My Thoughts on Jumping AADs

[Jasmin 0]

Ok we're getting a little absurd now. Its a matter of opinion, just like lanyards/RSL's, but there are things you really should enter into this equation.
My thought on it is: my life is worth more than a canopy, so I jump with a reserve. My life is worth more than most things, so I jump with a cypress.
My GF just had a cypress-save a few months ago now, and I can guarantee you that she thinks her life is worth more than the cost of an AAD! If you don't think people should jump with AAD's because they become "too reliant" on them, or because "you should be able to do it yourself" send me an e-mail and I'll put you in touch with a friend who passed out skysurfing, or 2 guys who had a collision whilst freeflying, or my friend who just plain lost awareness.
Even better yet, read the fatality reports of those who lost altitude or conciousness and thumped in.
Do you insure your home or your car or your health? Do you take out travel insurance? Why would you contemplate it? Beacuse s*** happens, and you don't always have a say in where or how it happens!
"It never happens to me" is a little too idealistic, don't you think?!

[bhale 0]

I have been jumping for 15 years. The majority of my jumps, for the past 8 years, are working jumps.
I would LOVE to put a cypress in each of my rigs. My problem, $$$. Is this a cop out, perhaps. I just can't afford them. Maybe they will become affordable for all one day!

[rgoper 0]

the thing that has always struck me is when it comes time for container selection, we think little about the costs, if it has all the options we want, and it looks kewel, the same with our main canopies, if it's what we want, and the colors are kewel, costs is generally no object. BUT since we have to have a container, and a canopy to skydive, and DON'T have to have an AAD, well that's a little different. every skydiver i've talked to, save a couple said they didn't fly a cypress because they costs too much, and they couldn't afford them, yet they drink gallons of beer, and smoke packs of ciggarettes a day. you can bet your ass if the dzo's and the bod of uspa decided they had to have them to skydive, i just bet there would be a lot of people "finding money" for an AAD. i'm not advocating AAD's, i'm merely trying to make a point to say for criminies sake, don't use the lame excuse you can't afford one. thoughts for the wise, and mortal.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[caseyusa 0]

is the 1 millionth chance worth $1,000 ?
My personal take on this- as a total newcomer- just from the people I hang around, and what I've heard...
when it comes time for me to buy my own rig...
cause its going to happen eventually-
I'll wait until I can fork over the cash for the complete deal.
But the thoughts earlier about Alt Awareness make sense to me too. Education is important. And I'm at the best dropzone for that!
---
It's like a farmer, out-standing in his field.

[caseyusa 0]

GrumpySmurf's "It's all about mitigation of risk (not removal of risk), "
I was so thinking that, but didn't have the word... mitigation! Thanks! The same thing goes true for terrorists on commercial planes. It'll never be 100% safe.. but every measure taken to increase security helps...
AAD's are kinda like a metal detector or bomb sniffing dog. :)
---
It's like a farmer, out-standing in his field.

[rgoper 0]

see attachement taken from wing suit forum, even though we plan on everything going right, it can go wrong. this skydiver did not make contact, but he could've. an AAD would have made a difference IF he were to have struck the aircraft. (theoretically)
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[rgoper 0]

damn! i hate when that happens! now the afforementioned jpeg.
<--------------------------
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[caseyusa 0]

MAN THAT'S CLOSE!
My first thought was... he owes SOMEBODY beer! Maybe a toast to the Big Guy Upstairs, Mother Earth, or whoever your spiritual backseat driver is.
thanks for the photo
---
It's like a farmer, out-standing in his field.

[skybytch 259]

Quote

don't use the lame excuse you can't afford one.

The only reason I have a Cypres right now is because a friend sold me one at a good price and agreed to take payments - small payments because he knows I can't afford to pay for it in full, even at a good price.
If he hadn't been willing to do this for me, I'd be jumping without a Cypres... because I can't afford one.
Not every skydiver makes the big bucks or has good credit; some skydivers struggle and sacrifice to afford to do a couple jumps per month on ratty old used equipment that should have been retired years ago. Saying that "I can't afford it is a lame excuse" is financial discrimination.
pull & flare,
lisa
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda sez

[rhino 0]

I am with you.. It took me 4 years to get the 1000 to buy a cypress for my racer.. We have an expensive sport here..
But when I got the money I didn't hesitate to get a cypress..
Blue Skies .....

[PhillyKev 0]

I think his point was that if you jump without a Cypress, the real reason isn't that you can't afford it. It's that you have decided the risk of jumping without one isn't enough to ground you until you can afford it. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that opinion. But you can't jump without a canopy and say you couldn't afford it. You're grounded until you can. To some people, Cypress is an absolute necessity not an option, just like a canopy. If you're jumping without one, for whatever reason, you don't have that same opinion.
Personally, I'll never jump without one (unless required due to low exit, etc.). Just because the one time I decide not to is the time I'll need it.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Saying that "I can't afford it is a lame excuse"

Yeah, but far too often i hear "I can't afford it" from people driving yuppy cars, with otherwise brand new gear. In fact, there's one specific dz.com'er who six monthes ago was driving a brand new Volvo, brand new Rig, the whole nine yards. When I heard him say he couldn't afford a cypres, I had to laugh.
I don't understand why people generally don't value AAD's more. We've lost too many friends because they didn't have one.
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[cloud9 0]

Quote

I don't understand why people generally don't value AAD's more.

I can answer this one fairly easy. Because too many people value them to much.
Many of the times you read in the fatality news a cypress might have made a difference. No one seems to see "might have" and assumes that it would have. I will say again if your unconscious and your cypress fires there is no guarantee that you will live. In fact the odds are stacked against you. Now granted without, there is no hope, but even with an AAD there is very little. Try a little experment, open one day with your eyes closed so you don't even know what direction your facing, and don't touch anything. Don't move in the harness don't steer your canopy don't touch anything and see where you land. Of course I mean control your landing but just see what you would have hit.( ok don't really try this but think about it) AAD's have saved lives and they have cost lives. I choose to jump with one. But the truth is its only in the weird event that I loose altitude awareness. I figure if I'm not conscious I'm probably going to die.
Its just risk management for a lot of people, and all of us do this everyday. We just don't think about it. If you never get over 25 mph in your car your chanes of being killed in a car wreck are almost nil. But would you be willing to see the speed limit lowered to 25? Of course not, because its worth the risk. It could be done but no one would go for it. Why it would just take to long to get where you want to go.

[bhale 0]

Since I started the "I can't afford one" argument, I feel obligated to state my financial situation. Yes, I have a brand new container, brand new canopy, several jumpsuits, most of the tools required to earn supplemental income on the weekends-to pay for two year old daughter's daycare/diapers/clothes, two vehicles, mortgage payment, etc...
I will agree, without hesitation, that if it were required, I WOULD find the money, somehow. Maybe a third job!!!
Can I afford two Cypresses-why have only one Cypress if you have two rigs (for work)-NO. Is this a lame excuse, I don't think so. Do I want a Cypress, hell yes, I have a family. I average 25 a jumps a weekend. I know the importance of having one. Can I afford one, no.

[rgoper 0]

**Yeah, but far too often i hear "I can't afford it" from people driving yuppy cars, with otherwise brand new gear.**
yes, this is more what i meant, also, saying you can't afford one, and smoking five hundred ciggarettes, and drinking oceans of beer, etc...kinda tells me where they're priorities are. i could understand someone saying they couldn't afford one, and STOP drinking, and smoking long enough to save money to buy one. it's like a lot of people i see, broke, homeless, standing on street corners with signs asking for money, but the mollie-moofers are smoking, and generally have a 40 on the curb with them, i don't get it. this IS NOT an arguement for the "have, and have nots" it's just cold, hard, harsh reality.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

Personally, I'll never jump without one (unless required due to low exit, etc.). Just because the one time I decide not to is the time I'll need it.

So I assume that you'll be taking a small vacation when your Cypres needs servicing at 4 & 8 years? Or will you continue to jump?
-
Jim

[PhillyKev 0]

I would hope/think at that time that I would have a second rig. And if not then I'd probably take that opportunity to do some demo's.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

Is this a lame excuse, I don't think so. Do I want a Cypress, hell yes, I have a family. I average 25 a jumps a weekend. I know the importance of having one. Can I afford one, no.

Hmmm.... At an average price of $17.50 a jump you could afford a Cypres if you were willing to take two weeks off. Here's the simple math:
* $17.50 * 50 = $875.00
I believe some folks are selling new Cypres' for ~$850.00
So, don't say you can't afford a Cypres, say you don't want to afford a Cypres. Even if you cut out 5 jumps each weekend and saved that money you could have a brand new Cypres in 10 weeks. Sorry, but in this case the "I can't afford it" excuse is lame.
-
Jim

[bhale 0]

Hmmm.... At an average price of $17.50 a jump you could afford a Cypres if you were willing to take two weeks off. Here's the simple math:
* $17.50 * 50 = $875.00
I should have clarified, that is an average of working jumps a weekend-getting paid. Can I afford one, no.

[rgoper 0]

just to try and put this in perspective, and i feel i've clarified my position on AAD's, if you want one kewel, if not that's your decision, but this "i can't afford one" i don't know, i'd rather hear, "i choose not to utilize an AAD" in any event, years ago (in the early 60's, and 70's) seatbelts were an "optional" piece of equipment on new automobiles, if my memory serves me correctly, a $40.00-$50.00 option, a lot of people would not buy a car with seatbelts because of the additional costs. now they're mandatory, and it'll set ya back $189.00 for getting busted for NOT wearing one. another example, carseats for children, hardly anyone utilized carseats for children until it was mandatory, did it matter how much it costs? no, but because it was required, and it would costs you additional money for not utilizing the safety equipment, i doubt seriously "i can't afford it" would be an accepted excuse.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[billvon 2,400]

>If you don't think people should jump with AAD's because they become "too
> reliant" on them, or because "you should be able to do it yourself" send me
>an e-mail . . .
I'll send you a post; better yet.
> and I'll put you in touch with a friend who passed out skysurfing, or 2 guys who
> had a collision whilst freeflying, or my friend who just plain lost awareness.
And I would put you in touch with a man who bought a cypres to save him if he screwed up, because he had serious doubts whether or not he could perform in an emergency. I would, but I can't - he died when he bailed out of a plane and pulled the wrong handle. His cypres didn't save him; in fact, his reliance on it helped contribute to his death.
If those 2 guys you mention went freeflying and didn't worry too much about collisions because they had cypreses - then I would suggest to them that a better solution to collisions than a cypres is to not have collisions.
Want to use a cypres? Great - it's an excellent piece of backup gear. But if you start skydiving as if you have one, it may just contribute to, rather than prevent, your death.
-bill von

[billvon 2,400]

>Can I afford two Cypresses-why have only one Cypress if you have two rigs (for
> work)
Because if you use one rig more than the other, you still get very good protection for the price. I have a main and a backup rig, and I have a cypres in the main one. I jump it 95% of the time, so I often have the benefit of having one.
-bill von

[bhale 0]

OK, I give up. I really just want someone to give me one.
I am cheap. I choose not to make the investment. Lame excuse. Sorry.

[gale 0]

"...he had serious doubts whether or not he could perform in an emergency..."
This may just be me, but I thought everyone worried about how they would handle an emergency until they had one. Do I practice my emergency procedures - yes, do handle touches - yes, mental rehersal - yes. Do do I wonder what I would do if it really happened - yes.
I understand the point you're trying to make. He bought a Cypres for a bad reason and it harmed him because he did so, but I'm just wondering if his fears were all that unusual.
Gale
Isn't life the strangest thing you've ever seen?

[Jasmin 0]

You missed the entire point of what I was saying, both were proficient freeflyers. They were NOT relying on their cypresses to save them, however in the unfortunate and unexpected case of a collision where one person is knocked unconcouss, a cypress is a wonderful thing...
We shoudn't think that our cypress will save us, because there is the chance that it won't.
What I'm trying to stress is: fly like you don't have one, get a surprise if you have no other way out (eg knocked out) and it saves your rear.
If you don't tust yourself to be able to deal with a malfunction you shouldn't be jumping. If you can't deal with it, pray that your AAD is going to work, but in the meantime FIGHT for your life.