chriswelker 0 #1 November 21, 2002 I think the Group Membership program should be eliminated. If you look at the #'s the GM program can not support itself. It costs between $100 and $400 to become a GM DZ depending on the # and size of aircraft. I counted 220 GM DZ's from the USPA website and 36 foreign DZ's which only pay $100 regardless of the size of the business. Do the math I will use $400 as a base to keep it simple and to make a point. 220x400=$88,000+$3600=$91,600.As regular members we will be paying $49 each and $49x30,000(regular USPA members)=$1,470,000. Some of the GM DZ's say that their dues are too high.For roughly $33 a month if you are a GM DZ you get your DZ listed in Parachutists and on the USPA website. That is very inexpensive advertising if you ask me. By the way as our dues went up the GM's stayed the same. The regular members of the USPA pay 1.5 million and the GM's pay in $92K and they run the show. Decide for youself if you think this is fair. I don't. Blue Ones, Chris Welker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sonic 0 #2 November 21, 2002 but they're paying the same as everyone else, plus the extra, why not? I know it's paying for bragging rights and control but....----------------------------------- It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #3 November 21, 2002 What exactly does it cost to run just the GM program? How much are we putting out to support it? If elected, how do you propose to eliminate the GM program? Thanks - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 4 #4 November 21, 2002 QuoteWhat exactly does it cost to run just the GM program? How much are we putting out to support it? Last I heard (this may or may not be true) the GM program was losing money. However, you can bend the books to make it look anyway you want to make it look.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #5 November 21, 2002 QuoteLast I heard (this may or may not be true) the GM program was losing money. However, you can bend the books to make it look anyway you want to make it look. I don't think this is a new idea, since it's been made public that people think the GM program is losing money and it's never really been challenged, I'm willing to believe that it is. What I want to know though is HOW much money is it losing? It should be easy enough to figure out - total up the costs of all the benefits that the GMs receive and subtract that from the income they provide. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #6 November 21, 2002 What benefits do GMs get that do NOT benefit the general membership? I think it's going to be hard to seperate out the differences on some issues. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #7 November 21, 2002 I was wondering what the GM program is, exactly. What the USPA does for/with GMs, etc. I am picking it up piece by piece through the conversations and opinions here, but can someone put up an unbiased overview of what exactly the GM program is, what it entails, and why it exists? I'd appreciate it. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #8 November 21, 2002 While this page doesn't provide a complete breakdown of the GM program you can see at least some of what they offer. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #9 November 21, 2002 If the GM program is cancelled our dues will go up yet again as we pick up the slack. I figure it will be another $3 a person, unless we get rid of some people at USPA. Who would we get rid of? What services, specifically, do we cancel? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #10 November 21, 2002 The free advertising... sell it at full price again.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 4 #11 November 21, 2002 QuoteThe free advertizing... sell it at full price again. That wouldn't happen. That's kind of like software piracy - you have the software because it's 'free', only a small percentage would have the softare if they actually paid for it. On the upside, the magazine wouldn't be so full of advertisements that it's annoying to read.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #12 November 21, 2002 QuoteIf the GM program is cancelled our dues will go up yet again as we pick up the slack. I figure it will be another $3 a person, unless we get rid of some people at USPA. Who would we get rid of? What services, specifically, do we cancel? One thought would be to stop paying for temporary workers at USPA HQ at higer rates than hiring a permanent worker with benefits to do the same job. Just a thought. That could save some bucks. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #13 November 21, 2002 >The free advertising... sell it at full price again. You mean the DZ ads in the back of the magazine? You'd have to sell them at considerably more than $400/ad/year to make up for all the lost GM's and the tiny DZ's who wouldn't advertise in parachutist. No one would buy them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #14 November 21, 2002 >The regular members of the USPA pay 1.5 million and the GM's pay > in $92K and they run the show. >Decide for youself if you think this is fair. I don't I think it is completely fair in that we elect the entire BOD and the regional directors. We can do whatever we want with USPA. If we don't care, then the GM's run the show, which is how it should be - the people who care about USPA and its actions run it. We should not cancel a program just because people are too lazy to vote. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #15 November 22, 2002 QuoteWhile this page doesn't provide a complete breakdown of the GM program you can see at least some of what they offer. Thanks, Jimbo. I haven't made it through the whole thing yet, but am learning a lot. I appreciate the link! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #16 November 22, 2002 we are a club, let them join the PIA or set something up apart from the uspa. This would stop the conflict of interest between dzo's and fun jumpers. I'd pay $3 more because in the long run it will cost us less. I do not see all dzo's as evil but I do so things like the coach rating as a method to add to the profit of dropzones. Remember the uspa is suppose to keep skydivers skydiving, not ring every last buck from the students. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #17 November 22, 2002 >I do so things like the coach rating as a method to add to the profit > of dropzones. I see the coach rating as a way to implement the ISP, and I see the ISP as a good attempt at keeping skydivers alive. There is a huge training gap between AFF graduation and being an experienced jumper; most of the fatalities we see nowadays are from people not knowing advanced skills (like how to safely turn low or land downwind.) Keeping skydivers alive falls under the heading of "keeping skydivers skydiving." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #18 November 22, 2002 The coach program is just an offical training recommendation, nothing more. No DZ is required to use coaches if they don't want to. The training and programs are there to help the new jumpers, not make money for a DZ. I know a lot of people that chage nothing for coach jumps. How about all the DZ's that make Skydive U manditory to get off student status? They turn out jumpers that are better flyers and safer at 20 jumps then I was at 40. I think that keeps (new) skydivers skydiving. Most coaching I've seen is about $50 a jump. 20 for student slot, 20 for jumper slot, 5 for pack job for the jumper 5 profit. Where is the DZ getting any money at here? Personally... 30 for instruction in basic RW and canopy flying with a good proper debrief and well documented jumps is'nt that bad of a deal. I do it for free, but only since I've got the money to spend on taking lots of people up on their first few jumps.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #19 November 22, 2002 Quote I do not see all dzo's as evil but I do so things like the coach rating as a method to add to the profit of dropzones The coach rating doesn't add to the profit of dropzones. Almost universally, in my experience, a USPA coach jump nets the dropzone the coach's slot, and the student's slot. No more. Financially, it's just a normal two-way. A method to add to the profit of dropzones would be to require post-AFF Skydive University jumps at $60 to $80 each, or something like that. I was required to pay for several of those back when I learned to skydive. I would have learned a LOT more, and paid a lot less, to go through the current ISP instead.Skydiving is for cool people only Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #20 November 22, 2002 QuoteMost coaching I've seen is about $50 a jump. 20 for student slot, 20 for jumper slot, 5 for pack job for the jumper 5 profit. Where is the DZ getting any money at here? From what they charge SkydiveU in rent. If they didn't push business on them they might pack up and leave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
franck102 0 #21 November 22, 2002 QuoteThe coach program is just an offical training recommendation, nothing more. No DZ is required to use coaches if they don't want to. Not really true, non-licensed jumpers can only jump with coaches or instructors. If instructors are busy doing AFF or tandems students off AFF need coaches if only to complete their proficiency card. Franck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #22 November 22, 2002 They can do solos and this is actually waiverable from the STA anyways. And about the SKU... only about 5 places in the US have a SKU campus, how are the rest of the DZ's making money off the coach/ISP program?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #23 November 23, 2002 well from a couple of dz's I saw they were charging almost SDU rates. I never paid for a coach jump. I jump at SDU's main campus. It's a good deal if your in a hurry. However at my dz I found a group of mentors that only asked that I share what they taught me. You might learn skills but I believe only time will build a well rounded skydiver. And you can learn the same stuff fun jumping Quotehow are the rest of the DZ's making money off the coach/ISP program? By adding the cost of the jumps to aff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #24 November 23, 2002 >By adding the cost of the jumps to aff The prices at a lot of DZ's have never changed. I know ours have'nt changed for about 3 years. The DZ's profit by having jumpers that return time after time and are having fun constantly.you don't have ton's of fun only doing solo's. Is it better to get a lump sum of $25 added into the AFF program or countless profit since they stick around and make a few hundred jumps? You need people to jump with you. Not many people want to spend the time and money to bring a new jumper up to having the ability to do 4 ways. Some do and those people are usually the life body of DZ's. I teach basic RW to get them up to being able to do a 4 way.... then I take them to the Dark side... and next year... they'll do CRW too before I let them go [evil scientist laughter]Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #25 November 23, 2002 Quote You need people to jump with you. Not many people want to spend the time and money to bring a new jumper up to having the ability to do 4 ways. Some do and those people are usually the life body of DZ's. I teach basic RW to get them up to being able to do a 4 way.... then I take them to the Dark side... and next year... they'll do CRW too before I let them go [evil scientist laughter] well it was like 60 added for each jump. Part of the problem is some ppl don't want to give back to the sport but I believe there are more that will than will not. If you are a newbie, show up at the dz early. Show up at the dz the same day and time too. I think you'll find this will help you to get to know the "old timers" and you'll find yourself being adopted by them. oh and buy lots of beer for the old guys too! And do the crw thing too lol the real dark side Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
