEBER was JOHN COLLINS and he was DAN COOPER. John COLLINS maintained a safe deposit box which was opened in 1980 and closed in 1990. Then when he returns to Pensacola he open a safe deposit box under his name I had NO knowledge of until after he died.
THE only damn thing in that box was that magazine with the jumper and a barrel between his legs. The magazine he put in the box was NOT the same magazine I had seen in his office at the shop. The one in the safe deposit box was dated 1994 - but, it was a message I did NOT understand.
I did NOT know if anyone else had access to that box and maybe DUANE had taken the stuff out and put it in the VAN and why he was so DAMN worried about the VAN while he was in the HOSP. My car was acting funny and I drove the VAN.
He kept wanting to go for a ride - but he never made it. DAMN someon LISTEN! LISTEN! LISTEN!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
georger 197
QuoteWhen is anyone ever going to listen to me.
He kept wanting to go for a ride - but he never made it. DAMN someon LISTEN! LISTEN! LISTEN!
377 is listening listening listening!
He should respond shortly shortly shortly!
It just takes time to get everyone off the boat boat boat!
georger 197
I have figured out one thing. You are part of the problem around here lately, not me.
Here's advice for ya: Anytime you can break away from being a work-for-wages sheeple and actually make it on your own...DO it.
You don't explore the Cooper case much. Mostly you try to discredit without using points from the case. This is in opposition to what I did with Marla, and occasionally Galen Cook. Big difference. You go to personalities. You think you know everything about someone based on their present employment. LOL.
You also think everyone besides yourself is stupid. I've noticed that...
Here's advice for ya: Anytime you can break away from being a work-for-wages sheeple and actually make it on your own...DO it.
You don't explore the Cooper case much. Mostly you try to discredit without using points from the case. This is in opposition to what I did with Marla, and occasionally Galen Cook. Big difference. You go to personalities. You think you know everything about someone based on their present employment. LOL.
You also think everyone besides yourself is stupid. I've noticed that...
Good God! All of this over a technical question: what does Tom Kaye mean when he says: "center of the dredging sand". Its a basic question which goes to the heart of what Kaye is saying, your analysis of Kaye, etc etc.
And now we have (yours above): You are part of the
problem around here lately, not me. Here's advice for
ya: Anytime you can break away from being a
work-for-wages sheeple and actually make it on your
own...DO it. You don't explore the Cooper case
much. Mostly you try to discredit without using points
from the. You go to personalities. You think you
know everything ....
work-for-wages sheeple ?
Mr. Blevins. Can you answer the Tom Kaye question at hand? Yes or No?
What is all your garbage about? Having another bad
day?
I'll ask Jo Weber. Maybe she has more technical knowledge and expertise than you do!
work-for-wages sheeple ?
georger 197
QuoteQuoteFurther on:
***'The measurement between the center of the dredging sand and the money find is approximately 150 yards.
Blevins quotes Tom: ""center of the dredging sand"
Do you know for a fact what "center of the dredging sand" Kaye is referring to?
georger 197
QuoteI'm not saying this isn't true,
Blevins quotes Tom saying: "center of the dredging sand"
Do you know for a fact what "center" Tom is referring to?
georger 197
...Ricardo López-Ruiz: Economic Models with Chaotic Money Exchange. ICCS (1) 2009: 43-52
$200K for nothing is a pretty chaotic money exhange.
377
$200K for nothing is a pretty chaotic money exhange.
377
Blevins quote Tom saying: "center of the dredging
sand"
Do you know for a fact what "center" Tom is referring
to?
Because, without knowing what "center" Tom is
referring to, everything else Tom says is
meaningless.
377 20
Robert,
That trifurcated image on Mars looks like a C9 canopy wrapped in chain folded suspension lines, smoke jumper style.
Sheesh, no wonder there's been a coverup by the FBI, CIA and now even JPL-NASA. The nuke waste dump at Hanford spins off space-time tornados. Now the Tena Bar money starts making sense.
Rich and single on Mars. What a bummer.
377
That trifurcated image on Mars looks like a C9 canopy wrapped in chain folded suspension lines, smoke jumper style.
Sheesh, no wonder there's been a coverup by the FBI, CIA and now even JPL-NASA. The nuke waste dump at Hanford spins off space-time tornados. Now the Tena Bar money starts making sense.
Rich and single on Mars. What a bummer.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 197
QuoteRobert,
That trifurcated image on Mars looks like a C9 canopy wrapped in chain folded suspension lines, smoke jumper style.
Sheesh, no wonder there's been a coverup by the FBI, CIA and now even JPL-NASA. The nuke waste dump at Hanford spins off space-time tornados. Now the Tena Bar money starts making sense.
Rich and single on Mars. What a bummer.
377
Do you know for a fact what "center" Tom is referring
to?
is this still a Cooper thread?
Hi Everyone,
I have posted my latest chapter on DB Cooper, which is an in-depth look at the resurgence, examining the impact of the Internet, open-sourced sleuthing, and the legacy of Larry Carr. I also profile Jo in depth, which has earned me a 4,000 word rebuttal from her, and you can only imagine the angry phone message! (Ah, our Jo,,,smile.)
` The clicky thingy is dingy...
[url]http://themountainnewswa.net/2013/02/15/the-hunt-for-db-cooper-an-in-depth-look-at-the-resurgence-to-solve-americas-most-mysterious-skyjacking/#more-6450[url/]
I have posted my latest chapter on DB Cooper, which is an in-depth look at the resurgence, examining the impact of the Internet, open-sourced sleuthing, and the legacy of Larry Carr. I also profile Jo in depth, which has earned me a 4,000 word rebuttal from her, and you can only imagine the angry phone message! (Ah, our Jo,,,smile.)
` The clicky thingy is dingy...
[url]http://themountainnewswa.net/2013/02/15/the-hunt-for-db-cooper-an-in-depth-look-at-the-resurgence-to-solve-americas-most-mysterious-skyjacking/#more-6450[url/]
Here's an excerpt on Larry. I thought it deserved to be here. As for the piece on Jo, I'll keep the juicy gossip stuff closer to home.
********************
The Legacy of Larry Carr
Although the best DNA evidence that seems to be available at this time is from a very suspect sample, it does advance the Hunt for DB Cooper.
Responding to this technological crack in the case, a young special agent from Minnesota named Larry Carr, who was trained as a bank fraud investigator, asked to be assigned to Seattle as the Norjak case agent.
Surprisingly, not many FBI agents wanted the job as it entails investigating lots of long shots under the harsh glare of intense public attention, but with the new tools of the resurgence Carr wanted to take a shot at solving the Cooper case.
Plus, his rugged good-looks and obvious charisma allowed him to thrive in front of the cameras. As a result, he was rewarded with a transfer to the Seattle office in 2007. There, he reinvigorated the Cooper investigation with his dedication to a new vision for the FBI – working with the public in an active partnership.
Larry launched the new relationship with a superb gesture: he shared heretofore unreleased information, specifically the presence of the clip-on tie, and he was a regular commentator on the DZ.
Carr didn’t form the DropZone site, but he definitely got it up to highway speed. His posts as “Ckret” gave the chat room an unprecedented air of authority, and it attracted the cream of the cop of Cooper sleuths in Cyber World.
In fact, I have immense respect for Larry despite our bumpy relationship, reflected by my response one night to a Carr posting on the DZ. I forget exactly what Larry said, but I remember that the post was notated “4 am” in his sign-on, and I said to myself. “Larry can’t sleep either, tonight. DB Cooper is keeping us both up.”
From September 2007 until December 2009, Larry posted often and in depth. Highlights of his contributions include the abovementioned revelation that the cigarette buts are missing. In addition, he clarified details of the parachutes delivered to Cooper, identifying the one Cooper didn’t use as a Steinthal 26’ canopy, model 60-9707, apparently packed inside a Pioneer container.
But he added more confusion as he accepted Earl Cossey’s pronouncement that DB Cooper used a 28” canopy stuffed into a modified NB 6 container. From this declaration comes other questionable statements regarding DB Cooper’s parachuting skills, siding with parachute rigger that Cooper picked an inferior chute when he rejected the Pioneer/Steinthal.
Carr confirmed that parachute rigger Earl Cossey had significantly modified the chute Cooper is believed to have used - a military emergency parachute known as an NB 6 - thus making it difficult to deploy. This begs the question of why a master rigger would engineer a parachute designed to be a pilot’s safety rig and make it more difficult to use. Oddly, Cossey enclosed instruction for Cooper, which Carr confirms, making the whole scenario bizarre.
Compounding this, Cossey now refutes the notion that an NB 6 was used, claiming that it was an NB 8. These issues are replete with other controversies and will be discussed in greater detail in the parachute chapter.
Nevertheless, Larry also told us pieces of information that reveal how extensive the Bureau’s investigation actually was, saying that the starboard seats of Row 18 were taken out of the airplane and sent to DC for further analysis.
Also, some intriguing tidbits were shared, such as the fact that Tina was interviewed by the FBI both in Reno and Philadelphia, which is where she lived as a kid before moving to Minneapolis.
In addition, Larry told us that 60 sets of fingerprints were recovered from Flight 305, but their identities are far from complete. However, SAC Russ Calame writes in his book that the total number of fingerprints retrieved is much less and are highly suspect.
Carr also showed us some of the complexities of Cooper, revealing that the skyjacker thought the aft stairs were deployed via a mechanism in the cockpit, which suggests that he was not familiar with civilian usage of the 727.
Larry also vacillated on some of his perspectives on the case, especially concerning whether Cooper jumped over the Washougal Basin and lost some of his money there. Carr frequently supported that notion, following with the idea that the $5,800 then floated down the Washougal River to the Columbia, taking eight years to reach Tina’s Bar.
But he defended the Victor-23 flight path over Ariel, Washington, as well.
Further, he also posited that Cooper may have jumped over Orchard, Washington, near Battleground.
Larry also provided specific details, such as wind speeds and directions throughout the air column of Cooper’s drop zone, such as winds at 7,000 feet at 20 knots at 225 degrees, and 15 knots from 235 degrees at ground level.
Larry stated often that he did not think DB Cooper survived the jump In his many video presentations Larry generally declared that Cooper was an inexperienced skydiver who knew enough to put himself into serious danger.
Specifically, Carr speculated that Cooper tumbled and panicked immediately after leaving the aircraft due to the cold and his lack of proper clothing, and most likely cratered into the ground as a no-pull, or hopelessly tangled in his chute lines.
Perhaps Larry’s most famous description of the above scenario was presented in the National Geographic documentary titeld: The Skyjacker Who Got Away, which aired in the summer of 2009.
In the film, Larry and Tom Kaye shared the perspective that Cooper and all of his stuff, including the money crashed into the Lewis River drainage – most likely the river itself – and then washed down to the Columbia. There, the Cooper bundle became ensnared on a propeller shaft of a freighter going up river, which eventually separated DB’s remains from the $5,800 and deposited the latter six miles upstream at Tina’s Bar.
However, Larry did acknowledge that Cooper had some parachuting prowess, generally accepting the notion that Cooper did have some basic familiarity with parachutes and 727s, and had enough skills to at least think he could make the jump successfully.
Carr speculated that Cooper developed his limited but specific knowledge in a unique setting – aboard the cargo planes of South East Asia. Carr expressed this belief on the FBI’s Cooper web page, saying that Cooper was most probably an Air Force veteran, perhaps a “kicker” on air drops, such as were performed by the CIA’s Air America crews over Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and Vietnam.
As a kicker, Cooper would have pushed cargo loads out the rear doors of a C-47 during mid-air drops while wearing an emergency parachute, most likely an NB 8 or something similar. Hence, Larry said, when Cooper was preparing to depart Flight 305 it’s reasonable to assume that he picked a parachute akin to one he knew.
In addition, Carr popularized a unique aspect of the modern Cooper case – the Dan Cooper comic books.
At this point it's important to remember that the skyjacker identified himself to the ticket manager in Portland as "Dan Cooper," not DB Cooper, which was an appellation given to him by a mistaken journalist named Clyde Jabin in the early hours of the case.
The Dan Cooper series was an action comic popular in the 1950s and 60s. They were written in French and published only in French-speaking Europe and Quebec, Canada. They are utterly unknown in the United States.
The comics describe the exploits of a Royal Canadian Air Force commando named Dan Cooper, who skydives into action to make the world safe for democracy. The existence of the comics were first discovered by an individual on the DZ named “Snowmman” and originally posted in 2009. Hence, Larry Carr gathered something very valuable for his investigation from civilian sources, too.
Carr speculated that since the comics are written in French and unknown in the United States, they might have been discovered by an American airman stationed in the French-speaking parts of Belgium, particularly Brussels, which is also where NATO is headquartered.
Thus, Carr speculated that his USAF cargo kicker spoke French, had quite possibly been stationed in the environs of Brussels, and at least got his non de guerre from the comics – or even derived the inspiration for the skyjacking.
In addition, Vietnam and Cambodia were once French colonies, and a French patois was widely spoken in SE Asia when the United States military arrived in the 1960s. This provides yet one more connection to French-speaking, comic book loving, adventure seeking American cargo kickers.
So, did DB Cooper have any knowledge of the comic book action hero? Was his signatore a talisman? An inside joke?
Why not? Or, rather, pourquoi, pas?
Sadly, after his ignoble presentation of the Propeller Theory on the National Geographic documentary - and endless ribbing on the DZ - Larry was relieved of his position as Cooper case agent by early 2010 and reportedly promoted and shipped to FBI headquarters in DC.
When he left Seattle, Larry also stopped posting on the DZ, although I believe he still follows the case. I have sent him a “personal message” on the DZ – a wonderful little feature of the web site that provides secured communications between individuals – and although Larry did respond to my “PM” he wouldn’t engage in a conversation. Further, a “SA Carr” has posted on the Mountain News-WA, my online news magainze, but again does not engage in any follow-up emails.
Nevertheless, one of Carr’s most lasting contributions to the DB Cooper case may be his Internet-based network of citizen sleuths.
Drawing from his contacts on the DZ in 2007, Carr formed a Citizens Research Group, an eclectic team of scientists and sleuths. They’ve re-examined the evidence and visited the topography of the case, applying modern technology in innovative ways - such as using electron spectroscopy to assay mineral and biological deposits on the recovered money.
The leader of the Citizens Sleuths, as they are currently known, is Tom Kaye, who was Larry’s side-kick on the Propeller Theory. However Kaye has publicly distanced himself from that infamous hypothesis.
However, the contributions of the Citizen Sleuths are extensive and will be more full examined in the following chapter.
********************
The Legacy of Larry Carr
Although the best DNA evidence that seems to be available at this time is from a very suspect sample, it does advance the Hunt for DB Cooper.
Responding to this technological crack in the case, a young special agent from Minnesota named Larry Carr, who was trained as a bank fraud investigator, asked to be assigned to Seattle as the Norjak case agent.
Surprisingly, not many FBI agents wanted the job as it entails investigating lots of long shots under the harsh glare of intense public attention, but with the new tools of the resurgence Carr wanted to take a shot at solving the Cooper case.
Plus, his rugged good-looks and obvious charisma allowed him to thrive in front of the cameras. As a result, he was rewarded with a transfer to the Seattle office in 2007. There, he reinvigorated the Cooper investigation with his dedication to a new vision for the FBI – working with the public in an active partnership.
Larry launched the new relationship with a superb gesture: he shared heretofore unreleased information, specifically the presence of the clip-on tie, and he was a regular commentator on the DZ.
Carr didn’t form the DropZone site, but he definitely got it up to highway speed. His posts as “Ckret” gave the chat room an unprecedented air of authority, and it attracted the cream of the cop of Cooper sleuths in Cyber World.
In fact, I have immense respect for Larry despite our bumpy relationship, reflected by my response one night to a Carr posting on the DZ. I forget exactly what Larry said, but I remember that the post was notated “4 am” in his sign-on, and I said to myself. “Larry can’t sleep either, tonight. DB Cooper is keeping us both up.”
From September 2007 until December 2009, Larry posted often and in depth. Highlights of his contributions include the abovementioned revelation that the cigarette buts are missing. In addition, he clarified details of the parachutes delivered to Cooper, identifying the one Cooper didn’t use as a Steinthal 26’ canopy, model 60-9707, apparently packed inside a Pioneer container.
But he added more confusion as he accepted Earl Cossey’s pronouncement that DB Cooper used a 28” canopy stuffed into a modified NB 6 container. From this declaration comes other questionable statements regarding DB Cooper’s parachuting skills, siding with parachute rigger that Cooper picked an inferior chute when he rejected the Pioneer/Steinthal.
Carr confirmed that parachute rigger Earl Cossey had significantly modified the chute Cooper is believed to have used - a military emergency parachute known as an NB 6 - thus making it difficult to deploy. This begs the question of why a master rigger would engineer a parachute designed to be a pilot’s safety rig and make it more difficult to use. Oddly, Cossey enclosed instruction for Cooper, which Carr confirms, making the whole scenario bizarre.
Compounding this, Cossey now refutes the notion that an NB 6 was used, claiming that it was an NB 8. These issues are replete with other controversies and will be discussed in greater detail in the parachute chapter.
Nevertheless, Larry also told us pieces of information that reveal how extensive the Bureau’s investigation actually was, saying that the starboard seats of Row 18 were taken out of the airplane and sent to DC for further analysis.
Also, some intriguing tidbits were shared, such as the fact that Tina was interviewed by the FBI both in Reno and Philadelphia, which is where she lived as a kid before moving to Minneapolis.
In addition, Larry told us that 60 sets of fingerprints were recovered from Flight 305, but their identities are far from complete. However, SAC Russ Calame writes in his book that the total number of fingerprints retrieved is much less and are highly suspect.
Carr also showed us some of the complexities of Cooper, revealing that the skyjacker thought the aft stairs were deployed via a mechanism in the cockpit, which suggests that he was not familiar with civilian usage of the 727.
Larry also vacillated on some of his perspectives on the case, especially concerning whether Cooper jumped over the Washougal Basin and lost some of his money there. Carr frequently supported that notion, following with the idea that the $5,800 then floated down the Washougal River to the Columbia, taking eight years to reach Tina’s Bar.
But he defended the Victor-23 flight path over Ariel, Washington, as well.
Further, he also posited that Cooper may have jumped over Orchard, Washington, near Battleground.
Larry also provided specific details, such as wind speeds and directions throughout the air column of Cooper’s drop zone, such as winds at 7,000 feet at 20 knots at 225 degrees, and 15 knots from 235 degrees at ground level.
Larry stated often that he did not think DB Cooper survived the jump In his many video presentations Larry generally declared that Cooper was an inexperienced skydiver who knew enough to put himself into serious danger.
Specifically, Carr speculated that Cooper tumbled and panicked immediately after leaving the aircraft due to the cold and his lack of proper clothing, and most likely cratered into the ground as a no-pull, or hopelessly tangled in his chute lines.
Perhaps Larry’s most famous description of the above scenario was presented in the National Geographic documentary titeld: The Skyjacker Who Got Away, which aired in the summer of 2009.
In the film, Larry and Tom Kaye shared the perspective that Cooper and all of his stuff, including the money crashed into the Lewis River drainage – most likely the river itself – and then washed down to the Columbia. There, the Cooper bundle became ensnared on a propeller shaft of a freighter going up river, which eventually separated DB’s remains from the $5,800 and deposited the latter six miles upstream at Tina’s Bar.
However, Larry did acknowledge that Cooper had some parachuting prowess, generally accepting the notion that Cooper did have some basic familiarity with parachutes and 727s, and had enough skills to at least think he could make the jump successfully.
Carr speculated that Cooper developed his limited but specific knowledge in a unique setting – aboard the cargo planes of South East Asia. Carr expressed this belief on the FBI’s Cooper web page, saying that Cooper was most probably an Air Force veteran, perhaps a “kicker” on air drops, such as were performed by the CIA’s Air America crews over Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and Vietnam.
As a kicker, Cooper would have pushed cargo loads out the rear doors of a C-47 during mid-air drops while wearing an emergency parachute, most likely an NB 8 or something similar. Hence, Larry said, when Cooper was preparing to depart Flight 305 it’s reasonable to assume that he picked a parachute akin to one he knew.
In addition, Carr popularized a unique aspect of the modern Cooper case – the Dan Cooper comic books.
At this point it's important to remember that the skyjacker identified himself to the ticket manager in Portland as "Dan Cooper," not DB Cooper, which was an appellation given to him by a mistaken journalist named Clyde Jabin in the early hours of the case.
The Dan Cooper series was an action comic popular in the 1950s and 60s. They were written in French and published only in French-speaking Europe and Quebec, Canada. They are utterly unknown in the United States.
The comics describe the exploits of a Royal Canadian Air Force commando named Dan Cooper, who skydives into action to make the world safe for democracy. The existence of the comics were first discovered by an individual on the DZ named “Snowmman” and originally posted in 2009. Hence, Larry Carr gathered something very valuable for his investigation from civilian sources, too.
Carr speculated that since the comics are written in French and unknown in the United States, they might have been discovered by an American airman stationed in the French-speaking parts of Belgium, particularly Brussels, which is also where NATO is headquartered.
Thus, Carr speculated that his USAF cargo kicker spoke French, had quite possibly been stationed in the environs of Brussels, and at least got his non de guerre from the comics – or even derived the inspiration for the skyjacking.
In addition, Vietnam and Cambodia were once French colonies, and a French patois was widely spoken in SE Asia when the United States military arrived in the 1960s. This provides yet one more connection to French-speaking, comic book loving, adventure seeking American cargo kickers.
So, did DB Cooper have any knowledge of the comic book action hero? Was his signatore a talisman? An inside joke?
Why not? Or, rather, pourquoi, pas?
Sadly, after his ignoble presentation of the Propeller Theory on the National Geographic documentary - and endless ribbing on the DZ - Larry was relieved of his position as Cooper case agent by early 2010 and reportedly promoted and shipped to FBI headquarters in DC.
When he left Seattle, Larry also stopped posting on the DZ, although I believe he still follows the case. I have sent him a “personal message” on the DZ – a wonderful little feature of the web site that provides secured communications between individuals – and although Larry did respond to my “PM” he wouldn’t engage in a conversation. Further, a “SA Carr” has posted on the Mountain News-WA, my online news magainze, but again does not engage in any follow-up emails.
Nevertheless, one of Carr’s most lasting contributions to the DB Cooper case may be his Internet-based network of citizen sleuths.
Drawing from his contacts on the DZ in 2007, Carr formed a Citizens Research Group, an eclectic team of scientists and sleuths. They’ve re-examined the evidence and visited the topography of the case, applying modern technology in innovative ways - such as using electron spectroscopy to assay mineral and biological deposits on the recovered money.
The leader of the Citizens Sleuths, as they are currently known, is Tom Kaye, who was Larry’s side-kick on the Propeller Theory. However Kaye has publicly distanced himself from that infamous hypothesis.
However, the contributions of the Citizen Sleuths are extensive and will be more full examined in the following chapter.
Brilliant deduction !
Is your upstream downstream? Or your upstream
downstream? What do your up and down mean with
respect to the flow of stream by Tina Bar? Do you
know up from down? Left from right? Dont have a
stroke worrying about it. My advice is: just keep
writing books.
Blevins, you have compulsively been trying to master
these matters for almost three years. Maybe it's time
for you to give up and just accept there are some
things in life not worth knowing about, that you can't
do! Like sleuthing for DB Cooper and doing calculus!
You might look for employment at Carnival Cruise
Lines, since you are already a house cleaner and own
a house cleaning business with Gayla, by profession!
Hydraulics, forensics, and toilet bowl cleaning are not
the same thing, in case you haven't discovered. There
is no disgrace in that! The disgrace is in refusing to
know the difference.
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