What aren't all new rigs made "freefly" friendly?

[matttrudeau 0]

I was wondering why all new rigs aren't made with the "freefly" modifacations? It seems like everyone would benefit from a safer rig. I can understand why the older rigs didn't have these modifacations because most people were flying RW. But now, even if you just belly fly, why not get a rig with all the new mods? And why don't manufacturers go ahead and make these safer modifacations? Money?

[skybytch 259]

Which containers are you talking about?

I'd freefly in any of the containers currently available on the US market.

[BPO 0]

Only the older models are not ff-friendly, I think.

Basically because 'back then' no-one planned to be in a not-RW position for more than a few seconds.

[matttrudeau 0]

Maybe I'm mistaken and all the manufacturers are doing it. I've seen racers, reflexes, and talons and I don't think they have all the mods. Most rigs don't have the integrated riser covers into the reserve flap etc...or the riser covers are very small and easily opened. Maybe the manufacturers have to do something to make themselves different. Otherwise, we'll all be jumping the same rig for an expensive price..

[Jib 0]

The only freefly mod I can think of is elastic between the leg straps.

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[skybytch 259]

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I've seen racers, reflexes, and talons and they don't think they have all the mods. Most rigs don't have the integrated riser covers into the reserve flap etc...or the riser covers are very small and easily opened.

Integrated riser covers are great for added security, but y'know what? They aren't neccessary as long as the flaps holding the riser channels closed stay put. And those flaps, even when they are small, are designed to stay put until it's time for them to open. The few that I've heard about coming open when they weren't supposed to usually had more to do with the distribution of the bulk of the reserve pack job than they did with the overall security of the flap design.

Each manufacturer had it's own issues to deal with as freeflying changed what jumpers wanted out of their containers. Each came up with their own solutions. They all work.

The Reflex was one of the first container designs to address several "freefly friendly" issues, primarily the issue of exposed bridle. I know jumpers who put thousands of freefly jumps on their Reflex's without ever having a flap open or a riser come out.

Talon's have been around for a loooong time. Which model are you referring to? I wouldn't freefly in a 1993 d.o.m. Talon but I would without a second thought in a Talon2 or a Talon 3.0.

Racer's have also been around for a long time, and not all of the current models have velcro. I'd freefly in a Racer with velcro though - as long as the velcro is kept in excellent condition it's not a problem.

[billvon 2,421]

> But now, even if you just belly fly, why not get a rig with all the new mods?

Because some increase your risk. If you don't have good grip strength, a soft reserve handle could kill you. Really tight riser covers can cause spinning mals and cutaway failure on highly loaded canopies, a scenario almost certain to mess you up.

But here's a question for you. Do you use a pullout? If not, why not? They are arguably better for freeflying.

[riggerrob 558]

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Most rigs don't have the integrated riser covers into the reserve flap etc
reply]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "integrated riser covers", but if you mean the small inner riser covers found on some rigs ....

At a recent PIA Symposium I asked Bill Booth why Vector 3s had them, but not Sigma. Bill explained that since Vector 3 has shallow main riser covers, near the toggles, they needed some additional toggle protection. Sigmas, have such deep riser covers that they do not need the extra protection.

By the same logic, early Voodoos had inner riser covers, but the latest Voodoos don't because the regular riser covers are already deep enough to protect the main toggles.

As for other "freefly friendly" features like tuck tabs ...
Tuck tabs are very difficult to design, then a field rigger distributes the reserve bulk in a way that never crossed the designer's mind - in his worst drunken nightmare - totally trashing all his dimensions.

Finally, as skybytch said, Velcro is "freefly friendly" provided you replace it occaissionally. No design is "freefly friendly" if you neglect maintenance.

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[matttrudeau 0]

I've never even thought about using a pullout. I'm not experienced enough for it. I'm confident with the throwout method so I'm staying with that. It must be a good method to use because very few people use throwout anymore.

[billvon 2,421]

>It must be a good method to use because very few people use throwout anymore.

You mean pullout? I think it's primarily a what-people-are-used-to issue. Student gear is becoming primarily throwout, and they are a bit easier to pack. Pullouts, however, give better protection against high speed deployments due to a loose handle; even a handle that gets knocked loose will not open the main. At speeds that will destroy a main that's a big safety issue.

In any case, you've just answered the question why all rigs aren't more freefly-friendly. Some people prefer less-freefly-friendly but more familiar systems like throwout. Others just like some systems over others; people swear by Javelins, Mirages etc.

[smooth 0]

In regards to the freefly friendly question . . .
ROL is still offered as an option on many rigs. Of course, this may go the way of belly-bands in the very near future.

[dreamsville 0]

On soft reserve handles: I purchased a rig that had one, and then some months later proceeded to have a spinning mal, after having done the handle checks (part of the check of 3) on this jump as well. I have analyzed why it spun up and what may have caused it, but that's off topic.

That yellow handle wasn't where it was supposed to be (it was visible and not tucked under on the plane) as I was cutting away, and wasn't further up the lift web where I would have expected it in the centrifugal force of a spin. The lift web felt OK as I was putting the rig on, BTW. I messed with the lift web with considerable emotion and the handle reappeared and I smartly pulled it. Landed softly in somewhat hostile farmer's field, as the spot left something to be desired.

Now, obviously this doesn't happen to everyone with a soft reserve handle. If it did, people wouldn't use them. I only know that on previous cutaways, all with a D ring, the handle was ALWAYS visible, yet not sticking away from the jump suit in a snag-prone fashion. I can only say that for me, that rig now has a D-ring reserve handle on it. That's my experience. It's up to others to use what suits them.
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I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[BMFin 0]

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On soft reserve handles: I purchased a rig that had one, and then some months later proceeded to have a spinning mal, after having done the handle checks (part of the check of 3) on this jump as well. I have analyzed why it spun up and what may have caused it, but that's off topic.

That yellow handle wasn't where it was supposed to be (it was visible and not tucked under on the plane) as I was cutting away, and wasn't further up the lift web where I would have expected it in the centrifugal force of a spin. The lift web felt OK as I was putting the rig on, BTW. I messed with the lift web with considerable emotion and the handle reappeared and I smartly pulled it. Landed softly in somewhat hostile farmer's field, as the spot left something to be desired.

Now, obviously this doesn't happen to everyone with a soft reserve handle. If it did, people wouldn't use them. I only know that on previous cutaways, all with a D ring, the handle was ALWAYS visible, yet not sticking away from the jump suit in a snag-prone fashion. I can only say that for me, that rig now has a D-ring reserve handle on it. That's my experience. It's up to others to use what suits them.
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I see your point, but lets remember that there are huge differences in soft handles between different manufacturers. IMO the handles in new mirages are way more safe than some other mfg´s handles might be.

I couldnt twist my reserve- or cutaway- handles hidden even if I wanted to. I think good handles are stiff and fat.

[VectorBoy 0]

[But here's a question for you. Do you use a pullout? If not, why not? They are arguably better for freeflying.

[billvon 2,421]

>I'll take that arguement I don't think they are any safer than well
>maintained modern container throw out and many freefliers that agree.

Hmm, a system that has _no_ exposed bridle or PC? I think history shows that the chances of a premature deployment on a pullout are much, much lower than the chances of a premature on a throwout, although both have their drawbacks (i.e floating pud vs PC in tow.) It may be that throwouts nowadays are good _enough_, but that's an example of where people use "good enough" instead of "best" - which also answers the original question. Some rigs may just be freefly friendly enough.

[AndyMan 7]

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But here's a question for you. Do you use a pullout? If not, why not? They are arguably better for freeflying.

Odd. In the Monkey-Claw freefly seminars at WFFC, they said that pullouts were completely unnaceptable for freeflying.

I'm not entirely sure I see the logic in either argument, though.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[hookitt 0]

>>Odd. In the Monkey-Claw freefly seminars at WFFC, they said that pullouts were completely unnaceptable for freeflying.

I'd gladly take that arguement up with the Claw. I find it odd f it's true they say that.. I'll take a pull-out any day.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[billvon 2,421]

>Odd. In the Monkey-Claw freefly seminars at WFFC, they said that
>pullouts were completely unnaceptable for freeflying.

I would be interested in hearing their reasoning.

[AndyMan 7]

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I'd gladly take that arguement up with the Claw.

It's possible I'm misquoting them. The lecture I'm thinking of was almost 2 years ago. I may be mistakenly thinking that the pull out was in the same discussion as ROL, which clearly does not belong in freeflying.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[hookitt 0]

I'd venture to guess they said Rear of Leg Throw out.

Now that IS unaccaptable for freefly.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[rigging65 0]

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Plus they are not recommended for wingsuit jumps.

A major reason they're not recommended is because of lazy throws. You can get a throw-out further away from you, and thus probably into better air (or so the theory goes). You may still get the bag onto your back wing if it's loose in the container, but that's another issue.

If you simply take the pullout to full arm extension (in the wingsuit), the air will take it away from you and then you know you got a good launch. I've jumped it this way some and diablopilot jumps his this way all the time (including his new Skyflyer 3...which is quite possibly the sweetest wingsuit yet made...glides forever!!).

I've got my pullout set up so I can change between throwout and pullout in about 1 minute, so I tend to opt towards the throwout when I fly my suit, but you certainly can jump a wingsuit with a pullout safely.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[blazetailman 0]

One of the oldest arguments/debates in skydiving.

pullout vs throwout.

Its like the lolli pop comercial where the kid asks the owl how many licks it takes to the get to the center of a totsi roll pop.

The world will never know. Which system is best. The one that works for you.

I've jumped both systems. Had 3 floating buds. found it each time. Luckly. I prefer a throwout now.

my 2bits

www.canopyflightcenter.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com

[hookitt 0]

I sent an Email out to the Members of Monkey claw to please read this thread Here is the response I recieved from Bert
======================
I cannot post, but I would appreciate it if you could respond on our behalf.

Perhaps the attendant of our seminar at WFFC may have mistaken our concerns regarding RSLs and Rear of Leg Deployment systems (ROL).

I do not believe we have ever made statements regarding the use of pullout deployment systems as unacceptable for freeflying. We have stressed in the past the necessity for tight fitting pin enclosures, minimal bridle exposure, and tight riser covers. In fact, we stress that BOC and pullouts are the mandated forms of deployment we require our students to posses prior to any MonkeyClaw coached jump. Should a student have a Rear of Leg deployment system, it is our policy not coach the student until they switch to either a BOC or pullout rig. Two members of our team have been jumping pullouts successfully for the majority of our careers, and I'm sure none of the other MonkeyClaw team members would consider PUDS unacceptable for freeflying.

Hope this helps,

Bert

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Watcher 0]

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it in the centrifugal force of a spin

Just so you know there is no such thing as centrifugal force. There is inertia which is commonly thought of as "centrifugal force" and there is centripital force which is center seeking force. What you expirence as "centrifugal" is just interia trying to keep its path and an outside force constantly changing its bath, pushing you away from the center.

Just thought you might want to know.

--

Jonathan Bartlett
D-24876
AFF-I

[VectorBoy 0]

I've got my pullout set up so I can change between throwout and pullout in about 1 minute, so I tend to opt towards the throwout when I fly my suit, but you certainly can jump a wingsuit with a pullout safely.