Reserve pad pulls

[billvon 2,406]

>My point was if a pillow handle works for a cutaway handle, why do you need a
>better grip on the reserve handle which is easier to pull? I don't think grip on a
> pillow has been a factor in hard pulls.
I know it has been a factor on tandem hard pulls, which is one reason the pocket is now used. An "open" handle allows several hand positions that allows you to maximize your leverage - a soft closed handle allows only one.
>I don't think I have ever heard a story where someone experienced a hard pull and
> couldn't get a good enough grip on a pillow handle.
I think they are related. Your arms are stronger in some positions than others.
>With aircraft, the enginge controls (on twins/multi) are nect to each other. On
> rigs, the handles should stay on their respective sides.
If the situations were the same - the left handle opened the "left" parachute and vice versa - I would agree. That's intuitive. However, imagine a throttle quadrant on a single engine plane with three identical levers, one for mixture, one for throttle and one for prop, all in the same place. That would, ergonomically speaking, be a mistake. A better plan would be to make the three levers feel different to prevent accidental featherings and such.
And even that isn't a great example, because generally speaking, all levers forward will get you out of most situations where you need maximum power.
>That has got to be very rare, concious enough to decide to pull reserve instead of
> main and pull a hard handle but not concious enough to pull a pillow.
It was not an issue of consciousness but of strength. She had dislocated her shoulder and had very little strength in her arm. She could definitely not reach her BOC.
>My point was if the cutaway handle is harder to pull then the reserve handle and
>a pillow works for the cutaway handle, then a pillow will defiantely work for a >reserve handle because it is easier to pull.
Given that there have been several severe injuries/fatalities caused by hard cutaways, I would not use that as evidence that a similar arrangement will definitely work for reserves. There are mechanisms that cause both hard cutaways and hard reserve pulls. Again, that doesn't mean that you must have a metal D-ring, but I would suggest that there's a lot of room for improvement over the typical floppy padded pillow.
-bill von

[RichM 0]

Also, lets not forget that it has only been in recent years that freeflying has achieved a large following (the ratio is irrelevant). The soft reserve pad reduces the chances of accidental premature reserve deployment, which is dangerous anyway let alone at 180mph.
Rich M

[Hooknswoop 19]

">My point was if a pillow handle works for a cutaway handle, why do you need a
>better grip on the reserve handle which is easier to pull? I don't think grip on a
> pillow has been a factor in hard pulls.
I know it has been a factor on tandem hard pulls, which is one reason the pocket is now used. An "open" handle allows several hand positions that allows you to maximize your leverage - a soft closed handle allows only one."
I agree the pocket on a pillow handle makes it easier to grab and is a good idea. I've found the tandem handles harder to pull because of their position (high and outboard).
>I don't think I have ever heard a story where someone experienced a hard pull and
> couldn't get a good enough grip on a pillow handle.
I think they are related. Your arms are stronger in some positions than others."
But is your grip stronger in different positions? I can make a tight fist regardless (within reason) of how I position my arm.
">With aircraft, the enginge controls (on twins/multi) are nect to each other. On
> rigs, the handles should stay on their respective sides.
If the situations were the same - the left handle opened the "left" parachute and vice versa - I would agree. That's intuitive. However, imagine a throttle quadrant on a single engine plane with three identical levers, one for mixture, one for throttle and one for prop, all in the same place. That would, ergonomically speaking, be a mistake. A better plan would be to make the three levers feel different to prevent accidental featherings and such.
And even that isn't a great example, because generally speaking, all levers forward will get you out of most situations where you need maximum power."
How about fighters, stick in right hand, throttle in left. How often do fighter pilots dive their aircraft when they meant to throttle up? Or cut the power when they meant to climb? The controls feel different, the controls in the front seat of a Cobra, AH-1 feel very similar without confusing the two.
">That has got to be very rare, concious enough to decide to pull reserve instead of
> main and pull a hard handle but not concious enough to pull a pillow."
It was not an issue of consciousness but of strength. She had dislocated her shoulder and had very little strength in her arm. She could definitely not reach her BOC."
I'm a little confused, I assume you mean she dislocated her right shoulder and left arm/shoulder was OK. Should have no problem pulling reserve handle, pillow or hard.
>My point was if the cutaway handle is harder to pull then the reserve handle and
>a pillow works for the cutaway handle, then a pillow will defiantely work for a >reserve handle because it is easier to pull.
"Given that there have been several severe injuries/fatalities caused by hard cutaways, I would not use that as evidence that a similar arrangement will definitely work for reserves. There are mechanisms that cause both hard cutaways and hard reserve pulls. Again, that doesn't mean that you must have a metal D-ring, but I would suggest that there's a lot of room for improvement over the typical floppy padded pillow."
I have two rigs w/ pillows for both cutaway and reserve handle. One has plastic stiffeners to keep the handles pointed inboard and help prevent folding either pillow under when putting the rig on. It also has a metal ring surrounded by padding and cordura on the reserve handle. I have 6 cutaways w/ these handles and no problems. They do feel different. The other has pipe inserts in the handles and they feel the same. They don't have the plastic inserts. I haven't pulled these for real yet, but I am comfortable with this set-up also. I have found very few gear choices that are not a trade-off of some sort. I agree they can be improved upon.
This is almost as much fun as sitting around the DZ w/ a few beers discussing this stuff :-)
Hook

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

">My point was if a pillow handle works for a cutaway handle, why do you need a
>better grip on the reserve handle which is easier to pull? I don't think grip on a
> pillow has been a factor in hard pulls.

Here is something that I have not yet read in this thread as a good reason not to go with pads on the reserve side:
Simple grip strength is plenty of reason that it would be "harder" to pull that reserve pillow even though there might be considerably more actual force needed to activate your cutaway system. Until last year when I broke two fingers on my right hand at Quincy, my left grip was substantially less than my right. Now, they are about the same no matter how much I squeeze the clay they gave me at occupational therapy.
I can tell you that while I got both handles pulled OK, it WAS a bitch to get that reserve pillow unseated and pulled on the ride I took a couple of weekends ago. That I had made five BirdMan flights that day in quick succession may have been a factor, as you definitely use different arm muscles to maintain the best aerodynamic form. SERIOUS 4 and 8-way guys can definitely relate to the feeling; being so smoked from spinning blocks that you can barely pull your BOC.
I only have a pillow on one of my Javelitos (my pondswoop/birdman rig), and if nothing else, I will get a pillow with a pocket on it to replace the one I currently have.
Chuck
My webpage HERE

[billvon 2,406]

>But is your grip stronger in different positions? I can make a tight fist regardless
> (within reason) of how I position my arm.
No question at all about that. I can easily hang from a bar. It's much harder to hang from a climbing grip on a ceiling.
>How about fighters, stick in right hand, throttle in left. How often do fighter pilots
>dive their aircraft when they meant to throttle up?
Probably very seldom - but I have never seen a stick that looked like the throttle on the other side.
>Or cut the power when they meant to climb? The controls feel different, the
> controls in the front seat of a Cobra, AH-1 feel very similar without confusing the
> two.
Really? The collective feels like the cyclic? If so, that's unlike any other helicopter I've seen.
>I'm a little confused, I assume you mean she dislocated her right shoulder and
> left arm/shoulder was OK. Should have no problem pulling reserve handle, pillow
> or hard.
Dislocated right shoulder, back injury, and she was sorta stunned. She didn't get the reserve out until about 800 feet. (beat the cypres, but it fired.)
>I have found very few gear choices that are not a trade-off of some sort. I agree
> they can be improved upon.
I think there's nothing _inherently_ wrong with going away from a hard metal D-ring for the reserve, but personally, I have not seen a closed soft reserve handle yet that I like. I think the idea needs a little more work.
-bill von

[apoil 0]

Quote

Why you would want a soft ripcord handle is a concept that I have not grasped in 25 years of skydiving.

Hmm... in my first year of skydiving my D ring was kicked loose in freefall during a sit train exit.
Then I read about someone else who grasped the concept. Actually it was a head down flyer who grasped his D ring during docking drills. He died from the resulting high speed deployment.
Same thing happened to a friend of mine, only he managed to survive the opening, but not without injury and severe damage to his gear.
I've also seen someone do a floating exit from a helicopter but his Dring snagged on the door handle. Gives a new interpretation of "Reserve Static Line."
What you use is completely a matter of personal choice, but your 25 years of non-graspitude is indicative of being set in your ways, prejudiced and myopic rather than wise and experienced.

[billvon 2,406]

>Then I read about someone else who grasped the concept. Actually it was a
> head down flyer who grasped his D ring during docking drills. He died from the
> resulting high speed deployment.
I agree that soft handles can help mitigate this problem, but keep in mind that the primary issue here is that a jumper intentionally exceeded the limits of his gear. Rigs are designed to survive inadvertant openings when used within their limits; you take additional risks when you intentionally exceed them.
-bill von

[RichM 0]

Bill, please could you explain what limits you are referring to here?

[PhreeZone 15]

Speed.... Reserves are generally rated to X pounds at 120 knots. Well.... most freeflyers are at 130 knots plus. The extra force on the gear can easly destroy the gear and the jumper if the force of the opening is not spread across a large enough distance/time.
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[billvon 2,406]

Speed and weight. Exceeding a rig or reserve's maximum weight or speed limits can cause reserve to open fatally hard, can damage rigs, and can cause unrecoverable malfunctions. You can do it - many people do and get away with it for years - but there is a risk.
-bill von

[RichM 0]

Does you comment relate specifically to the above incident, or is it generally the case that kit is rated at 120 knots. If the latter then in general are rigs made for flat flyers only, and not freeflyers? Is the kit industry that far behind the requirements of todays skydivers? I hope you're about to explain where I have got it all wrong :)
Rich M

[PhreeZone 15]

The most popular version of TSO on reserves is rated to X pounds at 120 knots. So yes... the requirements only state that it has to hold to that in testing to get approved. Look at the actual TSO requirements or Bill Booth can really explain them, but basically.... any time you go freeflying if your reserve deploys at those speeds its beyond the limits that it HAS to with stand. If it holds great... other wise its not the gears fault, its yours for not following the requirements of the manufactor.
On of the big things with reserves is the requirement for min inflation distance. Its really hard to slow a body from 150 knots to 12 knots over 300 feet with out increasing the risk of harm. 120 to 12 is still a lot, but the force is lots less then 200+ knots like what some jumpers fly at.
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[GrumpySmurf 0]

I would be curious to see that as freeflying becomes increasingly popular/accepted if the canopy manufactures will investigate new reserve designs that can withstand a headdown deployment, yet will open quickly from a cutaway (something in which the openning speed is inversely proportional to the deployment speed - or a design that can simply take a 150 mph deployment without exploding?) - of course the simple answer would be to be vigilant in gear checks and if you have a rig that presents a snag point for freeflying or the tuck tabs are worn, have it fixed. But still curious to see if any innovation is moving to accomdate this relatively new discipline in terms of reserves (we are already seeing freefly friendly rigs and mains).

[billvon 2,406]

>I would be curious to see that as freeflying becomes increasingly
>popular/accepted if the canopy manufactures will investigate new reserve designs
> that can withstand a headdown deployment, yet will open quickly from a
> cutaway . . .
They are doing just that as we speak. As the people involved asked me not to discuss details I won't, but look for some new designs in the coming years.
-bill von

[Hooknswoop 19]

"Here is something that I have not yet read in this thread as a good reason not to go with pads on the reserve side:
Simple grip strength is plenty of reason that it would be "harder" to pull that reserve pillow even though there might be considerably more actual force needed to activate your cutaway system. Until last year when I broke two fingers on my right hand at Quincy, my left grip was substantially less than my right. Now, they are about the same no matter how much I squeeze the clay they gave me at occupational therapy.
I can tell you that while I got both handles pulled OK, it WAS a bitch to get that reserve pillow unseated and pulled on the ride I took a couple of weekends ago. That I had made five BirdMan flights that day in quick succession may have been a factor, as you definitely use different arm muscles to maintain the best aerodynamic form. SERIOUS 4 and 8-way guys can definitely relate to the feeling; being so smoked from spinning blocks that you can barely pull your BOC. "
Would you jump w/ your right hand in the condition your left hand was in? If you dis-located your shoulder on opening and had a mal, would you have been able to pull the cutaway pillow with your left hand and then pull the reserve pillow, without taking too much time?
I don't think anyone is arguing that pillows are harder to get a solid grip on that hard handles, just that the grip you can get on a pillow is sufficent and that the snag resistance over the hard handle is a very attractive reason to use a pillow for the reserve handle in addition to the cutaway handle.
like almost everything in skydiving, it is a trade-off, a liitle harder to grab, but less likely to snag.
I have seen floating hard handles, but I haven't seen a floating pillow.
Hook

[crazy 0]

Quote

> Why you would want a soft ripcord handle is a concept that I have not grasped in 25 years of skydiving.
Hmm... in my first year of skydiving my D ring was kicked loose in freefall during a sit train exit.
Then I read about someone else who grasped the concept. Actually it was a head down flyer who grasped his D ring during docking drills. He died from the resulting high speed deployment.
Same thing happened to a friend of mine, only he managed to survive the opening, but not without injury and severe damage to his gear.

I guess this is me. Right, i destroyed my rig and it's still painful more than 2 years after. But i still use a large D-ring.
You're right, there is a problem: people accidentally snagging your reserve handle. But there are at least two types of solutions. A passive one: make the handle less likely to snag. An active one: educate yourself and the people you jump with.
Educating yourself (and the people jumping with you) has no possible drawback (as long as you're not too lazy and not prone to complacency), so there is no reason (and no excuse) for not doing it. In my case i think it's good enough.
Soft reserve handles might have possible drawbacks (including no/late pulls, but also additional types of accidental pulls) and its efficiency is far from proven (there are accidental pulls of cutaway pillows in freefall). If i was used to have a backup device to open my reserve if i fail to pull, maybe i would change my mind. Or maybe, if there were more candidates to play chicken with soft handles... ooops sorry, this is the safety forum :-)

Quote

What you use is completely a matter of personal choice, but your 25 years of non-graspitude is indicative of being set in your ways, prejudiced and myopic rather than wise and experienced.

You're definitely right, it's a matter of personnal choice. Unfortunately, for many people it is not a wise and experienced choice, it is the choice of somebody else. There are people prejudiced and myopic on both sides and it can be quite difficult to fully understand what are the real risks.

Come

[faulknerwn 36]

Realize that there is another option between a pillow and a standard d-ring. On all of my Racers I have a "small" d-ring - its the same height as the standard, but about 1/3 the width - i.e. it doesn't stick out very far. I've got over 2000 jumps on this setup with numerous reserve rides (I do CRW) and never a problem pulling it. Its much less likely to be snagged by inadvertent feet or hands as well because of its smaller size. It seems to be a much bigger size.
As far as folding under - ask Rick Horn who was saved by his RSL when his reserve pillow folded under and he couldn't get to it.

[Hooknswoop 19]

"As far as folding under - ask Rick Horn who was saved by his RSL when his reserve pillow folded under and he couldn't get to it. "
His cutaway pillow could have just as easily been the handle to fold under. Does that mean pillows for cutaway handles are bad? Again, if pillows are so bad, why are they used as cutaway handles on 99% of the rigs out there? If they work as cutaway handles, why not reserve handles?
Hook

[billvon 2,406]

>His cutaway pillow could have just as easily been the handle to fold under. Does
> that mean pillows for cutaway handles are bad?
Yes! They are not as good as they could be. The strong tandem cutaway handle is an improvement, for example (stiffener/finger pocket.)
>Again, if pillows are so bad, why are they used as cutaway handles on 99%
>of the rigs out there?
Why are so many PC's made wrong? Why do so many rigs not have hard housings in their riser cutaway cable channels? Why did some rig mfrs use soft housings for years? Because, in most cases, people just didn't think enough. In many cases, the problem has persisted for years and years.
-bill von

[billbooth 10]

"Again, if pillows are so bad, why are they used as cutaway handles on 99% of the rigs out there?"
Although I designed the "soft pillow" handle for the 3-ring release in the first place, I won't get into the discussion (too much) about whether it makes a good reserve handle for freeflyers. Most decisions in skydiving are tradeoffs, and this is certainly one of them. However, I do think a pillow makes a better cutaway handle than a reserve handle, simply because, where the pillow is in a cutaway situation, is much different from where it is in a reserve pull situation. Think about it. In almost all situations where a cutaway is needed, you're hanging from your main risers, and your main lift web, where your cutaway pillow sits, is pulled up and away from your body, so your cutaway pillow is literally right in front of your nose. Now think of where your reserve handle is in a total malfunction. It's down below your armpit, tucked tightly against your body, maybe even UNDER the webbing, and more than a little bit hard to see, especially if you're wearing a full face helmet. Now think how much a reserve pillow handle feels like your harness, or a fold in your jumpsuit, especially if you're wearing gloves. Now picture yourself low, out of time, and in desperate need of a reserve handle that you can't see or feel. Aren't you glad you bought that Cypres?

[Hooknswoop 19]

>His cutaway pillow could have just as easily been the handle to fold under. Does
> that mean pillows for cutaway handles are bad?
Yes! They are not as good as they could be. The strong tandem cutaway handle is an improvement, for example (stiffener/finger pocket.)
>Again, if pillows are so bad, why are they used as cutaway handles on 99%
>of the rigs out there?
Why are so many PC's made wrong? Why do so many rigs not have hard housings in their riser cutaway cable channels? Why did some rig mfrs use soft housings for years? Because, in most cases, people just didn't think enough. In many cases, the problem has persisted for years and years.
I don't think "not as good as it could be" = bad. What skydiving gear is as good as it could be? How many rigs in use today are perfect? Everything is continuesly being improved upon by great manufacturers. Can the pillow be improved upon?, Yes. In it's current form "bad"? I don't think so. It a pillow reserve handle the right choice for everyone? No. Is it a good choice for some? I think so, yes.
Hook

[billvon 2,406]

>I don't think "not as good as it could be" = bad.
Well, people have funny definitions about what's good and bad. There have been a few fatalities and near-fatalities caused by twisted-riser cable lock; yet there's been no clamor for hard housings in risers. On the other hand, have a few collapses on 3:1 loaded canopies, and there's talk of banning them. (Presumably to replace them with _another_ 3:1 loaded canopy that is 'safe', a concept that seems odd applied to such a canopy used for blade running and swoop competitions etc.)
>Can the pillow be improved upon?, Yes. In it's current form "bad"? I don't think
> so. It a pillow reserve handle the right choice for everyone? No. Is it a good
> choice for some? I think so, yes.
I agree with your general idea, but to me, a soft reserve handle is a rather significant reduction in one kind of safety (easy access to and deployment of reserve) for an increase in another kind (prevention of accidental deployment during collision.) I liken this to another common thing I hear:
"Well, when I had 100 jumps, and jumping in really bad winds, I was backing up under an XXX 210, so a XXX 97 is safer."
That sort of statement doesn't make much sense. It suggests that the proper remedy is to jump a small canopy instead of making the more boring but far better decision to simply not jump in high winds. Similarly, if there's a problem with collisions in freefall, I would think that step 1 would be to avoid such collisions by choosing loads where they are unlikely to occur. Changing gear to prevent deployments during collisions seems a little backwards. While there are cases it might make sense to do, I think those cases are far in the minority.
One of the reasons I post about this a lot is that it bugs me that most skydivers believe very strongly that they are better than 99% of the other skydivers out there. They will never need RSL's because they can pull their own reserves. The people who can't are idiots who might need a crutch like an RSL. They can safely land a Stiletto 97 way earlier than most people because, well, they're just better at canopy flight, and they pull high a lot. They don't have to worry about line twist cutaway failures because they can pull stable. Even AAD use - although many jumpers now use an AAD, they buy it "in case I get knocked out," presumably an event outside their control. Still, 90% of cypres firings happen due to people simply forgetting to pull.
Part of this, I think, is a false impression of what an emergency in skydiving is. Most new jumpers have a very rosy impression of a mal - they will look up, note a lineover, pull their cutaway handle, take a nice 2 second delay that feels just like a balloon jump, open their reserve, and land after a (short) surf in the peas. After all, that's what their training led them to believe. And while that happens sometimes, far often mals are spinning, messy, high speed things that require good reactions and, sometimes, help from your gear. Being able to claw around to find a now-invisible reserve handle in a mass of blowing fabric might make such a mal more surivable.
I'm not saying no one will benefit from a soft handle - some jumpers may indeed have good reason to use them. It really bothers me, though, that new jumpers, who have never cut away, never opened their reserve, never even _touched_ their handles in freefall, are happily buying soft handles because that's what Omar has. That's not a good enough reason. And if that soft handle makes them think that they are now more prepared to go head down and collide with people? That handle just did them a lot more harm than good.
-bill von

[Hooknswoop 19]

Excellent post, bill, thanks.
Hook

[R00tj00se 0]

Part of this, I think, is a false impression of what an emergency in skydiving is. Most new jumpers have a very rosy impression of a mal - they will look up, note a lineover, pull their cutaway handle, take a nice 2 second delay that feels just like a balloon jump, open their reserve, and land after a (short) surf in the peas. After all, that's what their training led them to believe. And while that happens sometimes, far often mals are spinning, messy, high speed things that require good reactions and, sometimes, help from your gear.
...sometimes you need a bit of luck too!

[MarkM 0]

Quote

Similarly, if there's a problem with collisions in freefall, I would think that step 1 would be to avoid such collisions by choosing loads where they are unlikely to occur. Changing gear to prevent deployments during collisions seems a little backwards. While there are cases it might make sense to do, I think those cases are far in the minority.

Risk avoidance is definately the best system for keeping safe. Be realistic about your limitations and avoid situations you're not prepared for. But I think you also have to be honest about your personality and make gear choices that play into that.
I know people who put 20-30k miles on their motorcycle chains because they're a stickler for cleaning. I'm not, so from the get go I know I'll be change mine out at around 7-10k to minimize my risk of it breaking. The "right" thing to do might be to just promise to clean my chain more often, but realistically I'm probably safer just swapping it out sooner.
For some people, avoiding loads that have a high probability of collisions may not be realistic for their personality. So they work on another ways to reduce risk.
Swooping might be another example. Some people are going to swoop, they just have the personality that craves it. Promising themselves they "won't ever swoop" and getting a canopy around that decision may be more harmful than accepting that they'll probably eventually start swooping and should pick a canopy more safely in tune for learning it.