DB Cooper

[georger 197]

Quote

Re: Robert M Blevins. I read this everyday and I can tell you that he is one of the few on here that does not appear to come from a trailer park.

I just spent the last 30 minutes on here reading "go fuck yourself" and other useless comments.

If everyone that posts on this thread would read DROPZONE.COM INCIDENT REPORTS you can see how skydivers who are educated and from trailer parks can have a discussion and share thoughts and facts.
I guess our discussions are dealing with real life situations that may save a life. So we don't play such childish games with words.
I have not ever read a Blevins post on here that was threatening or displaying fowl language. Good for him !
So since you can get away with it ONLY on this thread I would like to tell Georger and Green to GO F@#K YOURSELF. Nice huh !
CAN'T Wait to see the replies, Let's get down and dirty in the trailer park tonight. Break out all of those GED'S and let's do it ! Let;s all talk about everything but D B Cooper and call each other names all night!
My guess is the FBI has asked DZ.com to leave this thread open so they can pick through all of the fighting and maybe get a small detail here and there.
DZ.com would have shut this thread down long ago.

Have any of you ever heard of agreeing to disagree?

What drugs are you on! ?

John Peters "Johnny" Ringo (May 3, 1850 – July 13, 1882) was an outlaw Cowboy of the American Old West who was affiliated with Ike Clanton and Frank Stilwell in Cochise County, Arizona Territory during 1881-1882.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Ringo

So, say something about the DB Cooper case?

[Robert99 37]

Quote

Quote

Re: Robert M Blevins. I read this everyday and I can tell you that he is one of the few on here that does not appear to come from a trailer park.

I just spent the last 30 minutes on here reading "go fuck yourself" and other useless comments.

If everyone that posts on this thread would read DROPZONE.COM INCIDENT REPORTS you can see how skydivers who are educated and from trailer parks can have a discussion and share thoughts and facts.
I guess our discussions are dealing with real life situations that may save a life. So we don't play such childish games with words.
I have not ever read a Blevins post on here that was threatening or displaying fowl language. Good for him !
So since you can get away with it ONLY on this thread I would like to tell Georger and Green to GO F@#K YOURSELF. Nice huh !
CAN'T Wait to see the replies, Let's get down and dirty in the trailer park tonight. Break out all of those GED'S and let's do it ! Let;s all talk about everything but D B Cooper and call each other names all night!
My guess is the FBI has asked DZ.com to leave this thread open so they can pick through all of the fighting and maybe get a small detail here and there.
DZ.com would have shut this thread down long ago.

Have any of you ever heard of agreeing to disagree?

What drugs are you on! ?

John Peters "Johnny" Ringo (May 3, 1850 – July 13, 1882) was an outlaw Cowboy of the American Old West who was affiliated with Ike Clanton and Frank Stilwell in Cochise County, Arizona Territory during 1881-1882.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Ringo

Johnny Ringo an outlaw? No way! But of course everyone in Tombstone in the 1880s could be called an outlaw.

Johnny Ringo, the blogger, has never answered my question if he runs the bar with his name in Tombstone. That bar is about 21 miles from my driveway. But it is only 20 miles from here to the O.K. Corral where a famous gunfight took place in the 1880s which has since become a Hollywood fairey tale.

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Re: Robert M Blevins. I read this everyday and I can tell you that he is one of the few on here that does not appear to come from a trailer park.

I just spent the last 30 minutes on here reading "go fuck yourself" and other useless comments.

If everyone that posts on this thread would read DROPZONE.COM INCIDENT REPORTS you can see how skydivers who are educated and from trailer parks can have a discussion and share thoughts and facts.
I guess our discussions are dealing with real life situations that may save a life. So we don't play such childish games with words.
I have not ever read a Blevins post on here that was threatening or displaying fowl language. Good for him !
So since you can get away with it ONLY on this thread I would like to tell Georger and Green to GO F@#K YOURSELF. Nice huh !
CAN'T Wait to see the replies, Let's get down and dirty in the trailer park tonight. Break out all of those GED'S and let's do it ! Let;s all talk about everything but D B Cooper and call each other names all night!
My guess is the FBI has asked DZ.com to leave this thread open so they can pick through all of the fighting and maybe get a small detail here and there.
DZ.com would have shut this thread down long ago.

Have any of you ever heard of agreeing to disagree?

What drugs are you on! ?

John Peters "Johnny" Ringo (May 3, 1850 – July 13, 1882) was an outlaw Cowboy of the American Old West who was affiliated with Ike Clanton and Frank Stilwell in Cochise County, Arizona Territory during 1881-1882.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Ringo

Johnny Ringo an outlaw? No way! But of course everyone in Tombstone in the 1880s could be called an outlaw.

Johnny Ringo, the blogger, has never answered my question if he runs the bar with his name in Tombstone. That bar is about 21 miles from my driveway. But it is only 20 miles from here to the O.K. Corral where a famous gunfight took place in the 1880s which has since become a Hollywood fairey tale.

Never been there. Wasnt Ringo part of the Clanton
gang that the Erps took down, or is that another 4
Monsters Abreast tale? People south of here argue
over whether Jessie James even existed ?

[johnnyringo 0]

I am not a bar owner. Johnny Ringo is a skydiver nickname. My name is Charles Paul Hornsby Jr.

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Re: Robert M Blevins. I read this everyday and I can tell you that he is one of the few on here that does not appear to come from a trailer park.

I just spent the last 30 minutes on here reading "go fuck yourself" and other useless comments.

If everyone that posts on this thread would read DROPZONE.COM INCIDENT REPORTS you can see how skydivers who are educated and from trailer parks can have a discussion and share thoughts and facts.
I guess our discussions are dealing with real life situations that may save a life. So we don't play such childish games with words.
I have not ever read a Blevins post on here that was threatening or displaying fowl language. Good for him !
So since you can get away with it ONLY on this thread I would like to tell Georger and Green to GO F@#K YOURSELF. Nice huh !
CAN'T Wait to see the replies, Let's get down and dirty in the trailer park tonight. Break out all of those GED'S and let's do it ! Let;s all talk about everything but D B Cooper and call each other names all night!
My guess is the FBI has asked DZ.com to leave this thread open so they can pick through all of the fighting and maybe get a small detail here and there.
DZ.com would have shut this thread down long ago.

Have any of you ever heard of agreeing to disagree?

What drugs are you on! ?

John Peters "Johnny" Ringo (May 3, 1850 – July 13, 1882) was an outlaw Cowboy of the American Old West who was affiliated with Ike Clanton and Frank Stilwell in Cochise County, Arizona Territory during 1881-1882.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Ringo

Johnny Ringo an outlaw? No way! But of course everyone in Tombstone in the 1880s could be called an outlaw.

Johnny Ringo, the blogger, has never answered my question if he runs the bar with his name in Tombstone. That bar is about 21 miles from my driveway. But it is only 20 miles from here to the O.K. Corral where a famous gunfight took place in the 1880s which has since become a Hollywood fairey tale.

Never been there. Wasnt Ringo part of the Clanton
gang that the Erps took down, or is that another 4
Monsters Abreast tale? People south of here argue
over whether Jessie James even existed ?

[Robert99 37]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Re: Robert M Blevins. I read this everyday and I can tell you that he is one of the few on here that does not appear to come from a trailer park.

I just spent the last 30 minutes on here reading "go fuck yourself" and other useless comments.

If everyone that posts on this thread would read DROPZONE.COM INCIDENT REPORTS you can see how skydivers who are educated and from trailer parks can have a discussion and share thoughts and facts.
I guess our discussions are dealing with real life situations that may save a life. So we don't play such childish games with words.
I have not ever read a Blevins post on here that was threatening or displaying fowl language. Good for him !
So since you can get away with it ONLY on this thread I would like to tell Georger and Green to GO F@#K YOURSELF. Nice huh !
CAN'T Wait to see the replies, Let's get down and dirty in the trailer park tonight. Break out all of those GED'S and let's do it ! Let;s all talk about everything but D B Cooper and call each other names all night!
My guess is the FBI has asked DZ.com to leave this thread open so they can pick through all of the fighting and maybe get a small detail here and there.
DZ.com would have shut this thread down long ago.

Have any of you ever heard of agreeing to disagree?

What drugs are you on! ?

John Peters "Johnny" Ringo (May 3, 1850 – July 13, 1882) was an outlaw Cowboy of the American Old West who was affiliated with Ike Clanton and Frank Stilwell in Cochise County, Arizona Territory during 1881-1882.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Ringo

Johnny Ringo an outlaw? No way! But of course everyone in Tombstone in the 1880s could be called an outlaw.

Johnny Ringo, the blogger, has never answered my question if he runs the bar with his name in Tombstone. That bar is about 21 miles from my driveway. But it is only 20 miles from here to the O.K. Corral where a famous gunfight took place in the 1880s which has since become a Hollywood fairey tale.

Never been there. Wasnt Ringo part of the Clanton
gang that the Erps took down, or is that another 4
Monsters Abreast tale? People south of here argue
over whether Jessie James even existed ?

Tombstone was a law unto itself in its "golden age". Everybody was gunning for everyone else and Johnny Ringo and the Earps and Doc Holliday did have "issues". But they were all basically cast from the same mold. They were all gun fighters.

Ringo may, or may not, have shot himself or then maybe someone else shot him. There are several versions of how he met his end maybe none or all of the versions are correct. The true story of what went on in Tombstone in the 1880s could be very elusive.

After the gun fight at the O.K. Corral, the Earps were initially charged with murder but justice was a matter of interpretation and they ended up being run out of town. But before they got out of town, one of the Earp brothers was murdered. And the Earps replied in kind to the suspected culprits.

Somewhere around 1900, a fellow named Earp who was a close relative of the Tombstone Earps was killed after a "misunderstanding" in a card game at a saloon in Willcox. No one was ever charged in that matter.

Today, there are sometimes gatherings of the Earps and Clanton descendants, obviously at different times, in Tombstone. Who were the good guys and who were the bad guys is a matter for you to decide.

[georger 197]

Today, .

[Robert99 37]

Quote

Today, .

Are you going to the Portland or Ariel gatherings?

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

Today, .

Are you going to the Portland or Ariel gatherings?

As of this moment, I don't have any plans to do so. As you know, I had hoped to pay another visit to that area this past summer but a couple of distractions (one was the fire and the other is a possible health matter) got things out of synch.

But I would like to talk to Richard Fazio for a few minutes so maybe all things are still possible. And who knows, maybe I could then make a more leisurely trip there for a few days next summer.

[Mr.Green 0]

Quote

Re: Robert M Blevins. I read this everyday and I can tell you that he is one of the few on here that does not appear to come from a trailer park.

I just spent the last 30 minutes on here reading "go fuck yourself" and other useless comments.

If everyone that posts on this thread would read DROPZONE.COM INCIDENT REPORTS you can see how skydivers who are educated and from trailer parks can have a discussion and share thoughts and facts.
I guess our discussions are dealing with real life situations that may save a life. So we don't play such childish games with words.
I have not ever read a Blevins post on here that was threatening or displaying fowl language. Good for him !
So since you can get away with it ONLY on this thread I would like to tell Georger and Green to GO F@#K YOURSELF. Nice huh !
CAN'T Wait to see the replies, Let's get down and dirty in the trailer park tonight. Break out all of those GED'S and let's do it ! Let;s all talk about everything but D B Cooper and call each other names all night!
My guess is the FBI has asked DZ.com to leave this thread open so they can pick through all of the fighting and maybe get a small detail here and there.
DZ.com would have shut this thread down long ago.

Have any of you ever heard of agreeing to disagree?

Am I supposed to feel insulted or amused by this post?

[Mr.Green 0]

At least you're not stalking me.

[Farflung 0]

RobertMBlevins clarifies:

“Katy Watson (real name for you researchers: Margaret Ann Miller [Geestman] presented news articles and pictures to back up her claim.”

As usual the source attribution is absent. So the vetting process must have been quite rigorous indeed. I know that all crack investigators would use every type of verification available to establish the credibility of a person. If they were spinning tales about the honesty of one individual (Bernie), I would certainly use their claims (Clydesdale world record listing) to help establish their honesty. Otherwise you will end up with a Dan Cooper comic being verified on Shemya in 1951 (3 years before it was published) or Captain Scott talking to DB Cooper and looking at the bomb (Scott never left cockpit according to FBI and Co-pilot of Flt 305).

Just because something is in news articles means little to me and even less to most others without knowing the paper’s name, date of publication and context. This is on par to knowing someone that had a Jeep shipped to them packed in grease. An old tale from the 60’s that many people believed because they wanted to believe it. No source was more refined than ‘a friend, of a friend’. This stupefying sort of activity continues today (Madoff) simply because people don’t change.

[377 21]

Farflung wrote

Quote

Just because something is in news articles means little to me and even less to most others without knowing the paper’s name, date of publication and context. This is on par to knowing someone that had a Jeep shipped to them packed in grease.

In Northern Calif in the 60s that Jeep was an Army motorcycle and grease was "Cosmoline."

The motorcycle nuts were inevitably disappointed but the radio nuts found an abundance of brand new WW2 radio gear in the original packing and it sold for peanuts. As late as 1972 Standard Surplus on Market St in SF was giving away a brand new USN WW2 aircraft HF transmitter with each purchase of $20.

Surplus military parachute gear was plentiful as well and gave skydivers a very cheap way to gear up. It required some rigger mods to be suitable for sport jumping but they were simple and cheap.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

I cannot seem to get the DZ on AOL anymore and have to go to Internet Explorer, but then sometimes that does NOT work.

When I hit favorites either at AOL or Internet Explorer the site comes up, but I can't get in - except by accident.

Also I have to go thur the front page and forums and key in Cooper to get here.

Did I loose a setting? Have there been changes my computer and I do not have?
Do I need to change some settings?

If anyone can walk me thru this I would appreciate it.

[email protected]

I hate to have to pay someone to fix this if anyone can walk me thru what is wrong.

I have Windows XP so there is no longer any support.

Getting too old to figure these things out. Before is was something in settings I had to change.

Quade or one of you other guys tell me what is wrong. I used to just be able to go on AOL (I have only dial-up) - hit me favorites and DZ and I was there at the last post I read. NO longer can do. It is the computer or the operator or changes? OR all 3?

Takes me several tries to get in and when I do I don't remember how I got here. NOW you know I am getting old - can't remember anything any more.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 197]

Quote

RobertMBlevins clarifies:

“Katy Watson (real name for you researchers: Margaret Ann Miller [Geestman] presented news articles and pictures to back up her claim.”

As usual the source attribution is absent. So the vetting process must have been quite rigorous indeed. I know that all crack investigators would use every type of verification available to establish the credibility of a person. If they were spinning tales about the honesty of one individual (Bernie), I would certainly use their claims (Clydesdale world record listing) to help establish their honesty. Otherwise you will end up with a Dan Cooper comic being verified on Shemya in 1951 (3 years before it was published) or Captain Scott talking to DB Cooper and looking at the bomb (Scott never left cockpit according to FBI and Co-pilot of Flt 305).

.

Reply via Georger:

Georger,

I would think that the claim about the first woman
driver to drive four Clydes abreast would be very
hard to substantiate. For hundreds of years draft
horses have been used in farming and Clydes have
have been used in that capacity as well. Women
commonly did plowing or ran the teams in logging
operations while the men did sawing and more
arduous tasks. Four abreast is a very common hitch
for farming and logging and racing. It would be very
difficult to prove or disprove which woman was the
absolute first. I would have to say many were the
first. I hope this helps.

Sincerely,
The Henken Family [Clydesdales]
Ferndale Washington
http://www.nwclydes.com/

[skyjack71 0]

I can barely make a post lately, but I wanted to let you guys know that someone sent me some of the things being posted on Bruce's site.

Seems like Bruce and Cook are taking credit for finding Tina. All of you know I spoke to her in 2003 and that I am the one who connected Tina and the Co-pilot after all of these yrs. I have the emails to prove it.

Galen had been trying to get Tina's location out of me since 2004. I have a letter he sent me in regards to this - it is dated. I finally dropped him a big hint and told him where to find the Divorce records - from there he was on his own.

In 2003 - a person I will call Robbie Clamplett contacted me and told me how to find Tina and left it up to the 2 of us what happened after that. I had acquired the same information on my own - but, wasn't sure I had the right Tina.

I respected her privacy enough to be respectful of what she had been thru and what she had done with her life. I have been at this for 15 yrs.

Seems like Bruce's story about Cooks interview is very different than what Cook himself told me.I will leave that one for Cook to tell in his book.


Just as I do not post on Sluggo's site, I will not post on Bruce's site - what I would like to see some truths being told.
There are individuals who think Bruce is a hero and others who feel as I do - SICK to MY Stomach about how they (Bruce and Cook) stalked Tina. I didn't like Gray revealing her location either.

I read what all of the writers are stating about Tina and about others involved over the yrs. The information trail has been this Thread here on DropZone.

Tina was found in 2003 by Jo Weber. Emails from Robbie Clamplett will prove Jo Weber has known since 2003 and it was only verification of the same information that she (me Jo Weber) had already acquired) - but chose to be respectful of this witness.

Bet Bruce won't put this in his Mountain News.

Couldn't believe it when Bruce stated that Cook claimed the co-pilot got him in touch with Tina.

How the HELL does Cook think the Co-pilot knew? Cook is very aware of the story about Bill asking me to put him in contact with Tina. He sent me an email which I read off to her recorder word for word and then he put something in there so she would know it was really him. He asked her if she remembered what he gave her the Christmas after the Skyjacking.

I have his email saved as a HARD COPY. Therefore it contains DATES and TIMES.


It is things like this "story" about Tina that I find sickening.
Writers who write books and produce other media taken from the blood and tears and anquish of others.

Some of you have the GALL to call me a liar. Blevins, you get this Thread on Paper so that it never disappears. Frankly the DZ could profit by making disks of this thread available in sets. A lot of history has unfolded in the thread and I would like for my children to someday know what this has been like and why I had to keep pushing for the truth to be told.

My personal records and this thread and my emails make liars out of some of these writers. Did they think I was such an idiot I did NOT back myself up with paper and disks? I can't say that for things prior to 2000, as
most of that was notes and private communications and some tapes.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Erroll 49]

Quote

... And if that happened, a massive amount of research and historical information would be lost.

You folks give yourselves way too much credit. Out of the 10000 pages you would struggle to fill even one page with factual and useful information.

[377 21]

Quote

You folks give yourselves way too much credit. Out of the 10000 pages you would struggle to fill even one page with factual and useful information.

It's quite a bit more than one page, but the ratio of useful facts to irrelevant diatribe is pitifully low. In communication theory this is called signal to noise ratio (S/N). This forum is a very noisy channel. I point to the recent Clydesdale arguments as an example.

Someday Cooper's ID will be discovered. When it is, people will cherry pick from forum posts and say "I told you so." It's like saving up a million paper slips from fortune cookies. You can back plot after the fact and find a prediction to fit a later occurrence.

Meanwhile the mystery is an amusing hobby for most. Some go a bit deeper.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

[This forum is a very noisy channel. I point to the recent Clydesdale arguments as an example.

[Farflung 0]

Here is yet another example of how the ‘DBC monster’ is allowed to evolve, grow and get stronger. Be it a DC-7 flying out of Dutch Harbor or a woman with X-ray eyes that can see a person on the aft stairs of a jet at night. Let them talk, let’s see what they have to say is a constant chorus from those who appear to enjoy watching the monster stomp out of the lab and into the village. I’m going out on a limb and say false memories, delusions or used Clydesdale feed manufacture on an epic scale is the source of their tales.

Why not drive hundreds of miles to interview a person that could not craft a factually correct statement? You may learn (or ignore) a great deal about them face to face and the very act of driving hundreds of miles to chase down garbage will actually convert it to gold in several people’s viewpoints. So that is probably the best explanation for this absurd and continued practice.

In the faulty court system in the US, if a witness is impeached on one bit of testimony it can be used to weigh the balance of all their testimony. This appears a reasonable approach to me but others like to pick and choose what data a person provides is true due to their great BS detecting abilities.

Therefore Bernie is a liar because his pure wife who stayed married to him into the 90’s for financial gain (according to their divorce appeal) is telling the truth because she was the first woman to drive four Clydesdales abreast AND raced in the Iditarod. Yep, if she holds both of those distinctions then she MUST me telling the truth. Otherwise one may consider both of them to be of marginal credibility (we don’t want that). Yep, Bernie is a liar, he lied about not hijacking Flight 305 with Kenny and that’s the end of that. Case solved and closed.

Now everyone can get back to a more intelligent and polite discussion:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3760930;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;guest=81182394

[georger 197]

Quote

Here is yet another example of how the ‘DBC monster’ is allowed to evolve, grow and get stronger. Be it a DC-7 flying out of Dutch Harbor or a woman with X-ray eyes that can see a person on the aft stairs of a jet at night. Let them talk, let’s see what they have to say is a constant chorus from those who appear to enjoy watching the monster stomp out of the lab and into the village. I’m going out on a limb and say false memories, delusions or used Clydesdale feed manufacture on an epic scale is the source of their tales.

Why not drive hundreds of miles to interview a person that could not craft a factually correct statement? You may learn (or ignore) a great deal about them face to face and the very act of driving hundreds of miles to chase down garbage will actually convert it to gold in several people’s viewpoints. So that is probably the best explanation for this absurd and continued practice.

In the faulty court system in the US, if a witness is impeached on one bit of testimony it can be used to weigh the balance of all their testimony. This appears a reasonable approach to me but others like to pick and choose what data a person provides is true due to their great BS detecting abilities.

Therefore Bernie is a liar because his pure wife who stayed married to him into the 90’s for financial gain (according to their divorce appeal) is telling the truth because she was the first woman to drive four Clydesdales abreast AND raced in the Iditarod. Yep, if she holds both of those distinctions then she MUST me telling the truth. Otherwise one may consider both of them to be of marginal credibility (we don’t want that). Yep, Bernie is a liar, he lied about not hijacking Flight 305 with Kenny and that’s the end of that. Case solved and closed.

Now everyone can get back to a more intelligent and polite discussion:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3760930;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;guest=81182394

Has this person RobertMBlevins ever considered for
one moment that he-personally will now be defined
and delineated for LIFE by the very crap he has
written and said and foisted off on an innocent world?

Shame on Blevins. He just sullied and spoiled a
perfectly good name and opportunity - his own!

Porteous must be hiding under his desk quaking,
praying the phone doesn't ring.

"Mr. Porteous? This is Jerry Springer calling ....."

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

... And if that happened, a massive amount of research and historical information would be lost.

You folks give yourselves way too much credit. Out of the 10000 pages you would struggle to fill even one page with factual and useful information.

More than one page as 377 said... HOWEVER... if certain people (note the plural) didn't feel the need to post the same stuff over and over and over again (you know, like a child: if you say it often enough it "becomes true") we could probably have kept it down to oh less than a hundred?!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 21]

From another site which somehow is free of flame wars and concentrates on Cooper. Naturehominid posted this after perusing the mini website I constructed regarding the 727-100 series airstair system. I think he did a great job, but I expected that as he and I graduated from the same engineering school.b

Quote

How did Dan get the airstairs down? It is possible to figure it out
from the few data points we have.

The public information is that he dropped the stairs, they fell to a
natural balance between weight and airflow pressure, and the stairs
rebounded when he jumped, to fully closed or nearly so, and then dropped
back down.

We also know that the stair operating system was at least very close to
being as depicted in the World Airways manual pages at BOEING 377's web
site . We don't
know the actual effectivity date of that 727-173C information, but the
use and overall description information for the airstairs is entirely
consistent with the information in my TWA manual effective as of 1969
(and clearly distinguishes between -100, -100C and -200 versions of the
727). And the emergency extension information in both manuals is
consistent with that on the "Toutle" placard, with minor difference
about where the controls were and how inadvertent use of the emergency
controls was avoided.

Refer to the manual page 41 diagram (2 places) at BOEING 377's site as
we examine the possible options. (If you have difficulty viewing or
printing the page, save the image to your computer and view or print
with any convenient viewer software.)

FIRST OPTION: THE NORMAL AIRSTAIR DEPLOYMENT METHOD

The "normal" means for dropping the stairs was to move the control
handle to DOWN and press the button on the end of the handle to apply
hydraulic pressure to lower the stair.

Moving the handle to DOWN opens the latches on either side of the
stairs, and turns the flow control valve to the DOWN ("X") condition
shown near right-center in the diagram (and in the right figure of the
valve position key at the bottom right corner of the diagram). With the
button depressed, the hydraulic on-off valve at the upper right turns to
let the hydraulic fluid flow straight down through the valve, through a
check valve (arrow shows direction of allowed flow), to the control
valve.

The control valve is in the condition shown in the diagram. The fluid
flows cross-wise to the "DOWN" (right side) inlet of the actuator,
pushing the actuator piston toward the condition shown in the diagram.
The fluid that was already on the other side of the piston is pushed out
of the actuator at the "UP" (left side) inlet to the control valve,
through it and out to the hydraulic fluid reservoir (labeled "manifold"
in the diagram).

Pushing the actuator piston toward DOWN would push the stair toward
fully down for as long as Dan held the pushbutton down. They don't fall
to a balance between weight and airflow, so this can't be the way it
actually happened. If Dan had stopped depressing the pushbutton on the
handle before getting the stairs all the way down, the stairs would have
stopped the downward travel. In this condition, could the stairs have
sprung back up when Dan jumped off them? No.

In this condition, pushing upward on the stairs would try to push fluid
out the DOWN (right side) inlet of the actuator where the fluid was
pushed in before to drop the stairs. It would try to push fluid
cross-wise through the control valve where it would then encounter three
separate routes, each of which is blocked by check valves (which allow
flow only in the opposite direction). So the stairs couldn't come up
because the fluid couldn't flow in the reverse "UP" direction.

Same thing if the pushbutton were held down until the stairs were all
the way down, except that the system may not have been able to push the
stairs all the way down against the airflow (insufficient power). And
attempting to push the stairs all the way down against the airflow could
have damaged something in the system.

So, using the hydraulics doesn't fit the "natural balance" criterion and
it doesn't fit the "rebound" criterion.

If the stairs were pushed down hydraulicly, the crew would have had to
go back to check, and raise them if necessary, before landing. They
could not tell from the cockpit because the -100 series 727s didn't have
the green light that the -200 series 727s had on the flight engineer's
annunciator panel. They could not count on Dan to leave or get the
stairs up. But Dan had told them not to come aft. To do so could have
provoked him to detonate "the bomb."

Finally, having the stairs pushed far down, and having them remain so
even after Dan jumped, would have increased fuel consumption and
increased the chances of the plane running out and having to make an
emergency landing somewhere.

All the above means that the crew had no choice but to disable the
normal means of dropping the stairs. They had to either cut off the
power to the pushbutton switch on the control handle or turn off "B"
hydraulic power to do this. The flight could have managed without the B
hydraulic but would have had less rudder and less elevator.

So Dan must not have used the "normal" method to drop the stairs,
because the stairs would not have "freefell to a natural balance," could
not have rebounded and the crew would have had to deny him the option
anyway.

2ND OPTION: DROPPING THE STAIRS WITHOUT HYDRAULIC POWER

Had the B hydraulic pump(s) been turned off, the stairs would have
started to drop under their own weight if the handle was moved to DOWN
and the stairs weren't stuck, but would stop dropping if the pushbutton
on the end of the handle was depressed. Depressing the switch would
turn the hydraulic on-off valve (top-right of diagram) to the B
hydraulic source, but there would be nothing there. And the stair
weight would not have been able to suck any fluid, so the stairs
couldn't drop further.

If the pushbutton were not depressed, however, the stairs would drop
under their own weight, provided that they weren't stuck. The stair
struts would push the hydraulic actuator piston toward DOWN, the piston
would have sucked hydraulic fluid out of the reservoir (manifold)
through the hydraulic on-off valve, the check valve, and the control
valve and into the actuator. Fluid already on the other side of the
piston would be pushed out through the control valve and into the
reservoir.

The flow would be the same as it would have been with hydraulic B power
except that it would have been sucked by the weight of the stairs rather
than being pushed by hydraulic power, and it would have come from the
reservoir rather than the hydraulic pumps.

The stairs would fall until the airflow pushed up on them enough to
counteract the weight of the stairs and the stair mechanism (struts).
So, this method matches the "freefall" and "natural balance" criteria.

With respect to pushing the stairs back up, the situation would have
been the same as it would have been if the stairs had been dropped using
hydraulic power. Backflow would be blocked the same. So the stairs
would not have rebounded when Dan jumped. Hazards to the crew would
have been similar except that the stairs would not have come down as far
as they would have without hydraulic power.

The crew would have had to face going back to check and maybe raise the
stairs, and maybe provoke Dan into detonating "the bomb."

So using the "normal" way of dropping the stairs without hydraulic power
does not meet all the criteria. NWA probably gave Dan the emergency
extension procedure in order to avoid the safety problems, and the crew
denied him the use of the hydraulic power. I don't know if the circuit
breaker for the power to the pushbutton switch was in the cockpit. If
it wasn't, the crew could definitely have turned hydraulic "B" off at
the flight engineer's console.

Besides the fact that the stairs would not have dropped all the way down
without hydraulic power, there is a curious thing that would have
happened. With the stairs down in the airstream, any stair movement
down as a result of flapping in the breeze, turbulence, or the plane
bouncing would be irreversible. Therefore, factors such as these would
cause the stairs to pump themselves down somewhat beyond the point of
balance between the airflow and the stair mechanism weight. They would
"tighten down." In that position they would no longer bounce or flap in
the breeze. The force up from the airflow would continually exceed the
weight of the stairs mechanism.

3RD OPTION: EMERGENCY STAIR EXTENSION

To avoid the hazardous situation of the stairs being stuck down by
hydraulic pressure, the crew would need to keep the control valve in the
normal stair control system in the UP condition. This is the left
condition shown in the key (3 figures) in the bottom right corner of the
diagram. In this condition, the cavities on both sides of the actuator
piston are connected directly to each other and to the hydraulic
reservoir (manifold). If the stairs dropped under this condition, they
would push the piston toward DOWN and the piston would push the fluid in
the UP side of the actuator out to the control valve and suck the same
fluid back in to the DOWN side of the actuator. Easy in, easy out.
Free to fall, free to rebound.

But the stairs don't unlatch if the control handle is left in the UP
position. Solution: "Blow the hatch." Use the emergency (pneumatic)
extension system. This simply knocks off the "uplock rollers" on the
sides of the stairs. These are what the latches grab when the stairs
are latched up. With them detached, the stairs are free to drop. The
action also kicks the stairs down and probably damages the latches some
if not totally.

CONCLUSION

The only stair deployment method that fits what we've been told about
the hijacking is the emergency extension method with the normal stair
control handle left in the UP position. Besides detaching the uplock
rollers, this would have damaged the latches.

AN INTERESTING LITTLE QUESTION

BOEING 377's World Airways manual, in the instructions for dropping the
stairs, indicates that the rate at which the stairs drop is limited (for
safety) by a flow restrictor in the hydraulic "line" at the UP inlet of
the actuator. This is not shown in the diagram to which we've been
referring. A flow restrictor could be just a conical disk with a small
hole in it, inserted under a hydraulic compression nut. Or, it could be
a separate thing like a check valve, but the disc under the compression
nut would be more consistent with the "in the line" terminology.

A "flow restrictor" would usually restrict flow in both directions, and
the holy disc "in the line" definitely would, in which case this could
prevent the rebounding of the stairs. It is possible that a device
could restrict in one way but not the other, like by drilling a small
hole in the disk of a check valve.

But we don't know if N467US had the flow restrictor. It is something
that is easy to put in or leave out.

The interesting part is this. World Airways had only six 727-173Cs.
Their manual says they kept them all the same. They flew some contract
work in SE Asia during the Vietnam war. They likely bought the 727s for
this, and likely even with the money they got from those contracts.
Maybe they actually put the flow restrictors in their planes to keep the
stairs from rebounding when something or someone went off the end of the
stairs during flight?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

The public information is that he dropped the stairs, they fell to a
natural balance between weight and airflow pressure, and the stairs
rebounded when he jumped, to fully closed or nearly so, and then dropped
back down.

[skyjack71 0]

I can get to the site but it won't hold. Thought it was AOL, but tried everything - nothing worked.
Could get in and read and then POOF - gone!

When I went to do a quote on your last post regarding connectivity issue it again went Poof. The only way I can make a response to not use quote, but reply only.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 197]

Quote

I can get to the site but it won't hold. Thought it was AOL, but tried everything - nothing worked.
Could get in and read and then POOF - gone!

When I went to do a quote on your last post regarding connectivity issue it again went Poof. The only way I can make a response to not use quote, but reply only.

everyone that I know was having issues - Quade
was on top of it - now seems fixed. But, it did give
me pause to think and reflect. Lets improve things
here. Thats all I can say.