DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

Looking at Sluggo's photo:
12112 Lower River Road Google Earth RED.jpg

Looking at the width of the beach along the shore
in the vicinity of the money location. It is much wider
near the money location compared to up and down shore. Or is it solely man made. I would think it must reflect natural river hydraulics.

Doesn't this mean the river hydraulics are more prone to deposit sediment in this area, rather than erode?
That's interesting then. It might help feeling better about "why this site" for the money drop.


I was thinking if we had a budget we'd have a hydraulics engineer write a graphic simulation based on water flow and depth and obstructions (like that little island) and we'd be able to simulate the likely deposit points for debris in the area from 71-80. oh well.

[peckerhead 0]

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Cossey sounds about as enthusiastic as some of our DZ community members...

According to the AP just minutes ago:
Cossey has been through the drill before; this is the third time the FBI has asked him to examine parachutes to see whether they might have been Cooper's.

One chute found long ago — he couldn't remember when — was just a "pilot chute," used to pull the main chute out of the pack. The other time, in 1988, it was a parachute found by a Columbia River diver seeking clues to Cooper's fate.

"They keep bringing me garbage," Cossey said. "Every time they find squat, they bring it out and open their trunk and say, 'Is that it?' and I say, 'Nope, go away.' Then a few years later they come back."

Cossey, though sounding cantakerous, appeared to relish the spotlight Tuesday. He answered his cell phone with "D.B. Cooper" and said he got a kick out of telling some reporters that the parachute was, in fact, the hijacker's.

One reporter called him back angrily, saying he could be fired for writing a false story, but another said the newsroom enjoyed the April Fool's joke.

"I'm getting mixed reviews," Cossey said. "But I'm having fun with it; what the heck."



You have to admit it. Cossey is a riot.

You have to understand that since 1971 skydivers/military/smokejumpers/demos, etc. have been dropping trash all over the area that Cooper supposedly jumped from on a daily/ weekly/ monthly/ yearly basis.

Since Cooper jumped it would be safe to say that at least a million jumps have been made in the vicinity and guess what? Sometimes we lose shit and don't retrieve it.

I don't think whuffos have a clue how many times humans jump, someone is in freefall making a jump right now as you read this. Someone, somewhere is under canopy and decending. It is a big planet.


Good lord! Someone dug up a parachute in WA, stop the presses! It must be DB Cooper!

It is fools gold for whuffos.

[snowmman 3]

I'm looking at the 1971 sketch and wondering why
the young stewardesses and Scott (51) thought he was >40

(I'm assuming Scott got a look at Cooper? they all did?

The usual things people key off of is weight, hair amount/color/thickness/colors, skin condition, wrinkles, physical conditioning.

So say he was kind of out of shape for a young guy, but thin (typical engineer then).

Premature balding, so he has a receding hairline.

smoker/drink so his skin isn't so great.

But the big thing I'm wondering...is the sketch telling us he had a receding hair line. I've seen 30 year old guys that look 50 just because they've got early hair loss.

People are usually bad at judging this.

People sometimes use vocal patterns for estimating age. They assume someone who speaks with authority deserves that respect, ergo age deference. But it could just be speaking with authority.

Be nice to know the answer to "Why you do think he's 40-50" as opposed to just "How old do you think he is"

Were there gray hairs? I thought not. That's odd. It would be more typical for 40-50 yr old to have some grey hairs. Maybe they noted some?

[skyjack71 0]

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In one of the early shows immediately after the crime a witness who was on the plane - said that Cooper had a "pocket-book". Not a retangular brief case as the media as consistently claimed.

In my early discussion with Himmelsbach - I told him about somethings that Duane had. I describe a medium tan canvas hand bag with leather handles and other leather hardware on it. Bigger than a shaving kit and smaller than an overnight bag...but may have been classified as one for 1971. When I got rid of that thing he objected, but I won. I would call this item a satchel. The bottom was from my memory about 6 inches wide and it was about 17 inches long and the depth would have been about 9 inches or more. It tapered up at the top and closed with a zipper with double leather handles. Seems like the leather was a dark brown. I do not know if it had a strap. This is from memory and it could have been larger...somethings fade with time and stress.

Is this the brief case or the pocket book the witness was referring to? I believe he was Mr. Simmons.

CKRET: Please address this. This is the second time I have posted this.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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But the big thing I'm wondering...is the sketch telling us he had a receding hair line. I've seen 30 year old guys that look 50 just because they've got early hair loss.

People are usually bad at judging this.

Be nice to know the answer to "Why you do think he's 40-50" as opposed to just "How old do you think he is"

Were there gray hairs? I thought not. That's odd. It would be more typical for 40-50 yr old to have some grey hairs. Maybe they noted some?

I have questioned over and over the receding hair line...Duane had a very high forehead - it slanted back and if you looked at him straight on it appeared normal. If you were shorter than he was with the forehead slanting it appeared to be receding and also not has high. If you were looking had him from above - the slant would make you think he had receding hair. I have tried to show this to the FBI in pictures and felt the witnesses needed to see photo in all angles and explanation of his age at the time of the photos.

As for the gray hair - the stewardess said that it appeared to be dyed - perhaps it was very shiny as that is what the temporary dyes of 71 did. Most women can and did in 1971 tell if someone dyed their hair.

I find it necessary to ignore the DNA on the tie because of information I have disclosed before and information that I obtained in the past 3 months. I think it is time for the FBI to address that tie - once and for all, plus the sachell (briefcase) and Duane's unknown yrs...was he in the service serving UNDER someone elses name - This DID happen during Viet Nam?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

re: dye theory.

This is interesting if true. One way to interpret that is that the stewardess thought the quality/color depth of the hair was inconsistent with the receding hairline. You'd expect grays/thinner hair for an old person (along with the receding hairline)

Another explanation would be premature receding. 35 year old guy with a hair problem.

women don't have the balding problem so they'd naturally guess the issue might be something they're familar with...like dye.

Good point though. If he goes to the trouble of trying to hide his eyes (sunglasses...no other reason for them in fall NW) then you would think he might try to disguise his hair.

Need Ckret to chime in as rumor or not. (I know, I know, it's all going to be in the prior posts ;) )

If he really did have shiny black hair, I'm very confused about "why" they guessed the age as 40-50. The wanted poster doesn't seem to say he had old skin. What are the "old" qualities that drive the age guess? mostly the hairline? no grey hairs.

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As for the gray hair - the stewardess said that it appeared to be dyed - perhaps it was very shiny as that is what the temporary dyes of 71 did. Most women can and did in 1971 tell if someone dyed their hair.

I

[quade 3]

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Need Ckret to chime in as rumor or not. (I know, I know, it's all going to be in the prior posts ;) )

Again, confusing needs with wants. I guess you missed the subtlety of my last post about this point, but Mr. Carr isn't anyone's personal research assistant. At least not on this web site.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[snowmman 3]

Hi quade. I will apologize if I'm violating any forum etiquette.

Here's my understanding of forum behavior.
-we are all adults.
-people can always do anything they want
-people can say anything they want as long as it's not boring or insulting. Boring is probably the worst offense.
-everyone is equal

I've been told I should do things. I don't take offense. I decide what to do based on whatever.
Everyone does whatever they want. That's keeps it cool. (at least that's how I think).

I think I'm good at perceiving when I should shut up. I've not felt that yet. if I'm wrong....

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Need Ckret to chime in as rumor or not. (I know, I know, it's all going to be in the prior posts ;) )

Again, confusing needs with wants. I guess you missed the subtlety of my last post about this point, but Mr. Carr isn't anyone's personal research assistant. At least not on this web site.

[377 21]

My retired NWA 727 training captain is available for more questions if anyone has some. He joined NWA after the Cooper case but is a 727 expert and has contacts with older NWA retirees.

I was amazed to read about how many Cooper copycat hijacks occurred.

The craziest one occurred in the Phillipines. The hijacker exited wearing a HOMEMADE chute that shredded on opening.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Ckret long ago posted this assertion that was unchallenged

"The rubber bands would have rotted long before the bundles were found on the beach, meaning there would not have been bundles if the money was in the environment unprotected."

The implication is that rubber bands are needed to maintain the integrity of a bundle, as it is deposited onto the beach.

I don't think there is any scientific experiment that proves this requirement. It's a guess. I would venture that it's a bad guess.

My experience with wet magazines, newspapers, phone books, is that moist thin pieces of paper will maintain alignment integrity as long as they stay wet/saturated.

Have you ever tried to separate wet thin papers without destroying them? There's a reason: adhesion. I'm sure there are scientific reasons why thin wet papers stick together.

Think of the last time your wallet with cash went in the drink. Could you take the bills out and throw them at your bud's forehead and have them all stick in a bundle? Yes.

Just thought of another fer-instance:
the Ingrams brought the bundles home while wet. I be they stayed "bundlized" during that process, even though the rubber bands had disappeared.

Fire away: Challenge me on this.

edit: More evidence of the strength of adhesion.
A rubber band will only compress the center of the pack. It extends compression to the rest of the bill, only thru what rigidity the bill has. Most rigidity is lost when wet.

SO: THE REASON THERE IS LITTLE DECAY ON THE CENTER OF THE BILLS IS BECAUSE THEY ADHERED TIGHTLY TOGETHER WHILE WET. NOT BECAUSE OF THE RUBBER BAND. IF THE ADHESIVE STRENGTH WAS ENOUGH FOR DIFFERENTIAL DECAY, I PROPOSE IT WAS STRONG ENOUGH TO MAINTAIN THE BUNDLE (AS LONG AS KEPT WET)

I think I've slam dunked this.

Another mental visualization. When you toss the sunday paper in the river...does it immediately go to individual sheets? no it stays in a big soppy slab o paper.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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Good point though. If he goes to the trouble of trying to hide his eyes (sunglasses...no other reason for them in fall NW) then you would think he might try to disguise his hair.

I would be willing to bet Cooper wore sunglasses for the same reason Pirates and Nuclear Bomber Pilots wear an eye-patch. Not to be cool, not to shade their eyes from other people's glances, but to dark adapt the eye/eyes.

I'd bank on it, so, Ckret maybe you should think about it when you develop a profile.

I think Cooper was a lot smarter than Ckret does.

Sluggo_Monster

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Hot Off The Press

Parachute thought to be from '45 military crash
By CASEY MCNERTHNEY
P-I REPORTER

The FBI confirmed Tuesday that there was no connection between D.B. Cooper -- the man still wanted for the world's only unsolved hijacking -- and the parachute dug up last month in southwest Washington.

The hijacker boarded a commercial Portland-to-Seattle flight Nov. 24, 1971, and demanded $200,000 and four parachutes. The one working parachute he jumped with was a military issue model, and children playing last month on newly plowed property near Amboy thought they had discovered it.

"Cooper's parachute was nylon, and the one the FBI has is silk," said Earl Cossey, the man who provided Cooper's chute and inspected the FBI's find on Friday. "The one they have is from about 1945."

So where did the mysterious chute come from? A local military historian and an Air Force veteran believe it could be from a 1945 crash in the same area.

Marine Lt. Floyd Walling was piloting a Corsair airplane flying from Portland to Seattle on Dec. 27, 1945. He later told his wife that he encountered bad weather and had to bail out when his instruments failed.

"Every time I tried to get him to quit smoking, he said it was a cigarette lighter that kept him alive," said his son, Choya Walling, of Bryan, Texas. "He used it to build a fire to stay warm."

Walling walked about eight miles until he came near the town of Yale, about nine miles from Amboy, the following day.

"He had followed a creek for the last part and we found him near Reese's store," said Howard Hanson, who was an Army Air Force lieutenant assigned to search for Walling. "We wanted to find out exactly where he landed, but he was really confused and noncommittal after being out there."

Another pilot who had bailed out from another plane was found dead in his chute. Jo Walling said her husband, who later fought in the Korean War and died in 1999, didn't specify how he got out of his parachute. Hanson said that, depending on the type of chute, he either slipped out of the harness or used a survival knife most pilots carried in case their chutes became hung up.

The date stamped on the found parachute -- Feb. 21, 1946 -- is the repacking date, not the packing date, Hanson said. Local military historian John "Cye" Laramie said last week that date was the only thing questionable about linking it to Walling's crash.

FBI spokeswoman Robbie Burroughs said it's "definitely possible" Walling's chute is the one they have, but the bureau does not plan to further investigate it.

"We never did find Walling's chute," said Hanson. "It just was left out there in the same place they found what they thought was Cooper's parachute. That's why when I heard about all this, I was sure it wasn't Cooper's."

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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Another mental visualization. When you toss the sunday paper in the river...does it immediately go to individual sheets? no it stays in a big soppy slab o paper.

My paper is made out of paper, hence the name. In fact, it’s crappy paper, it’s the paper I make paper Marché out of.

On the other hand, my money is made mostly of cloth.

Find a better analogy. Right string, wrong Yo-Yo.

Sluggo_Monster

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[Ckret 0]

Snowman, I think Cooper was 40 to 50 because everyone described him as such. No one in the cockpit ever saw Cooper.

The rubbed bands, according to the Ingrams, were found with the rubber bands wrapped around the bundles and they crumbled to the touch (not dust).

[Ckret 0]

Cossey is a kick in the pants, that guy was one of the best interviews i have had in my near 20 years. And playing the April Fools joke on the media almost went donw in media history. The story was minutes away from hitting the wire, in fact it made Google news for about 5 minutes before they pulled it.

[Ckret 0]

No witness ever stated Coopers hair appeared to be dyed.

[Ckret 0]

I agree with you about the center bills not being as decayed as the outer and that wet things stick together but the debate is academic because the rubber bands were found around the bundles.

[Ckret 0]

It was a briefcase, no one that had direct contact with Cooper described anything other than a briefcase and small paper bag.

[Ckret 0]

In my attempts to be responsive to your questions could you highlight them so I don't miss it. I enjoy the debate and theory and try to read it all but sometimes my head starts spinning with some of it and I miss your question.

I think some of you could save yourself a lot of time and space on the board if you ask the question before stating the theory. A few times i have read posts that go on for quite a bit based on false information.

[novalis 0]

has anyone given thought to the name? (i know of course that there could be many reasons for it!) is, for example, "DAN" a common acronym related to flight? if so, it might give a clue as to where he "was coming from".

as to age: it's a general impression we get, it is not fixed to any one feature. i think women are generally pretty good at judging men's ages.

cooper has been described as having a darker skin. could he have been wearing any
kind of protective coverage? he knew he would be jumping in raw weather and he may have planned a high altitude hike on thanksgiving day. (copper tan: dan cooper? ) or might we expect that the stewardess would have noticed if he had any "cosmetic" layers?

the bathroom incident requires more thought. it is too easy to assume "he had to go"´. if i were hijacking a plane that was now on the ground with people around it, i would rather embarass myself by throwing up in the cabin but keep my eye on entrances and exits. on the other hand:

reading the transcript i see the pilot talks about the fact that the "individual" is on the other side of the plane, etc. in other words, that he is not watching all that closely what is going on outside the plane. (he does have a hostage in the stewardess and this might give him confidence that no one is going to attack him, and risk her life.) his not watching the windows may indicate laxness, but it might indicate that he had some reason to believe that he would not be attacked. were procedures worked out on how to deal with hijackings? could the hijacker have known that he was safe from an attack at that stage of the (any) hijacking?

[raftman 12]

The date stamped on the found parachute -- Feb. 21, 1946 -- is the repacking date, not the packing date, Hanson said. Local military historian John "Cye" Laramie said last week that date was the only thing questionable about linking it to Walling's crash.

I don't get this part. The repack date was stamped on the chutes in those days? Doesn't that mean you would have to unpack the chute to see the repack date? Makes no sense.

[snowmman 3]

A prior post implied no data could be gathered from the falling aft stair placad (if it was "the one") because it acted like a sail.

I was surprised at this claim, since this is a chute site, and we should understand chutes and airfoils and the stability needed for them to maintain their behavior properties.

A thin flexible object like that would display chaotic motion falling thru a fluid like water or air. There have been interesting simulations on such chaotic behavior when trying to pinpoint the location of a boat that sinks.

What we need to know though is that it's chaotic. it doesn't act like a sail, but instead like a very efficient parachute (with no payload). It has a low terminal velocity. (think streamer recovery on rockets)

So it got me thinking if we know the placard is "the one". No one probably thought to look for placards on the plane afterwards, because there was no reason to think it had disappeared at that time.

I would really like to know how the placard is normally attached to the 727. I'm thinking it might have been slid behind some plastic, so it could be removed/changed if necessary during maintenance.

I'm thinking Cooper removed it for easier reading since he was tall, and left it on a seat nearby.

Then I'm thinking it went out the door during the pressure differential caused by the jump exit.

If we come up with a predicted terminal velocity for the placard, we should be able to create a drift path based on prevailing winds.

yes it would travel farther than the cooper drift path.

But it's not a sail. It's not unpredictable behavior. It's not flying to China.

oh p.s last nite I dreamt Cooper is Agent Smith (sunglasses/tie/suit) in The Matrix. and Ckret is Neo, also known as Mr. Anderson. Everything we need to know is in the movie

"The answer is out there, Neo, and it's looking for you, and it will find you if you want it to. "

Neo has to believe he's the One.

[quade 3]

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oh p.s last nite I dreamt Cooper is Agent Smith (sunglasses/tie/suit) in The Matrix. and Ckret is Neo, also known as Mr. Anderson.

Bwahahaah . . . .

Hate to say this and it's not really a dig at Carr, but if you're going to map his life to any character, with regards to the DB Cooper case at least, he'd be a lot closer to Fox Mulder.

No offense to Carr, but you gotta know that's how at least a few people see him.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[snowmman 3]

I had some thoughts on this. I could imagine a subconcious conflict of wanting to leave your thumbprint on it because you are just so f*ing smart and want to brag, even if just to yourself. You're not going to just pick it out of a phone book (although that would be the smart thing to do)

I was wondering about the name being assembled this way:

First name from brother or young son.
Last name is his middle name.

I also had a random thought that maybe Cooper didn't have a driver's license. Otherwise I'm wondering why the FBI didn't get a good screen based on driver's licenses (using eye color/height). I thought driver's license records were computerized in the late 60's in Oregon. don't know about WA.

***has anyone given thought to the name? (i know of course that there could be many reasons for it!) is, for example, "DAN" a common acronym related to flight? if so, it might give a clue as to where he "was coming from".
***

[snowmman 3]

hey we think alike. You're narrowing in on my suspect.

Assume he belonged to a hiking club in the NW. He's not the profile that he would be more of a climber. Just a hiker. He's reasonably fit, he does hike outdoors. But he's not a rugged outdoorsman. He's not a mountaineer. The dark skin is from the sun during those hikes. He lives in the NW...people in the NW probably get a sense of what I mean.

(also think back to the late '60s and early '70s for what that kind of outdoor behavior was like then)


He might have actually done some conditioning hikes beforehand.

Thinking about the profile, remember I think he was fired in Spring 1971. So he had the summer off...time to hike around, stew about his predicament and how he was going to pay the bills on the house he bought in 1966 and he's got all these young kids now. (i'm oscillating between whether he was married or not)


***
cooper has been described as having a darker skin. could he have been wearing any
kind of protective coverage? he knew he would be jumping in raw weather and he may have planned a high altitude hike on thanksgiving day. (copper tan: dan cooper? ) or might we expect that the stewardess would have noticed if he had any "cosmetic" layers?
***