Complacency and cockiness

[nacmacfeegle 0]

For sure Steve1, you don't want a funnel.
As you prolly know its lauch, break off dump, hardly a skydive at all.....But if you trust your compadres, and everyone is cool n groovy, it can be done safely.......
Cya
D
GR# 37
Remember how lucky you are to see and touch the sky; the blind may only dream.

[freeflir29 0]

I have done some sit flying from 2400. Lowest exit to date is 1800. 2100 is plenty to geek the camera SHORTLY and then get stable and dump. Ummm....Skreamer.....the GET STABLE was the important part. "Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[kopelen 0]

"Lowest exit to date is 1800"
What are you thinking??
1. I hope you are not an instructor
2. If you are I also hope that your students don't see this sh*t
3. I guess the SIM doesn't apply to you.
4. What kind of example are you setting for other skydivers?
If this 1800' exit was due to aircraft problems I could see it, but not voluntarily.

[rgoper 0]

SIM, no SIM, instructor or not, if he did it at his home DZ, and it got by the S&TA, hey....what the hell!
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[PhreeZone 15]

This is coming from the same person that is always preaching on here about safety above anything else and a "Chain" of "events" and stuff like that?
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[rgoper 0]

**This is coming from the same person that is always preaching on here about safety above anything else and a "Chain" of "events" and stuff like that?**
yep. my whole point here is it's his life, and he can't hurt anyone else. skydiving is dangerous, if you can't except that, don't get on the jumpship. if you choose to "raise the danger level" this is a personal decision, not one that should be open for criticism from others, UNLESS he would be endangering someone else's life. do i want to see someone do this, no, of course not. would i object to it if i were an S&TA, you bet your ass, if i were the pilot, would i allow it, hell no. but if he got permission to do it, and there were no objections from his S&TA, DZO, pilot, hey? oh, and just for the record, do i believe it's safe, and would i do it? of course not, unless in case of an aircraft emergency. and am i safe? yes, to the point of being anal, just ask anyone that jumps with or around me. but, i gotta tell ya, if ol' clay wants to bail low, he'll get no objection from me, he knows what he's doing, well, most of the time anyways! Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[billvon 2,400]

>If this 1800' exit was due to aircraft problems I could see it, but not voluntarily.
Keep in mind that a hop and pop at 1800 feet is roughly equivalent to a freefall opening of 2500 feet due to the slower initial freefall speed - you have the same amount of time to deal with problems opening at both altitudes. Also, the aircraft altimeter is many times more accurate than yours, so you are a lot more assured that you are pulling at 1800 feet and not 1800 +/- 300 feet.
-bill von

[billvon 2,400]

>we launched a three-way from under 2,500 ft.
Yep, I made a similar mistake once . . . they talk about it every year at Lost Prairie. "The Cypres Load."
-bill von

[freeflir29 0]

Thanks Bill.....it really isn't crazy to get out at 1800 and in fact I would have no problem with 1500. IF I had packed accordingly, which I did on that jump. My Stilletto will open in 300-500 Ft no problem and should I have a mal 1000 Ft is plenty to get a reserve out and land safely. Just remember that this is low speed stuff and not coming down from free fall. It's very differen't. The SIM is just a suggestion....not law...."Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Here here, and amen chaps.....I reckon many AFF grads need to do some low hopnpops so they are ready for a real low one someday.
And remember in some countries I've jumped in, they say "que?" when you mention things like SIMs (peculiar to America I believe)...Cya
D
GR# 37
Remember how lucky you are to see and touch the sky; the blind may only dream.

[steve1 5]

Bill,
They had another cypress load at Lost Prairie last year. A group went way low for whatever reason and at least two cypresses fired. One of these guys was having trouble getting both canopies to fly right and cut his main away at under a hundred feet. His reserve wasn't fully open when he hit the ground. They hauled him out in an ambulance. I never did hear how badly hurt he was. I think it was a back injury. The entire group was later chewed out for going low. I guess this is what happens when people get complacent or cocky. (Or just pushing the limits too far.) It can be fun till something like this goes wrong. Steve

[billvon 2,400]

> Just remember that this is low speed stuff and not coming down from free fall.
The plus to that is you have more time and are more aware of altitude. The minus is that, even if you pack differently, your canopy will open more slowly, and even if it eventually does open, you may lose more altitude than you do normally before you can fly it - and exiting low, you may need that altitude. Of course, if you're using a Cessna and can spot to within ten feet (which is certainly doable from 2000 feet) that issue isn't a big one.
>The SIM is just a suggestion....not law....
While that's true, I think you need a pretty good reason to break them in general. Most of them were written in blood.
>I have gotten out of C-130's at 700-800 Ft plenty of times...
To be fair, military jumps are done with entirely different priorities, gear and risk analyses than sport jumps. A 700 ft exit altitude may well be planned to avoid a long canopy ride and resulting vulnerability to gunfire, or may be desirable to make round-canopy spotting procedures less error prone - neither of which really apply to sport parachuting.
-bill von

[billvon 2,400]

>They had another cypress load at Lost Prairie last year.
Maybe they'll stop talking about us every year . . .
>A group went way low for whatever reason and at least two cypresses fired.
We had a similar happening. From that incident I learned something very valuable - no matter what you think you will do, if you ever find yourself at 1000 feet, you _will_ open your main, not your reserve. Plan accordingly.
-bill von

[f1freak 0]

That's you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you’re into playin it close that’s cool, but we're talkin major malfunction here T Sparks

[steve1 5]

Bill,
Good point when you mentioned pulling your main below a thousand feet. Everyone knows that it would be better to pull their reserve but nearly everyone pulls their main instead. Probably because there isn't a whole lot of time to think and muscle memory kicks in. The closest call I ever had in skydiving was back in the seventies. On this jump noone was watching their altimeters or the ground. Cypresses and dytters weren't invented yet. I don't think I pulled until around 800 ft. and had canopy at about 500ft. Which did I pull? My main of course. Ground rush from that altitude is a thrilling sight! I thought I was dead for sure. It really made me realize the importance of altitude awareness. I'll also bet nearly everyone would pull their main instead of their reserve in a similiar situation (due to muscle memory). I hope noone is getting tired of hearing this same old jump story over and over again. It's the scariest one I know. Steve

[Cornholio 0]

Quote

, if you ever find yourself at 1000 feet, you _will_ open your main, not your reserve. Plan accordingly.

Muscle memory maybe, but it's definitely NOT the right thing to do.... that should be made very clear. If I'm at 1000' or below and nothing is out...my reserve is coming out - if I can overcome my muscle memory. I jump a Spectre and I have timed the openings - 1000' exactly ( from hand on hackey to all cells inflated)
- Matt
__________________________________________
If first you don't succeed....skydiving is not for you.

[billvon 2,400]

>Muscle memory maybe, but it's definitely NOT the right thing to do.... that
>should be made very clear.
I agree, but unfortunately it is what you will do. That's one reason I think some CRW training is pretty important for people with AAD's - it helps you deal with the two-out situation.
>If I'm at 1000' or below and nothing is out...my reserve is coming out -
>if I can overcome my muscle memory.
This happened to me twice. In one case, someone hung on to my right hand until 1200 feet. I started reaching for my reserve with my left hand, and he released my right just as I got my hand on the reserve handle. I could not stop my right hand - it opened the main.
The second time didn't happen to me, but on the previously-mentioned 4 way that went low. One of the jumpers (Lutz) commented we might go low, and I asked him what he would do if he got to 1000 feet without pulling. "Oh, I'd open my reserve," he said without hesitation. I figured this was a good bet, and since he was a current AFF-JM who taught jumpers that very procedure, he would actually do it if he needed to.
We jumped, we all went low, he got to 1000 feet, he opened his main. His cypres fired and he landed with two out.
So if a current AFF-JM who has thought about it before the jump, and realized he could go low, and actually goes low less than 10 minutes later can't keep himself from opening his main, and I couldn't even keep my hand from doing it when I was trying to - I think it's going to be very, very hard to do.
I think it's akin to telling a driver that, if someone jumps in front of him, and he knows he's not going to stop in time, do _not_ hit the brakes (for whatever reason.) Drivers are trained from day 1 to stop by using the brakes; we are trained to save our lives by opening our mains. It is a nearly impossible habit to break, especially when you have seconds to do it.
-bill von

[mountainman 0]

I did a hop-n-pop from just under 3k this past weekend. I thought it was NUTZ getting out that low. I got out and pulled immediately. I couldn't believe how much altitude that you really have since you're not terminal.
I guess the view out the window is a lot different at 3k since you can still see people walking around and the like. So, does anyone know what your actual vertical speed progression is when you jump?
For example, how much altitude have you fallen after one second, two seconds, three seconds.....etc. This would really interest me to figure out about how long you have from 3k to pull at 2200. Thanks guys! Btw......great thread.
JumpinDuo.com...news, pictures, skydiving and links.

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

For example, how much altitude have you fallen after one second, two seconds, three seconds.....etc. This would really interest me to figure out about how long you have from 3k to pull at 2200. Thanks guys!

Generally, 9.8 meters/sec^2 - or 9.8 meters the first second, 19.6 meters the second second, 39.2 meters the third..., etc. This works until you start to approach terminal velocity.
9.8 meters = roughly 30 feet. So you fall roughly 30 feet the first second, 60 feet the second, 120 feet the third, 240, 480, etc. However, terminal velocity is somewhere around 600 feet/sec so your acceleration curve will start to flatten out after 6 seconds, roughly.
9.8 meters/sec^2 works perfectly in a vacume, but in our atmosphere it's mostly accurate for the first couple of seconds.
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[gale 0]

I'm just a lowely student but I've been told that it takes 12 seconds to fall your first 1000 feet. (A simple rule of thumb.)
Gale
Isn't life the strangest thing you've ever seen?

[Remster 24]

From the CSPA SIMs
Freefall time (sec) Total feet
1.............................16
2.............................62
3.............................138
4.............................242
5.............................366
6.............................504
7.............................652
8.............................808
9.............................971
10...........................1 133
11...........................1 309
12...........................1 483
After approx 12 secs, you reach 120 mph
Remster
Muff 914

[skreamer 1]

None of that really applies to a hop n pop. The following does :
Was it a *true* hop n pop (ie how soon after exit did you deploy?).
What are the opening characteristics of your main at your wing-loading?
What kind of pack job do you use on your main?
I am sure there are other factors, but those are definitely a couple of things to consider before doing a low lob because a sub-terminal opening can be rather slow. Thats one of the things I enjoy about hop n pops, the really soft openings.
Will
"Look before you jump, don't die until you're dead"

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

So you fall roughly 30 feet the first second, 60 feet the second, 120 feet the third, 240, 480, etc.

Remember, these are cummulative, so if you want to know how far you've gone after a certain time you have to add them up.
1...... 30
2..... (30+60) = 90
3.... (90+120) = 230
4.... (230+240) = 470
5.... (470+480) = 950
Also remember that this is only exactly correct in a vacume. I'd hate to dry to come up with a formula that considers drag.
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[Remster 24]

Quote

I'd hate to dry to come up with a formula that considers drag.

You really must, as it's the whole point... but you dont have too (look at my post a couple back)
Remster
Muff 914